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Kraftwerk posted:How do you guys work so quickly with ATC? I understand that usually for IFR you've already submitted your flight plans in advance so you know and they know what you're trying to do. But I just opened liveatc just to see and a lot of the radio chatter is muffled or difficult to understand. Mostly practice. You more or less know what they're are going to say, so it's a case of just remembering the relevant info. You will have looked up the frequencies beforehand (or already know them) and the rest is just practice. Early on in my training, I would often run liveATC in the background, just to get used to the language and pacing. One of the towers had an especially fast and mumbling controller, which made for great practice (when safely behind your PC!!)
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Jul 20, 2021 18:40
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Kraftwerk posted:How do you guys work so quickly with ATC? I understand that usually for IFR you've already submitted your flight plans in advance so you know and they know what you're trying to do. But I just opened liveatc just to see and a lot of the radio chatter is muffled or difficult to understand. It’s all shorthand and almost like an entirely new language if you’re just learning to fly. There’s only so much that will be conveyed eventually out of habit you’ll start to mentally pair down the information you’re listening for. Callsign that isn’t your airline/airplane? more or less completely ignored. Getting a heading? it’s going to be one of 36 possibilities. Altitudes? going to be something between 0-17000 in 1000ft increments, same for flight levels, somewhere between FL180-FL400ish. Getting an IFR approach clearance? you’ll know well ahead of time which approach you’re doing. Landing clearance? you’ll know which runway you’re going to well in advance, etcetera. Don’t worry about sounding dumb or asking a controller to repeat themselves if you miss something. It’s a lot less embarrassing to sound dumb and get it right than assume and get it wrong. Eventually you’ll get good at it, just takes practice. That said, the day I stop sounding dumb on the radio is the day I retire. e: and when you get better at it and start to get a feel for how it all works and what the normal phraseology and cadence sounds like, occasionally you’ll hear something unexpected or nonstandard happen and hear controllers/pilots start to sound a little confused and using more or less plain language to sort it out e.pilot fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Jul 20, 2021 |
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Jul 20, 2021 18:50
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Also, it seems lots has changed since I last worked in the aviation industry. Do you still use TCAS? When I left in 2015 there was a HUGE fuss about moving over to FAA mandated ADS-B Out and having new types of "Enhanced Nav" type stuff in place that allows autopilot and navigation in really messed up terrain. From what I can see, ADS-B lets you see 360 degree weather radar from outside sources as well as the real time location of every single plane in your airspace without the assistance of surveillance radar. Even small planes like Cirrus SR22s seem to have it!
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Jul 20, 2021 19:00
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Kraftwerk posted:How do you guys work so quickly with ATC? I understand that usually for IFR you've already submitted your flight plans in advance so you know and they know what you're trying to do. But I just opened liveatc just to see and a lot of the radio chatter is muffled or difficult to understand. I think the biggest factor in understanding the radio is knowing that aviation english is highly formalized, and that there are certain phrases you expect to hear at certain times. For instance, when I'm coming back to land and make the initial callup "San Carlos tower, Skyhawk 1234Z at crystal springs causeway, two thousand, inbound full stop with zulu" station -- my callsign -- location -- altitude -- intentions -- information I expect to hear back something like: "1234Z, San Carlos altimeter 3014, cross overhead midfield at or above one thousand five hundred enter right base 30" my callsign -- altimeter setting -- pattern entry instructions -- landing runway And if your brain is prepped for that, it's much easier to pick out what they're saying. Keep listening to LiveATC and you'll quickly notice that the calls fall into a handful of categories with very little variation other than the specific numbers. Or try tuning into a small airport on a saturday morning -- then you'll get all the private pilots out for joyrides, and you'll hear all sorts of bad radio protocol and how that can bog things down. (not that I'm pretending to be a hotshot or anything; a couple of flights ago I was expecting to taxi off and the controller told me to stop on the runway and back-taxi instead and that completely rebooted my brain for about 5 seconds) Kraftwerk posted:Do you still use TCAS? When I left in 2015 there was a HUGE fuss about moving over to FAA mandated ADS-B Out and having new types of "Enhanced Nav" type stuff in place that allows autopilot and navigation in really messed up terrain. From what I can see, ADS-B lets you see 360 degree weather radar from outside sources as well as the real time location of every single plane in your airspace without the assistance of surveillance radar. Even small planes like Cirrus SR22s seem to have it! TCAS is still in active use, yes. ADS-B out is now required in basically all busy airspace*, but ADS-B in is still optional. If you have an ADS-B receiver, you can see planes around you -- but only the ones that are actively broadcasting and which your receiver has noticed. It's a very helpful tool but what you see on the traffic display is by no means guaranteed to be "every single plane in your airspace." Part of the ADS-B spec includes a weather broadcast but only the fancier receivers will interpret and display it. Cirruses? They have all the fancy poo poo. You can get ADS-B traffic in a C150 these days with a drop-in digital gauge replacement:  Stick that in where your ADF used to be or whatever. *in the USA. Gotta remind myself that you're in Canada and you don't have the ADS-B mandate and do weird stuff like call the pattern "the circuit" 
Sagebrush fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Jul 20, 2021 |
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Jul 20, 2021 19:21
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Sagebrush posted:It's a very helpful tool but what you see on the traffic display is by no means guaranteed to be "every single plane in your airspace." In some ways it's scarier to have an ipad with *nearly* every plane in your airspace in your lap. Kinda like backup cameras in cars, it can give you some false security.
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Jul 20, 2021 19:29
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You can also buy an ADS-B receiver and get all the traffic and weather on your iPad. https://www.foreflight.com/products/portable-ads-b-receivers/
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Jul 20, 2021 19:53
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Don't forget to read back all frequency changes with an overexaggerated, affected "seeya!"
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Jul 20, 2021 20:23
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vessbot posted:Don't forget to read back all frequency changes with an overexaggerated, affected "seeya!" One of our controllers drawls everything out with exaggerated "y'HAve a GOod Day!" stuff thrown in and I like him way more than the one who thinks he's on an aircraft carrier and machine-guns every call in 0.03 seconds 
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Jul 20, 2021 20:30
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vessbot posted:Don't forget to read back all frequency changes with an overexaggerated, affected "seeya!" It’s more or a sssssoya
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Jul 20, 2021 20:38
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vessbot posted:Don't forget to read back all frequency changes with an overexaggerated, affected "seeya!" You forgot "I've got him on the fish finder!", and "Any traffic in the area please advise".
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Jul 20, 2021 20:48
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I flew with a TRACON guy once who said “aaaaaand here’s the flash!” when local ATC asked him to ident and ever since then I’ve said exactly that when asked to ID I am that person
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Jul 20, 2021 20:57
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Kraftwerk posted:I'm assuming with the careful planning and memorization you do for your flight most of what you discuss with ATC will make sense against the documentation and whatever is in your FMC that even if you don't hear it correctly, the text fills in the blanks and it's easier to understand. Not a pilot but from watching AOPA videos, never make assumptions and always ask for a read back.
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Jul 20, 2021 20:57
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I’m a ssssssseeEEEYA guy and a “flash” identer guy. We do a lot of formation flying and will always get queried by Pensacola TRACON “Texan XXX are you a single or a flight?”. My favorite response is “Texan XXX is a single. You interested?” Gets a chuckle like 10% of the time
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Jul 20, 2021 21:22
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I'm more of *reads back, inputs frequency* 'thanks, we'll seeya' *doesn't hit the flip button* type myself
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Jul 20, 2021 21:51
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Charles posted:Not a pilot but from watching AOPA videos, never make assumptions and always ask for a read back. Who should ask for a read back?
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Jul 20, 2021 22:02
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Charles posted:Not a pilot but from watching AOPA videos, never make assumptions and always ask for a read back. The bit I posted above about knowing what to expect can also bite you. If your brain gets accustomed to hearing a specific call at a specific time, you might just hear what you're looking for even though the controller said something different. Many incursions and deviations have been caused by that little bit of psychology. Harrison Ford's most recent incident seems like one to me, in fact: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nU0BmAWtz5c He was told to hold short of the runway and was doing so. Normally the next call to an aircraft holding short would be its clearance to enter the runway, so that's what you're waiting to hear. In this case the tower made a somewhat unusual "continue holding short" call, and because Han Solo was expecting a clearance he acknowledged it as if he'd been cleared and taxiied across. I remember at the time there was some argument over whether the tower should have used the word "continue," since that normally means "go ahead and do your thing" where an explicit clearance isn't required. It's possible that ATC screwed that up. But he also certainly knows that you can't enter a runway unless you hear the word "cleared" and the runway number. He just heard what his brain was expecting to hear. yellowD posted:I'm more of *reads back, inputs frequency* 'thanks, we'll seeya' *doesn't hit the flip button* type myself "1234Z remain outside of bravo, frequency change approved" "frequency change 1234Z, thanks a lot" *continues listening in to make sure they aren't talking behind my back*
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Jul 20, 2021 22:02
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So kinda like how I'll see a left arrow out of the corner of my eye and think it's the full green light and start go.
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Jul 20, 2021 22:08
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skooma512 posted:So kinda like how I'll see a left arrow out of the corner of my eye and think it's the full green light and start go. Or even more so, when there's no green at all but a car within my field of view crept forward 2 feet because the driver's foot got light on the break pedal for a second. Paging Dr. Pavlov!
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Jul 20, 2021 22:33
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e.pilot posted:Callsign that isn’t your airline/airplane? more or less completely ignored. My previous airline changed our callsign while I was working there and it was a total shitshow for a few weeks until peoples ears adapted to the new callsign. Kraftwerk posted:Also, it seems lots has changed since I last worked in the aviation industry. TCAS isn't going away any time soon. As far as I know ADSB doesn't have the ability to provide resolution advisories the same way TCAS does.
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Jul 20, 2021 23:55
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ImplicitAssembler posted:Who should ask for a read back? I meant ask for a repeat, if you don't hear something or ask for clarification if you're confused. And yeah like Sagebrush said sometimes our brains override us anyway.
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Jul 21, 2021 00:12
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Sagebrush posted:"1234Z remain outside of bravo, frequency change approved" "That last guy was a real dipshit" *crosstalk of every plane on frequency saying "yep"*
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Jul 21, 2021 00:26
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Charles posted:I meant ask for a repeat, if you don't hear something or ask for clarification if you're confused. And yeah like Sagebrush said sometimes our brains override us anyway. Ah, a readback is when you repeat what you just received to confirm that you heard it correctly. For instance, if the tower tells you "hold short of runway 30" and you say "roger" (don't) they'll come back with "I need a readback on the hold short instruction," because you need to actually repeat your callsign/tail number and the phrase "holding short" over the radio to verify that you understood. When you need something repeated for clarification that's called...well it doesn't really have a name but the phrase you use is "say again."
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Jul 21, 2021 00:41
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Bob A Feet posted:I’m a ssssssseeEEEYA guy and a “flash” identer guy. We do a lot of formation flying and will always get queried by Pensacola TRACON “Texan XXX are you a single or a flight?”. My favorite response is “Texan XXX is a single. You interested?” Gets a chuckle like 10% of the time Come further south. The military guys we get are almost invariably trying waaaaaaaay too hard to be too-cool-for-school. Mostly the nerds in dark gray C-130s out of Hurlburt.
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Jul 21, 2021 02:37
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Sagebrush posted:Ah, a readback is when you repeat what you just received to confirm that you heard it correctly. For instance, if the tower tells you "hold short of runway 30" and you say "roger" (don't) they'll come back with "I need a readback on the hold short instruction," because you need to actually repeat your callsign/tail number and the phrase "holding short" over the radio to verify that you understood. You should be doing the readback always though right...at least hypothetically! I noticed in the Vasaviation video the other day the controller didn't enforce it for takeoff clearance from the pilot and they were having trouble understanding things, it seemed like (stroke? Or something similar). Blargh
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Jul 21, 2021 05:05
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It depends on the call. There are certain things that you must always read back, like takeoff and landing clearances and hold-short instructions. Some things can be good to read back for verification but are not strictly required, like the altimeter setting when it's given to you. Others would just clutter up the airwaves; say, if they give you the winds along with your landing clearance, there's no need to repeat that back. Some of it seems to be up to the controller's discretion and attitude, though. A normal landing clearance would sound something like: Tower: 1234Z, cleared to land runway 30 number 2 following the Citabria on half-mile final, winds 290 at 7. You: cleared to land 30 number 2, traffic to follow in sight, 1234Z. At my local airport they are specifically nitpicky about having people read back the landing order along with the clearance, and if you don't include "number 2" they will ask for a proper readback. At other airports I've heard people skipping that part with no comment from ATC. But also at my airport they don't seem to care if people skip the runway number, just reading back "cleared to land number 2," even though that's improper -- presumably because there's only one runway and if you're on the downwind for 30 you are unlikely to suddenly double back and land on 12. If the field had two parallel runways, I'm sure they would be very insistent on hearing 30 LEFT or 30 RIGHT in all of your readbacks. The AIM is the reference for phraseology and how to use it (chapter 5 in particular): https://www.faa.gov/Air_traffic/Publications/atpubs/aim_html/index.html And this book is really good if you are learning to fly, or are just interested in the details of how pilots communicate in all different types of airspace: https://www.amazon.com/Say-Again-Please-Guide-Communications/dp/1560277602 e: The second-most important thing in ATC communications is to be concise. As you probably know, aviation radios are simplex channels, so only one person at a time can speak. You should get your information across as efficiently as possible and not waste time on the air hemming and hawing or repeating information that isn't needed. However, the most important thing is to be understood. If you're a little redundant sometimes or take more time or more words to get the message across clearly, that is fine -- the regulations specifically allow you to say whatever is needed to ensure understanding. Sagebrush fucked around with this message at 05:40 on Jul 21, 2021 |
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Jul 21, 2021 05:25
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From a careers perspective, is there much difference between flying for airlines vs flying corporate? I mean aside from flying Gulfstreams, Globals, Falcons etc vs 737s and other airliners.
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Jul 21, 2021 19:48
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I can effort post about corporate, I have experience with Lears, Citations, Falcons and a good mix of 91/135 if nobody else posts by the time my fever breaks. I got diagnosed with Covid 19 today even though I’m vaccinated! gently caress you selfish boomers. gently caress you gently caress you gently caress you.
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Jul 21, 2021 20:09
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Rolo posted:I can effort post about corporate, I have experience with Lears, Citations, Falcons and a good mix of 91/135 if nobody else posts by the time my fever breaks. Oh man I'm sorry dude. I hope you're feeling okay and the vaccines have given you some resistance to it!
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Jul 21, 2021 20:19
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Looking at options for feeding music into my headset/helmet. (From iPhone, so Bluetooth, I guess). Ideally something who also got helicopter compatible versions. Anyone got any recommendations?
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Jul 22, 2021 07:23
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KodiakRS posted:My previous airline changed our callsign while I was working there and it was a total shitshow for a few weeks until peoples ears adapted to the new callsign. I’m a hot mess any time I go fly GA now. When I was at boutique there were a lot of Bouessnas and Bouarons said. Skyessnas and Skyarokees when I was at Skywest Now it’s all Giessna and Giarokee. I may in fact just be an idiot  e: and my current airline has more than one callsign depending who we’re flying for, that’s always fun
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Jul 22, 2021 10:06
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Rolo posted:gently caress you selfish boomers. gently caress you gently caress you gently caress you. evergreen post
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Jul 22, 2021 10:08
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Kraftwerk posted:From a careers perspective, is there much difference between flying for airlines vs flying corporate? I mean aside from flying Gulfstreams, Globals, Falcons etc vs 737s and other airliners. Big differences, I’ll do a contrasting effort post to Rolo’s in the morning.
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Jul 22, 2021 10:09
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Bob A Feet posted:I’m a ssssssseeEEEYA guy and a “flash” identer guy. We do a lot of formation flying and will always get queried by Pensacola TRACON “Texan XXX are you a single or a flight?”. My favorite response is “Texan XXX is a single. You interested?” Gets a chuckle like 10% of the time It's fun to hear the guys on the ground say "confirm my readback." I live under a bravo and there's an avionics shop not too far away. I was listening to approach/tower on the scanner and got a "cessna 1234 flight of three 10 miles out for runway xxx full stop." Five full seconds elapsed and approach responded with "Cessna 1234, i heard flight of three, confirm my readback." "you are correct, sir, 1234." Another 10-15 seconds, and approach said "Cessna 1234, state your intentions upon landing." "I'm just ferrying some guys without transponders to get the upgrade, I'll be stopping with them then leaving within the hour, 1234." Even though ATC radio is mostly hours and hours of bored robotic repetition of standard stuff, every now and again you get to hear actual human curiosity on the frequency.
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Jul 22, 2021 15:48
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Do you guys have any opinions on the American ATP style schools like the ones in Daytona? It's not financially viable for me to drop everything and spend 100k+ to live in Florida for a few years so I'm more curious about how this system works. Sorry I know I'm asking a lot of questions here but I'm really down the rabbit hole now and there's so much I want to know. Reddit is FULL of bitter former and aspiring aviators who seem to have very strong opinions about going into 80k worth of debt to study at ATP, graduating from it and finding out that all those talks about being connected with regional airlines were just talk. They wind up unemployed with no marketable skills to recoup the debt or get a job with the regionals and eventually even left seat at a major only to be insufficiently paid enough to pay back the debt. It seems Part 61 is always the most recommended choice if you want to fly in the US. The path I'm taking is basically equivalent to Part 61 in Canada. Ground school and lessons with a local FBO and doing about 60+ hours in order to get the PPL. Costs are probably gonna be a more reasonable 20k.
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Jul 22, 2021 16:33
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So I'm a bit of a commercial avgeek/planespotter but this one has me running to people who actually know things. This was happening for about an hour or so last night where I live:  https://imgur.com/rH3kAZU (video) I assume training, but I've never seen anything like this before, especially not at 9something at night. Any ideas?
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Jul 22, 2021 16:36
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I'm biased because I went the non-college route and now I work for that school, but I think I made the right choice. There's a lot more flexibility, and unlike the US, it will not affect when you're able to get a decent job in any real sense, because we don't require FOs to hold an ATPL.
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Jul 22, 2021 16:37
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mactheknife posted:So I'm a bit of a commercial avgeek/planespotter but this one has me running to people who actually know things. Its registered to "East Baton Rouge Parish Mosquitto" which leads me to this: https://www.brla.gov/418/Mosquito-Abatement-Rodent-Control And the FAQ on their spraying: https://www.brla.gov/Faq.aspx?TID=55,
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Jul 22, 2021 16:47
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hobbesmaster posted:Its registered to "East Baton Rouge Parish Mosquitto" which leads me to this: Thanks - I did try to do some digging on my own last night but I'd just worked for 12 hours and was only using my phone. I knew we sprayed from trucks but not planes.
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Jul 22, 2021 17:13
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Kraftwerk posted:Do you guys have any opinions on the American ATP style schools like the ones in Daytona? It's not financially viable for me to drop everything and spend 100k+ to live in Florida for a few years so I'm more curious about how this system works. Sorry I know I'm asking a lot of questions here but I'm really down the rabbit hole now and there's so much I want to know. Accelerated schools like ATP are great if you 100% know that you want to go to the airlines, and don't have an issue dropping (at least) $80k to get into an industry that basically implodes every 10 years or so. From what I know, ATP actually does have agreements to send graduates to various regional airlines, but those agreements are always contingent on said airline hiring whenever you graduate, and the agreements are worded so that the airlines can refuse someone with a history of training failures or something. In a situation where you're not 100% sure if you want to do the whole airline career thing, getting your private through part 61 (or whatever the Canadian version is) is a pretty good choice, since you can always go to one of the accelerated places for the rest of your ratings, or you may decide "yeah, I just want to fly for fun", in which case you wouldn't need to go much past the PPL.
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Jul 22, 2021 18:15
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Kraftwerk posted:From a careers perspective, is there much difference between flying for airlines vs flying corporate? I mean aside from flying Gulfstreams, Globals, Falcons etc vs 737s and other airliners. Cliff notes version: Corporate Part 91k/135: More variety of flying, lots of different airports Smaller planes Depending on the company, larger variety of airframes Depending on the company, lots of dwell time at the hotels/destinations where rich people go, this could be good or bad Potentially don't work much Potentially work so much you'll wish you were dead Don't have to deal with lovely passengers Have to deal with lovely rich people Don't have to deal with airport terminals or TSA security Less ground support, you will almost always load the bags, depending on your company you might have to do the flight planning Potentially a more skeleton crew operation, less flexibility with vacations/sick days/off days/etc Traditionally not as stable of a job Either the best people to work for, or the borderline criminal worst, there is no middle ground Likely no retirement No non-rev flight benefits Passenger Part 121: More structured routes Not as much flying variety, both in airframes and destinations Tons of ground support, from loading passengers, loading bags, deicing, flight planning, etc. Probably not as good of hotels Better pay (once you get out of the regional 121 world anyways) Potentially work more Potentially work less Traditionally more stable Deal with airport terminals, and lovely passengers, especially as of late Have to deal with security and long walks to your gate Typically get a pension at most mainline carriers Flight benefits to non-rev on essentially any airline, plus benefits for your family members on your airline, plus benefits on your airline after you retire I took the middle path and do ACMI Part 121: The pay isn't as good as passenger 121 The pay is a lot better than most 91k/135 operators I get a huge variety of destinations, foreign and domestic 121 work rules, there's a lot more oversight vs 91k/135 ops Tons of support from dispatch, ground crews, etc Boxes don't bitch On the off chance I do fly pax it's usually a military charter and they're lovely to have as passengers compared to the general public Typically long overnights Flight benefits to non-rev on essentially any airline, no real non-rev benefits for your family members or yourself after you retire No pension I'll edit this as I think of other things, but those are the big ones off the top of my head
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Jul 22, 2021 19:19
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