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I've been wondering what the average / normal / ideal physique of a knight would have been like. Probably fit, but I think most modern pro athletes are really optimized for the specific sport they do, so obviously that would not be possible. Maybe any physique from "basically fit" to "totally ripped" would have been acceptable. I've specifically been wondering this in the context of asoiaf and Brienne. There isn't really any real world person I could picture in her role. But probably GRRM doesn't know either and just writes things without thinking too hard about it, as with all aspects of Westerosi society.
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Jul 14, 2021 22:43
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pidan posted:I've been wondering what the average / normal / ideal physique of a knight would have been like. Probably fit, but I think most modern pro athletes are really optimized for the specific sport they do, so obviously that would not be possible. Maybe any physique from "basically fit" to "totally ripped" would have been acceptable. 
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Jul 14, 2021 23:10
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pidan posted:I've been wondering what the average / normal / ideal physique of a knight would have been like. Probably fit, but I think most modern pro athletes are really optimized for the specific sport they do, so obviously that would not be possible. Maybe any physique from "basically fit" to "totally ripped" would have been acceptable. Knights were certainly expected to be fit. Physical feats such as wearing armor while scaling tall ladders or vaulting onto your horse were part of the normal things a knight was expected to be able to do, not to mention that fighting in armor is quite a strenuous activity itself. I doubt many, if any, would have achieved the very low body fat percentages that modern professional athletes do, simply because that's a goal that requires a specialized approach to reach. Now granted, "knights" are absolutely not a monolithic block, any more than "soldiers" are, so there's tremendous room for variation. But the physical ideal of a knight was to be strong, fast, tough, and have the endurance to fight and win.
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Jul 15, 2021 00:09
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Kylaer posted:Gonna rep Christian Cameron again here for his excellent (and, given how I've always found it kind of funny and weird how much modern "warrior" culture poo poo adopted by wannabe vigilantes, the police, the military, etc idolizes the Spartans because if you crack even one decent history book about their culture or society it is immediately apparent how kooky those dudes were even if compared to other Greeks of the time. You drat near have to go out of your way to not read about it or misinterpret the material.
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Jul 15, 2021 01:01
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he is as an author, probably as true to life as it's possible to be given how little factual knowledge we actually have about the era) portrayal of the Spartans in his Long War series. They were weird even by the standards of the times, and even more weird from a modern perspective.
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Isn't most of what we know about the Spartans written by Athenians though? They certainly had a vested interest in portraying the Spartans as warmongering lunatics.
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Jul 15, 2021 01:19
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Quite the opposite, the sources are generally in the "We should be more like Sparta" camp.
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Jul 15, 2021 01:47
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When people bring up things like fitness and muscle for medieval soldiers I always just imagine like John Wayne with a sword. He was a guy who was capable of strenuous activity but sure wasn't ripped.
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Jul 15, 2021 02:42
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Whizzing Wizard posted:Isn't most of what we know about the Spartans written by Athenians though? They certainly had a vested interest in portraying the Spartans as warmongering lunatics. Most of the primary sources we have about the Spartans are some people who looked at the chaotic mess that was Athenian Direct Democracy during the Peloponnesian War and basically went “gently caress this, the Spartan system is better.” Past that we have a ton of Spartan propaganda that they sold to the Romans when they were a tourist stop as the rich went on their tours of Greece. Sparta was essentially the dominate polity in Greece for only 30 years before being stomped by Thebes. They sucked and only beat Athens prior to that due to a lot of dumbass mistakes.
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Jul 15, 2021 05:07
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Kylaer posted:Knights were certainly expected to be fit. Physical feats such as wearing armor while scaling tall ladders or vaulting onto your horse were part of the normal things a knight was expected to be able to do, not to mention that fighting in armor is quite a strenuous activity itself. I doubt many, if any, would have achieved the very low body fat percentages that modern professional athletes do, simply because that's a goal that requires a specialized approach to reach. The dudes who do HEMA today range from spindly to hefty, short to tall and everything in between. Then again, poking each other with blunt weapons for fun may have different requirements than actual fighting. But it was probably also most of a knight's actual training. Then again, they'd select from a different pool than HEMA nerds. So who knows. I have watched some sword fighting tournaments and the one thing I noticed was that large size was much less of an advantage than you'd think. Take that, GRRM characters!
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Jul 15, 2021 08:40
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When was the American Tolkien selling water damaged calendars? Was that before of after the tv series?
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Jul 15, 2021 12:02
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Whizzing Wizard posted:When was the American Tolkien selling water damaged calendars? Was that before of after the tv series? Water damaged RPG books before the TV series launched but while it was under development: https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2009/01/05/guardians-of-order-rpg/
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Jul 15, 2021 12:59
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pidan posted:The dudes who do HEMA today range from spindly to hefty, short to tall and everything in between. Then again, poking each other with blunt weapons for fun may have different requirements than actual fighting. But it was probably also most of a knight's actual training. Then again, they'd select from a different pool than HEMA nerds. So who knows. Yeah but Hema is…. Try watching battle of nations stuff. Those guys are loving big because they can just slam into each other. Most sword fighting games have a lot of rules against that kind of wrestling stuff. But in fact if you read like the extant training manuals and stuff they were all about body checks, slams, murder strikes. You can’t do this stuff in “martial arts” because people will get maimed or die. Imagine MMA but people have swords and armor. Ground and pound a dagger through the guys helmet slit is a very effective way to end a fight.
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Jul 15, 2021 16:36
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pseudanonymous posted:Yeah but Hema is…. I would agree that size and strength absolutely were important in medieval combat, although with grappling, it wasn't quite as simple as going to ground on top of your opponent to finish him - that's great in 1-to-1 combat, but suicidal in a melee when you'd then be on the ground with your dead opponent's mates wailing on you with poleaxes! Size and strength would probably be balanced against the endurance fitness necessary to move and fight for protracted periods in armour. More importantly, people weren't usually selected for combat roles based on their physical attributes, there would have been some selection and self-selection of the most physically capable candidates, but from within the social classes that were expected to fill that role. Additionally, there are a lot of mental and personal attributes that make someone handy at war beyond their ability to fight hand-to-hand - decision making ability, forethought, taking orders/instructions, situational awareness, plain old competence and common sense. So while the biggest strongest guys were undoubtedly useful in combat, size wasn't necessarily the dominant factor in making someone a successful knight (or hoplite or whatever). Kylaer posted:Gonna rep Christian Cameron again here for his excellent (and, given how I do really like his books (about both knights and classical greeks) but I think he falls a little into the trap of Sparta-worship. Not overall, he's not a big fan of them morally/socially, but he still treats the Spartiates as if they're automatically as tough as the toughest of the other Greeks. The whole idea of the Spartiates as a professional warrior class, as opposed to just the ruling class of a really unusual state, is being re-examined. Things like the agoge and the communal messes are hallmarks, to us, of a professional military lifestyle, but actually a Spartiate and any other Greek landowner may not have personally trained for combat much differently.
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Jul 15, 2021 18:21
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Jul 15, 2021 18:47
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When did The Onion become legit?
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Jul 15, 2021 23:33
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Woodpile posted:When did The Onion become legit? 2001
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Jul 16, 2021 05:37
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Genghis Cohen posted:Things like the agoge and the communal messes are hallmarks, to us, of a professional military lifestyle, but actually a Spartiate and any other Greek landowner may not have personally trained for combat much differently. The acoup blog has some good articles about Sparta. He's conclusion about the agoge was that it was good for brainwashing and grooming children but not that good at actually making good soldiers.
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Jul 16, 2021 11:14
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HBO green lighted another 2 spin-offs including about not-China which I’m sure will be handled welll.
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Jul 16, 2021 17:42
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It's actually going to be an animated series about Yi-Ti (Not-China) which has me somewhat cautiously optimistic, to be honest. Yi-ti is described as being so massive and epic that there's no way they could do it justice in a live-action form, and it would inevitably wind up being a joke. Now, depending on the style of animation used and the studio that ends up doing it, this could actually be pretty awesome. There are two other GoT animated series currently in development - one mystery one of indeterminate subject as far as I can tell, and then (IIRC) there's an animated series focusing on Robert's Rebellion that they're also working on. Also, they've officially cancelled/abandoned the (live-action) spin-off Fleabottom which I guess was going to be about the day-to-day denizens living in the poorest slums of King's Landing; good on them for ditching that, because it's a dreadful premise. There are three other live-action shows currently in-development, two that might similarly get canned before they reach production, which are: 10,000 Ships about Nymeria and the Rhoynish conquest of Dorne, and 9 Voyages about Corlys "The Sea Snake" Velaryon's adventures criss-crossing Planetos early in his life. And of course, there's House of the Dragon which is the only spin-off actually in production and certain to air, about the Dance of the Dragons. I really dunno what expectations I have for House of the Dragon. It's honestly a GREAT story, with vivid characters that could be simultaneously loathsome and awesome. There are some really awesome/horrifying moments and images I hope they don't screw up: The Kingsguard twins on opposing sides fighting to the death on Dragonstone, Blood and Cheese giving Queen Helena her Sophie's Choice, Daemon wandering Harrenhall alone with his dragon and his final battle with Aemond over the God's Eye, crippled and impotent Aegon II crying and masturbating while watching Mushroom the dwarf and others gently caress women, Rhaenyra's return to Dragonstone and betrayal there (which could be a great twist in the series if executed well)... I guess those are the moments that come to mind. kaworu fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Jul 16, 2021 |
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Jul 16, 2021 20:08
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Alhazred posted:The acoup blog has some good articles about Sparta. He's conclusion about the agoge was that it was good for brainwashing and grooming children but not that good at actually making good soldiers. I think I have seen those, yes. Basically a lot of modern stuff I've seen says that our assumption was the agoge and the whole system was about training Spartiates for war, and that's just not true. It was to make them members of their class and supportive of their state's bizarre system. Their military competence during the early period of classical Greek warfare may have been helped by that, but it wasn't strictly speaking military training.
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Jul 16, 2021 21:25
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:I still think the funniest possibility is that it finally does come out but it’s just full of more long meandering POV chapters of characters who were introduced in one of the last two books just traveling places and This isn't the Stormlight thread.
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Jul 17, 2021 05:01
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From a few pages back but the Mongols were really good at sieges too. If the Dothraki were so unstoppable on the battlefield they'd surely have picked up some siege abilities as well by necessity.
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Jul 17, 2021 06:48
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Ginette Reno posted:From a few pages back but the Mongols were really good at sieges too. If the Dothraki were so unstoppable on the battlefield they'd surely have picked up some siege abilities as well by necessity. It feels like their whole thing was they didn't need to. Like if they showed up at a walled city is pretty standard for the council of that place to just pay them to gently caress off because it's cheaper than those assholes shutting down trade. A hundred slave girls and some horses is infinitely cheaper than there being no spice and silk and whatever trade. The Anime Liker fucked around with this message at 06:53 on Jul 17, 2021 |
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Jul 17, 2021 06:51
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A HORNY SWEARENGEN posted:It feels like their whole thing was they didn't need to. I feel like the Mongols were known to do that and then still sack the city anyways and add it to their empire because why not? Maybe I'm off base on that I haven't read about them in a while but I thought I remember that being a thing.
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Jul 17, 2021 07:15
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Pennsylvanian posted:This isn't the Stormlight thread. Yeah, Brandon Sanderson's at least gonna finish his story 
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Jul 17, 2021 08:19
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Ginette Reno posted:I feel like the Mongols were known to do that and then still sack the city anyways and add it to their empire because why not? Maybe I'm off base on that I haven't read about them in a while but I thought I remember that being a thing. The Mongols were running a deliberate terror / intimidation campaign, so they both sacked a lot of cities and also made sure that everyone heard of it. For this reason, all the reports about Mongol atrocities are mildly suspect - that's just what they want you to believe! Of course, they definitely did do some atrocities, but which ones are exaggerated is not clear.
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Jul 17, 2021 08:42
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A HORNY SWEARENGEN posted:It feels like their whole thing was they didn't need to. What walled cities are they going against? Dont all the slaver bay cities have armies of unsullied and mercs and can just supply each other by boat during a siege. Qarth is obv unsiegeable, do the dothraki ever bother going west to gently caress with Bravos/Pentos?
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Jul 17, 2021 11:23
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It's almost as if the author of these books don't know anything about history outside of England/France in the high middle ages.
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Jul 17, 2021 11:38
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He doesn't know very much about the history of those places in those periods, either. EDIT: He does a better job of it than the show did - which lol is the lowest bar to clear - but yeah. ACOUP had an article trilogy about it. Mostly the show, as I recall, but a fair good few of the criticisms still apply. His best work on the show is probably his big write-up of how the Dothraki have nothing whatsoever to do with the historical peoples Martin explicitly compares them to by name, and rather instead everything to do with racist depictions of those peoples. RoboChrist 9000 fucked around with this message at 11:52 on Jul 17, 2021 |
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Jul 17, 2021 11:50
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:His best work on the show is probably his big write-up of how the Dothraki have nothing whatsoever to do with the historical peoples Martin explicitly compares them to by name, and rather instead everything to do with racist depictions of those peoples. Thank you for mentioning this, I went and read it and, man, seeing it all in one place really hammers home how GRRM is just proudly and openly trafficking in ignorant and racist stereotypes.
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Jul 17, 2021 20:41
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disaster pastor posted:Thank you for mentioning this, I went and read it and, man, seeing it all in one place really hammers home how GRRM is just proudly and openly trafficking in ignorant and racist stereotypes. The Absolute Fucker posted:The Dothraki were actually fashioned as an amalgam of a number of steppe and plains cultures… Mongols and Huns, certainly, but also Alans, Sioux, Cheyenne, and various other Amerindian tribes… seasoned with a dash of pure fantasy. I would really really like to ask GRRM what the similarities are between a European steppe people from 400 AD and a Nation of Plains Indians in North America in 1840 AD.
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Jul 17, 2021 21:10
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I’m shocked, SHOCKED, to here a very old fat white guy is racist.
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Jul 17, 2021 22:00
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yeah old fat rich white guys in terrible hats usually have the best opinions
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Jul 17, 2021 22:04
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Pennsylvanian posted:This isn't the Stormlight thread. The only character in Stormlight as badly written as ASOIAF characters is Venli. Maybe Shalan at times. Shimrra Jamaane posted:I would really really like to ask GRRM what the similarities are between a European steppe people from 400 AD and a Nation of Plains Indians in North America in 1840 AD. It'd probably be a bunch of bullshit followed by a hasty admission of seeing both as uncultured savages.
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Jul 17, 2021 22:07
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This is probably more of a reflection on me but I semi regularly go on the ASoIAF Reddit to gauge the temperature of some of the discussion and I find a lot gems that make it worth it. 
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Jul 17, 2021 23:08
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European Medieval Combat Guys are only just above Normandy WW2 Guys on the hierarchy of history buff smoothbrains.
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Jul 17, 2021 23:28
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GRRM opens himself up to being poo poo on for being an idiot with his fantasy world building because most epic fantasy authors don’t go out of their way to criticize older works for being fantastical and insist that their own work is considerably more grounded in real history and how things really worked. That’s why I think it’s fair to just pick it all apart.
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Jul 18, 2021 00:04
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:GRRM opens himself up to being poo poo on for being an idiot with his fantasy world building because most epic fantasy authors don’t go out of their way to criticize older works for being fantastical and insist that their own work is considerably more grounded in real history and how things really worked. That’s why I think it’s fair to just pick it all apart. I just do it because I don’t like how he looks. Makes life easy.
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Jul 18, 2021 00:47
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:I would really really like to ask GRRM what the similarities are between a European steppe people from 400 AD and a Nation of Plains Indians in North America in 1840 AD.
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Jul 18, 2021 01:36
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mind the walrus posted:Y'ever wonder if GRRM had strong opinions on Klingon head bumps? Def. seems like that guy. I'm surprised he hasn't written a 2000 word blog post about it.
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Jul 18, 2021 07:05
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