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Yeah the problem with rebellions in Vicky 2 is that they usually ended up just being rebel whack-a-mole, where the only time they were ever seriously threatening is when they appeared in such vast numbers that they were dropping stacks of like 100k+ units on your capital and sieging it down before you could gather a large enough force to push them back. Which meant that rebellions basically were either "zero threat minor annoyance" or "instant revolution you have no ability to stop" and absolutely nothing in between.
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Jul 12, 2021 18:32
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I could see having most stuff usually attached to rebellions actually happening out of the players hands. Like interests groups fighting it out and taking/losing power and the only time it ever actually comes to warfare is if the player makes the choice to send in troops. And even then it doesn't actually break out on the map scale unless the associated groups the player is attacking is big enough to trigger a full on civil war. But giving interest groups the power to actually meaningfully hurt the country through strikes/protests etc to the point where the player would actually become tempted to start that fight. And of course the player having a lot of other tools to address that outside of force.
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Jul 12, 2021 18:44
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The Cheshire Cat posted:Yeah the problem with rebellions in Vicky 2 is that they usually ended up just being rebel whack-a-mole, where the only time they were ever seriously threatening is when they appeared in such vast numbers that they were dropping stacks of like 100k+ units on your capital and sieging it down before you could gather a large enough force to push them back. Which meant that rebellions basically were either "zero threat minor annoyance" or "instant revolution you have no ability to stop" and absolutely nothing in between. That's not entirely fair, there's also 'zero threat but enormous annoyance because you have to hunt down 100 small rebel stacks'
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Jul 13, 2021 11:55
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One thing Johan was right about is that if you’re automating a system for players, you should reconsider how that system works. The “hunt rebels “ button existing, while nice, points pretty strongly to that.
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Jul 13, 2021 14:01
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karmicknight posted:imagine such mismanagement that your own army units would rebel. “Be harmonious with each other, enrich the soldiers, and spurn all other men.”
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Jul 13, 2021 15:03
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Beamed posted:One thing Johan was right about is that if you’re automating a system for players, you should reconsider how that system works. The “hunt rebels “ button existing, while nice, points pretty strongly to that. I think this depends, and is more complicated than this. Basically does the automation in question serve a purpose in freeing the player to consider more interesting choices; improve the feeling of satisfaction they get from the game and so on. The micro in the army management system requiring automation doesn't obviously point to "Well eliminate having armies" as one possible extreme in a game set in a time period with its serious armed conflicts. Basically if the automation gave the player more broad ways of interacting with the system, like giving general orders which the system attempted to carry out and the player had the means to shape what the result ends up being that would be a good use of automation. Because the player on some level can understand the decision making within that system; can set about improving how it acts; and decide its direction while not having to do any tedious micro. I feel like Vicky is a game where a broader version of Hoi4's system might actually work really well and would suit the time period as the time period in which gunboats and smaller forces are sent places far from the capital. But yeah it really shouldn't be a regular occurrence to send your armies to deal with a constant insurgency throughout your country and in V2 there's no gradient between good and bad; its just suddenly there's a rebellion until there isn't.
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Jul 13, 2021 15:23
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I mean the problem is small rebellions that on their own aren’t a threat should absolutely be a thing. It should just cascade to bigger problems if not dealt with.
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Jul 13, 2021 15:25
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Crushing a rebellion militarily should come with the trade off of removing some pops (killed by the state) and royally pissing off related pops.
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Jul 13, 2021 15:45
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Capfalcon posted:“Be harmonious with each other, enrich the soldiers, and spurn all other men.”  Soldiers paychecks never bounced, admin and education budgets and building things be damned. VanSandman posted:Crushing a rebellion militarily should come with the trade off of removing some pops (killed by the state) and royally pissing off related pops. That is how it works in previous games, yeah.
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Jul 13, 2021 15:48
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CharlestheHammer posted:I mean the problem is small rebellions that on their own aren’t a threat should absolutely be a thing. It should just cascade to bigger problems if not dealt with. I'm not opposed but it should be handled differently and shouldn't be basically the first and basically only thing that happens. Basically a sort of minigame to handle "movements" which can break out into smaller rebellions but it shouldn't be the current system where its random chance based purely on militancy. Like I can imagine an insurrection that's constant and low intensity easily happening in colonial possessions but its also not necessarily fun to have to move troops around and fight battles they/the rebels have no hope in winning. Right now its like facing the Tet Offensive once every five to 10 years. Perhaps something not quite a province occupation but something with a little more teeth than "Criminal Syndicate"; where the "insurgency" has like a fort/base in the country side somewhere and you can move a regiment to clear it out; and you don't know its there immediately but need to be informed of it via its tertiary effects or through your information/intelligence networks. So you can around troops to scout for it and once you find them can clear them out and find out if it was just a weapons cache, a rallying point, an HQ etc with corresponding effects on the insurgency. At least this way if you forget to keep an eye on it for a while it just helps progress the next "phase" to be sooner but doesn't mean oops suddenly half your country is occupied by rebels while your armies stood around and did nothing!
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Jul 13, 2021 15:50
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Modeling rebellions as dudes with guns on the map having pitched battles with the professional army is just a terrible way to model all but the biggest of them. Having the army stomp a 2-regiment stack of irregulars should never even come up, the small-scale stuff should happen off the map and in the pop screen instead. Maybe apply a constant low-level attrition to both the military units in the state and militant rebel pops or something to represent the low-level simmer of the local rebels knocking over the occasional checkpoint but I don't think the little 3D dudes should start shooting at each other in full battles on the map until it's a full civil war level conflict.
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Jul 13, 2021 16:06
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Crazycryodude posted:Modeling rebellions as dudes with guns on the map having pitched battles with the professional army is just a terrible way to model all but the biggest of them. Having the army stomp a 2-regiment stack of irregulars should never even come up, the small-scale stuff should happen off the map and in the pop screen instead. Maybe apply a constant low-level attrition to both the military units in the state and militant rebel pops or something to represent the low-level simmer of the local rebels knocking over the occasional checkpoint but I don't think the little 3D dudes should start shooting at each other in full battles on the map until it's a full civil war level conflict. Yeah that's the thing. It's gotten better but ultimately Paradox has yet to make fun small rebellions. They need to exist but I never ever want to click back and forth on a stack to smash them, and clicking "hunt rebels" isn't more fun, it's just an automation for a bad system. Make the small rebellions something I notice or care about in an interesting way. Have actual decisions to make. Like in EU4 when you get a peasant rebellion. Options: Put stack in the highest dev province with militancy and wait Do the same then provoke Do the same but set the stack to pacify rebels Concede and now every single province gets massive autonomy and you lose 1/3 of your income None of these are fun or interesting. It's tedium and frustration only, and the obvious correct choice is just pop the (whole country's?) peasant revolt asap and kill them all in a pitched battle to go back to doing whatever you were doing. Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 16:20 on Jul 13, 2021 |
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Jul 13, 2021 16:16
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You missed the option of: Wait until the correct moment and concede to become a peasant republic. 
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Jul 13, 2021 16:52
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Crazycryodude posted:Modeling rebellions as dudes with guns on the map having pitched battles with the professional army is just a terrible way to model all but the biggest of them. Having the army stomp a 2-regiment stack of irregulars should never even come up, the small-scale stuff should happen off the map and in the pop screen instead. Maybe apply a constant low-level attrition to both the military units in the state and militant rebel pops or something to represent the low-level simmer of the local rebels knocking over the occasional checkpoint but I don't think the little 3D dudes should start shooting at each other in full battles on the map until it's a full civil war level conflict. There needs to be some kind of growing penalty for ignoring unrest, and a disincentive to just grant concessions. Otherwise we’ll all just grant whatever concessions are needed to make it less of a headache. For the Vicky2 era my impression is that uprisings were overwhelmingly failures that were successfully repressed with violence, usually by quite small numbers of people relative to the numbers of uprisers. I’m not sure why this was the case - presumably connected with modern communications allowing better force concentration as well as using accurate artillery as a force multiplier?
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Jul 13, 2021 17:43
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Beefeater1980 posted:There needs to be some kind of growing penalty for ignoring unrest, and a disincentive to just grant concessions. Otherwise we’ll all just grant whatever concessions are needed to make it less of a headache. edit: untrained poorly equipped rabble that do not necessarily want to die for their cause/were hoping there wouldnt be an actual fight
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Jul 13, 2021 17:48
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Hungary had a good shot at getting what they wanted in 1848 before Russian intervention and the Mexican Revolution actually succeeded. The Italians also had a very good chance in '48 before the SP king messed it up but that's part revolution/part invasion and idk how the heck PDS could model that. Also there's Russia ofc.
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Jul 13, 2021 17:58
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VanSandman posted:Crushing a rebellion militarily should come with the trade off of removing some pops (killed by the state) and royally pissing off related pops. I remember one Vicky 2 game where AI NGF was in constant death spiral regarding rebelions, and constant fighting and killing depopulated the country massively. I can't remember with how many pops the province of Cologne starts with, but it ended with ~500 people.
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Jul 13, 2021 18:08
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yikes! posted:Hungary had a good shot at getting what they wanted in 1848 before Russian intervention and the Mexican Revolution actually succeeded. The Italians also had a very good chance in '48 before the SP king messed it up but that's part revolution/part invasion and idk how the heck PDS could model that. Also there's Russia ofc. Hungary and Italy 48 were examples of revolutionaries seizing the apparatus of state and directing it to their goals though. Vicky traditionally has had revolutionaries doing anything require them to raise divisions and do pitched battles. The February 48 revolution was the closest to the style than the previous Vickies did. And there, like... It's not exactly well-depicted by having a massive stack of troops, so strong that all of the FRA tag can't muster enough to fight it, spawn in Paris.
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Jul 13, 2021 18:21
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I mean, the counter argument to that is that you are describing the literal population of paris taking up arms against the state.
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Jul 13, 2021 18:45
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It sort of works in Vicky 2 to some extent, where the rebels win by taking the capital, so they can rush that down and overthrow the government before you can really even react with the army (accurately representing at least a couple of revolutions to some extent), but it's still real jank even in that regard since you can just leave like a 30 stack on the capital to counter.Edgar Allen Ho posted:Like in EU4 when you get a peasant rebellion. Look at this fool, shunning EU4 rebel strats...
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Jul 13, 2021 19:10
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Hungary and Italy 48 were examples of revolutionaries seizing the apparatus of state and directing it to their goals though. Vicky traditionally has had revolutionaries doing anything require them to raise divisions and do pitched battles. It would be interesting I think to model these as giving free military access to other reactionary states to put down the rebellion and either you can declare war or accept the prestige loss. Avoids some cheekyness in multiplayer of people letting themselves get taken over. Another way of reflecting that with basically current mechanics is something similar to CK civil war mechanics but you can't declare war on the rebelling "state" to take land; only to put them down. Because letting them exist makes your own rebels worse which I think is what needs to be the key incentive.
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Jul 13, 2021 19:11
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karmicknight posted:I mean, the counter argument to that is that you are describing the literal population of paris taking up arms against the state. Yes. I'd say it wasn't a Vicky-style battle but we need the military and rebellion dev diaries to actually say that. It certainly wasn't a big field battle.
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Jul 14, 2021 00:17
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Gort posted:As a result you could get into situations that should be complete failure states (government forces outnumbered two to one by rebels, for example) and win crushing victories just because the enemy army composition was terrible. ... The government having an intact actual army that is outnumbered 2 to 1 (or even 10 to 1) by disorganized, badly equipped rebels is in no way a failure state. The expected outcome in that is a crushing government victory, as was shown multiple times during the time period in question. I know this site likes to roleplay revolution with the whole red-and-black headscarf throwing molotov coctails aesthetic every now and then, but it doesn't loving work. An untrained mob with rocks and small arms cannot even seriously threaten any actual army, now or in the 19th century. Revolutions only work when they either have foreign support or manage to subvert a substantial portion of the armed forces. (oops this was already discussed, should have reloaded the page) Tuna-Fish fucked around with this message at 10:24 on Jul 14, 2021 |
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Jul 14, 2021 10:22
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karmicknight posted:I mean, the counter argument to that is that you are describing the literal population of paris taking up arms against the state. That's... a rather simplified description of the Paris Commune, considering a main reason they were so unprepared to meet the military was that the leadership of the Commune was actually trying very hard to avoid a civil war (and had convinced themselves the French government wouldn't be willing to suppress Paris through armed force, which, well, they got pretty wrong).
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Jul 14, 2021 10:27
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Rebel Demands:
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Jul 14, 2021 11:14
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Quorum posted:Rebel Demands:
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Jul 14, 2021 11:36
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Crazycryodude posted:Modeling rebellions as dudes with guns on the map having pitched battles with the professional army is just a terrible way to model all but the biggest of them. Having the army stomp a 2-regiment stack of irregulars should never even come up, the small-scale stuff should happen off the map and in the pop screen instead. Maybe apply a constant low-level attrition to both the military units in the state and militant rebel pops or something to represent the low-level simmer of the local rebels knocking over the occasional checkpoint but I don't think the little 3D dudes should start shooting at each other in full battles on the map until it's a full civil war level conflict. Agreed, in reality if a town rebels they'll march through the streets and burn stuff, but as soon as they hear an army is on the way to crush them they'll melt away back into the population and the army will be forced to spend ages in the town trying to root out the rebels while taking attrition from sabotage. I think it's fine to show the rebels as an army on the map, but they should have the ability to disband into a province debuff when an overwhelming army approaches. Then if you ignore them, multiple rebellions could group up and cause some actual problems, but you don't have this weird situation where a bunch of unhappy farmers get shot dead by the army and now the town is happy again.
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Jul 14, 2021 12:02
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Wiz posted:That's... a rather simplified description of the Paris Commune, considering a main reason they were so unprepared to meet the military was that the leadership of the Commune was actually trying very hard to avoid a civil war (and had convinced themselves the French government wouldn't be willing to suppress Paris through armed force, which, well, they got pretty wrong). 48 wasn't the commune m'wiz 48 is when we deposed the liberal monarch for a republic, then immediately elected the heir of the previous  house and installed him as a liberal monarch. Then he bulldozed Paris to make sure people couldn't keep doing that (prime DLC fodder please let me do this) e: Louis-Philippe gesturing to a barricade of detritus in a nasty alley "They keep doing this! Why do they keep doing this??" Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 12:19 on Jul 14, 2021 |
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Jul 14, 2021 12:10
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:48 wasn't the commune m'wiz France, what the gently caress we need to talk.
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Jul 14, 2021 12:20
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:48 wasn't the commune m'wiz Oh right, reading comprehension what is it even
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Jul 14, 2021 13:27
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:48 wasn't the commune m'wiz  That's like having a socialist revolution in the USA after Trump and then electing Obama again.
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Jul 14, 2021 14:05
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DrSunshine posted:
July monarchy-era politics has a lot of similarities with modern day US politics tbh.
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Jul 14, 2021 14:32
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DrSunshine posted:
To be fair the people who rioted and the people who gave the throne to the guy where not the same people. In fact the second group specifically stayed out of that stuff
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Jul 14, 2021 15:09
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lol I love that France had so many revolutions during this timeframe that no one can keep them straightCharlestheHammer posted:To be fair the people who rioted and the people who gave the throne to the guy where not the same people. I think you're describing the 1830 rev when they're talking about 1848 feller fucked around with this message at 15:19 on Jul 14, 2021 |
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Jul 14, 2021 15:15
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yikes! posted:lol I love that France had so many revolutions during this timeframe that no one can keep them straight Revolutions are like potato chips, you can't have just one
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Jul 14, 2021 15:22
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just like how the rural french electorate were potatoes in a sack.
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Jul 14, 2021 15:49
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https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/1415310115842842629 It looks like more advanced production methods lead to more demand for various commodities, which seems like it'll encourage economic integration. Hope supply isn't all or nothing like in Vicky II though, where factories go offline entirely due to world market shenanigans.
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Jul 14, 2021 16:52
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yikes! posted:lol I love that France had so many revolutions during this timeframe that no one can keep them straight The 1830 Revolution in France also took place over about half a week too. I have no idea how you'd gamify that. It was also only possible due to the importance of Paris to France. In a less centralized state, that might have been a full civil war instead of a mostly bloodless (by french standards) coup.
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Jul 14, 2021 16:55
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Yeah like the 1830 rebellion being a massive stack of rebels that spawns in Paris and then the army rolls straight 1s would kinda suck
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Jul 14, 2021 17:15
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I certainly hope my pops using plastic instead of glass properly feminizes them with estrogenics.
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Jul 14, 2021 21:31
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