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JustJeff88 posted:Missile weapons work well in this game as actual weapons, but they are annoying to use because they have to be reset after every use. This means putting arrows in quivers, daggers and stones in pouches etc. This game also does not allow long weapons (spears, halberds, staves) to be used from the second row as in the Ravenloft games and Menzo. I forget which game I played where I used an arrow or throwing weapon, picked it up, and the game filed it back where it was before I used it. I recall being absolutely gobsmacked by that brilliant QoL feature, but now I can't remember the game. I know Legend of Grimrock 1 and 2 auto-collects spent ammo and puts it back in place if you just enter the square its in.
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Jul 21, 2021 17:27
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JustJeff88 posted:Missile weapons work well in this game as actual weapons, but they are annoying to use because they have to be reset after every use. This means putting arrows in quivers, daggers and stones in pouches etc. This game also does not allow long weapons (spears, halberds, staves) to be used from the second row as in the Ravenloft games and Menzo. I forget which game I played where I used an arrow or throwing weapon, picked it up, and the game filed it back where it was before I used it. I recall being absolutely gobsmacked by that brilliant QoL feature, but now I can't remember the game. Maaaaaaaybe Dungeon Hack? It would make sense in that game because it's just one PC who would be using all the ranged equipment rather than the game having to track who's quiver each arrow came from.
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Jul 21, 2021 17:48
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JustJeff88 posted:Missile weapons work well in this game as actual weapons, but they are annoying to use because they have to be reset after every use. This means putting arrows in quivers, daggers and stones in pouches etc. This game also does not allow long weapons (spears, halberds, staves) to be used from the second row as in the Ravenloft games and Menzo. I forget which game I played where I used an arrow or throwing weapon, picked it up, and the game filed it back where it was before I used it. I recall being absolutely gobsmacked by that brilliant QoL feature, but now I can't remember the game.  In EOB3 you can use spears and halberds from the second row! I know Grimrock will automatically put thrown/fired items back in inventory
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Jul 21, 2021 17:50
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I used to play the SNES verison of EOB1 all the time. it was one of the few games that supported the SNES mouse accessory, but as you can imagine it was still clunkier than the pc version. It also had more music than the pc version, here's the sewers theme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAfDwXVsiq8
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Jul 21, 2021 18:25
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While EOB3 does add the ability to use polearms from the middle row, I'm fairly sure spears are still only thrown. On that note, it also adds the Spiritual Hammer spell as well as a couple of throwing hammers that return. The chore of retrieving projectiles can be pretty much eliminated. Of course, I'm a long way from that right now and have mainly used projectiles to take advantage of the grates. Otherwise I've mostly been doing the melee sidestepping dance.
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Jul 21, 2021 18:32
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Alpha3KV posted:
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Jul 21, 2021 19:29
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Alpha3KV posted:Otherwise I've mostly been doing the melee sidestepping dance. I've always called it the Stonekeep Shuffle since that game was the first dungeon crawler I've played with that sort of combat.
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Jul 21, 2021 20:18
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wafflemoose posted:I've always called it the Stonekeep Shuffle since that game was the first dungeon crawler I've played with that sort of combat. Ha ha, God. That game's combat was mostly a test of patience to see how long you were willing to backstep/sidestep while throwing trash at enemies.
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Jul 21, 2021 20:32
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dervinosdoom posted:
I haven't played either Grimrock yet, but that's good to know. I had forgotten about EoB3, but that's also a happy reminder. It's my favourite of the trilogy even though nobody else seems to like it.
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Jul 21, 2021 20:39
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wafflemoose posted:I've always called it the Stonekeep Shuffle since that game was the first dungeon crawler I've played with that sort of combat. I called it the Dungeon Master Dance, because that was my first game with that combat type
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Jul 21, 2021 21:16
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I always wondered what iron rations were since they show up in a lot of D&D-inspired games. It turns out they're probably from D&D's wargaming roots, which in turn take the term from WWI. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_ration#%22Iron_Ration%22_(1907%E2%80%931922)
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Jul 22, 2021 00:24
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Meleemancer posted:I always wondered what iron rations were since they show up in a lot of D&D-inspired games. It turns out they're probably from D&D's wargaming roots, which in turn take the term from WWI. I wasn't around for WWI of course, but this takes me back to eating Individual Meal Packs (rations, MREs) during my commission. Surprisingly good. Edit: I didn't want to say anything until I was sure of it, but I still have my cluebooks for these games if anyone is curious about anything. JustJeff88 fucked around with this message at 01:46 on Jul 22, 2021 |
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Jul 22, 2021 00:47
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EOTB 4: Walking Through Webs Entering the second quarter of the game means some new surroundings. After one step forward:  First, I choose talk:  You can still tend his wounds after that:  If we refuse his offer:  I accept him into the party since even just the extra inventory space is useful.   Taghor is the very first NPC who can join you. He starts severely injured and near starvation, but you should be more than capable of aiding him at this point. He comes equipped with chainmail and an axe.  Just north of where we met Taghor, there is a rectangular hallway with moving walls that will follow you in a counter-clockwise direction. Just past the northwest corner of the hallway is a dwarven key. I take another lap around so that the walls are arranged this way:  Note that this level has a north-south wraparound in the east corners. The party's current location is here:  Pulling on this chain keeps the moving walls in their current positions, and solves the Special Quest when they are as above. There will be some HP discrepancies in the following shots since I didn't do things in the order I decided to present.  Northwest from there is a hallway with three pits which would drop us into level 5. Just before it is some text referring to this gargoyle with a raised hand. There are two more like it in rooms to the south and east, and each one closes a single pit.  South from there is a room with three doors. The east one leads to another gargoyle lever, and the west one has another key. I go to the locked middle room first.  If you go there while the other two doors are closed, there will be an opening to this nook with a +3 axe and a chain that removes a wall to the west.  With that, you can bypass the pit puzzle. Three other carvings around this room describe Kruen as "The Holder of Wisdom", "King Under the Mountain", and "Destroyer of the Ancient One."  Going south down that hall, there is a very sneaky button that opens a room to the southeast.  It has another one of those pits that opens up right in front of you. It will toggle every time you step on this tile. On the other side are a dwarven helmet and shield, which use different graphics but are functionally identical to their normal counterparts.  I go up to the northernmost hall of the level. In the center room I have my first encounter with this level's only enemy type, the giant spider. As you can see, it's also my first experience with poison. Poison causes damage in intervals, though those don't seem to be consistent. Resting is a death sentence to any poisoned character. I cast Slow Poison on Garry to delay the effects.  The room with the spider also has the portal carving Taghor mentions if you reject him, with that text appearing next to it. These are activated by stone items like the dagger found on level 2. We don't have the item to activate this one yet.  The next room has four of these potions. Since nobody can cast Neutralize Poison yet, they are the only way to actually remove the poison effect right now. There is a limited number of them so don't use one until you know that you're done fighting spiders for a while, or the character(s) might just get poisoned again.  In the room after that we find a shelf with this text next to it. If you place an Orb of Power into it, all your items will be identified. However, it will be a little while before we get one of those.  Going back all the way west, we find a room with one tile surrounded by four doors. There's a spider in there guarding a key. When a door is opened while the other three are closed, there will be a healing potion on the floor. You can repeat this for each side to get four potions. The spider and key appear only once.  We could go down to level 5 at this point, and could even have done that as soon as we got access to the west hallway without ever encountering spiders. I bypass the stairs down to go into the area the south entrance from level 3 leads to. That plate will close the door behind you.  These webs can be hacked down with any melee weapon, including bare hands. A good way to deal with them is to unequip a shield, take them down with the offhand, then quickly re-equip it. It's important to be ready to attack since there are often spiders directly behind these webs. Both of those will periodically respawn in this area.  Among the items here are two rings. One of them does nothing while the other is a Ring of Protection +3.  There is also another stone portal key, though not for the one on this level.  After collecting those items along with more arrows and such, we finally cure Garry's poison and go down to the next level. Alpha3KV fucked around with this message at 18:00 on Sep 19, 2021 |
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Jul 25, 2021 05:18
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I mean, the sweet helmet of Taghor alone is reason to bring him along.
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Jul 25, 2021 05:49
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That's a +3 axe and a +3 ring in one update, and you're what, level 6? EotB throws some pretty high-level gear at you for the general power level of the PCs. I can't really complain though, since finding it always feels great... There's been a few mentions of difficulty spikes in the thread and i haven't really agreed with them, but this? This is the difficulty spike. You won't have cure poison at this point even as a single-classed cleric and if you don't find enough potions to cover your needs, it can get real hairy when you can't even replenish your healing and slow poison spells (if you even thought to memorize those to begin with) without losing a character. It's definitely one of the deadliest sections in the game given how limited your resources are when you get here. Also, this is also one of the few secret quests you're more likely than not to stumble into even completely by accident, since all it requires is clicking the unusual thing in front of you. It kind of feels like they put it in so they could be sure the player knew there was something up.
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Jul 25, 2021 06:51
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AtomikKrab posted:I mean, the sweet helmet of Taghor alone is reason to bring him along. vilkacis posted:There's been a few mentions of difficulty spikes in the thread and i haven't really agreed with them, but this? This is the difficulty spike. You won't have cure poison at this point even as a single-classed cleric and if you don't find enough potions to cover your needs, it can get real hairy when you can't even replenish your healing and slow poison spells (if you even thought to memorize those to begin with) without losing a character. It's definitely one of the deadliest sections in the game given how limited your resources are when you get here.
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Jul 25, 2021 17:39
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vilkacis posted:That's a +3 axe and a +3 ring in one update, and you're what, level 6? As of now, the highest level any character has is 5. Pierzak posted:What do helmets do anyway in that game? They don't improve AC, IIRC they were supposed to protect against critical hits or something? In this game, absolutely nothing. The sequels have a couple of magical ones. There's one in the third game that's actually very important to have. Before that, they're only really good as weights.
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Jul 25, 2021 18:44
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Guess Garry Stew's good as dead since poison is no joke, especially at this point in the game where you don't have an easy means of curing it besides a finite amount of potions. I get the feeling he's going to be first to be dropped once more npcs become available. Also, on a side note I think Cleric/Thief is of the weirdest multiclasses you can do in DND. you've got a healer who also steals stuff? I just have this mental imagine of a robed priest just going around pickpocketing people for alms money. wafflemoose fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Jul 25, 2021 |
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Jul 25, 2021 18:52
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wafflemoose posted:Also, on a side note I think Cleric/Thief is of the weirdest mutliclasses you can do in DND. you've got a healer who also steals stuff? I just have this mental imagine of a robed priest just going around pickpocketing people for alms money. 
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Jul 25, 2021 18:57
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wafflemoose posted:Guess Garry Stew's good as dead since poison is no joke, especially at this point in the game where you don't have an easy means of curing it besides a finite amount of potions. I get the feeling he's going to be first to be dropped once more npcs become available. IIRC in AD&D it was only available to Gnomes. Though a Human might dual class it after a mid life crisis.
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Jul 25, 2021 19:01
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wafflemoose posted:Also, on a side note I think Cleric/Thief is of the weirdest multiclasses you can do in DND. you've got a healer who also steals stuff? I just have this mental imagine of a robed priest just going around pickpocketing people for alms money. Friar Tuck. Just off the top of my head I can think of three or four fantasy series I've read with a rogue priest conman type.
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Jul 25, 2021 19:16
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Yeah, the "irreverent reverend, who's somehow more in tune with the spirit of the teachings than the rest of the clergy" is a recognized archetype.
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Jul 25, 2021 19:21
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The Forgotten Realms also has a variety of gods who explicitly endorse thieves, good-natured or otherwise. 3.5E has an entire prestige class for cleric/rogues, theming them as religiously motivated breaking-and-entering specialists, either delving into dungeons to recover relics of the faith or breaking into mansions and enemy temples to steal back what's been stolen from the church. Or in 2E, you have Gond, god of craftsmen and inventors and smiths. His specialty priests, if using the optional 2E rules, learn to pick locks and disarm traps as a byproduct of their fiddling with machinery, and have proficiency in blackpowder guns.
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Jul 25, 2021 19:51
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wafflemoose posted:Guess Garry Stew's good as dead since poison is no joke, especially at this point in the game where you don't have an easy means of curing it besides a finite amount of potions. I get the feeling he's going to be first to be dropped once more npcs become available. It depends upon the mechanics specific to each game, but you are correct: broadly speaking, the two classes have crappy synergy. Thieves cannot do sneaky things in heavy armour, which priests can wear, and if the traditional rules are followed then cleric/thieves can't use piercing or bladed weapons either. It's a very awkward combination in rules-as-written 2d edition; druid/rogue would make a lot more sense but isn't allowed. Again, it varies by game as cleric/thieves in the EoB games *can* use bladed weapons and bows. Pen & paper, thief/mage does work quite well although there is no casting even in light, leather armour, but in this trilogy the armour restriction is gone so it's even better. The only synergy I see between thief & cleric is that clerics get a detect traps spell that could take the uncertainty out of looking using rogue skills, but one could easily argue that there is no reason to look for traps magically when one can do it manually, or vice-versa. Clearly I've never used Tiax in BG1, so others may have a different experience.
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Jul 25, 2021 20:38
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JustJeff88 posted:It depends upon the mechanics specific to each game, but you are correct: broadly speaking, the two classes have crappy synergy. Thieves cannot do sneaky things in heavy armour, which priests can wear, and if the traditional rules are followed then cleric/thieves can't use piercing or bladed weapons either. It's a very awkward combination in rules-as-written 2d edition; druid/rogue would make a lot more sense but isn't allowed. Again, it varies by game as cleric/thieves in the EoB games *can* use bladed weapons and bows. Pen & paper, thief/mage does work quite well although there is no casting even in light, leather armour, but in this trilogy the armour restriction is gone so it's even better. The only synergy I see between thief & cleric is that clerics get a detect traps spell that could take the uncertainty out of looking using rogue skills, but one could easily argue that there is no reason to look for traps magically when one can do it manually, or vice-versa. I think Generally clerics are allowed to utilize any weapon associated with their diety. So a god of assassins Clerics are going to be good with knives. Also a cleric CAN wear heavy armor, they don't NEED to wear heavy armor
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Jul 25, 2021 20:51
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Alpha3KV posted:There's one in the third game that's actually very important to have. Alpha3KV posted:I accept him into the party since even just the extra inventory space is useful. Also, remind me what happens in EOB when a PC dies (besides reloading)? Do they retain their position an inventory in the party so you can use them as a Schroedinger's pack mule*, or do their bones and inventory drop on the ground like in Dungeon Master and the rest of the party get to haul them to a priest? * (being both alive and dead until you poke at the rules too much and the DM gets annoyed) Pierzak fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Jul 25, 2021 |
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Jul 25, 2021 21:17
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Pierzak posted:
They remain the in party so yes, you can use a dead party member as a pack mule.
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Jul 25, 2021 21:36
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AtomikKrab posted:I think Generally clerics are allowed to utilize any weapon associated with their diety. So a god of assassins Clerics are going to be good with knives. Also a cleric CAN wear heavy armor, they don't NEED to wear heavy armor The deity weapon thing is generally not put into effect in most games and not how things work generically, rules-as-written. Also, I am aware that clerics do not *have* to wear heavy armour, but in 2e (which this game uses) heavy armour essentially has all of the good and none of the bad of light armour apart from specific cases such as thievery. A multiclass that says 'My first class lets me wear badarse plate, but doing so keeps me from using the core skills of my second class' is a bit of an odd combination. It's a bit like barding a duck; he's better protected, but now he can't swim or fly. Mind you, the EotB trilogy plays lighter with those rules, so there might be no issue. I imagine that cleric/thieves can pick locks in plate & shield just as well as naked since mage multiclasses can cast in armour and cleric multiclasses can use bladed weapons. That's not a criticism - I genuinely think that it is great! I really don't like those silly restrictions. As I said above, having someone with two classes have one class weakened by the other kind of goes against the spirit of multiclassing. After all, the character is already splitting their experience; they should get something for it.
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Jul 25, 2021 21:55
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All this cleric/thief discussion is interesting but it's gonna go to waste since Alpha3KV is going to end up dropping Maskmaiden eventually since this is going to be a recuitable npc party run apparently.
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Jul 25, 2021 22:07
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Cythereal posted:The Forgotten Realms also has a variety of gods who explicitly endorse thieves, good-natured or otherwise. Indeed, that is the reason I named my C/T Maskmaiden aside from the portrait I chose. She can pick locks in any armor and use sharp weapons. On a related note, since I'm coming to the point where I can fully replace my party, I think I might put up a poll about keeping my clerics around. The remains of the future cleric NPC are in a place where they would be particularly useful to have.
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Jul 25, 2021 22:47
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Alpha3KV posted:She can pick locks in any armor and use sharp weapons. I'm genuinely happy to hear this. This thread is making me want to replay this trilogy, and knowing that it doesn't adhere blindly to dumb 2e rules (again, a very good thing that) makes me smile and makes me think hard about what four characters I would want to go through the entire trilogy. Edit: I was going to talk about future (this game and the latter two) NPC options, in spoiler tags of course, but in deference to the OP I took it out.
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Jul 25, 2021 23:37
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Alpha3KV posted:On a related note, since I'm coming to the point where I can fully replace my party, I think I might put up a poll about keeping my clerics around. The remains of the future cleric NPC are in a place where they would be particularly useful to have. I had been assuming you'd leave enough custom characters in your party to fill out the six slots until you had resurrected ones to sub for them. Is that not your intention?
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Jul 26, 2021 01:59
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idonotlikepeas posted:I had been assuming you'd leave enough custom characters in your party to fill out the six slots until you had resurrected ones to sub for them. Is that not your intention? Thinking about it, I probably will end up doing that. There's a hard minimum of 4, and you can drop characters from the party if you have 5 or 6. Going ahead slightly, level 5 is where I can finally revive the corpses I've been lugging from the sewers. Just before that, another dwarf fighter can be recruited. That makes 4 NPCs, a full party of them. But going even further ahead, the remains of the cleric NPC are in level 7, which would be THE most annoying place not to have a cleric beforehand. It's also the start of drow territory, where I think only an elf can translate some text. That means keeping Dave around or using ASE to change somebody's race. I also wanted to see if I could get Garry up to level 9 to show that a character can in fact have too many hit points. However, there is an ideal spot for power-grinding on level 6. My current plan is going through level 5 with the original crew intact and backing up the save file. I'll powerlevel them and either restore the original file or indulge in overpowered characters for a while since the dwarf recruits won't be in the final party.
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Jul 26, 2021 03:09
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wafflemoose posted:Also, on a side note I think Cleric/Thief is of the weirdest multiclasses you can do in DND. you've got a healer who also steals stuff? I just have this mental imagine of a robed priest just going around pickpocketing people for alms money. Sorry but all i can hear is "amazing roleplaying potential" 
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Jul 26, 2021 08:54
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vilkacis posted:Sorry but all i can hear is "amazing roleplaying potential" "My church insists on a 30% income tithe to the poor, but it never said people have to consent to it. Let's break into the bank."
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Jul 26, 2021 09:23
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Listen, they started it when they stole from the offering plate. This is just karma.
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Jul 26, 2021 09:37
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EOTB 5: Dwarf Plot Dump Entering the heart of dwarf territory, we immediately come upon this. Like the orc runes in level 2, these signify illusory walls. This is the only way to the rest of this level, but I'm getting some things here first.  Scale mail is not as good as chainmail, but still superior to leather armor.  There is a set of three locked doors all leading to the same room. This marks the only instance that there is not a key for every locked door, even ignoring the redundancy of these. I pick all three locks to use the key elsewhere, and go west.  The enemies of this level are more spiders. Behind a removable wall is a mage scroll of Dispel Magic, which there's no real reason to cast in this game since no enemies cast debuffs.  I go east past some stairs to level 6 and find this message. It is next to a lever that resets a puzzle to the south.  When you enter this area, pits to level 6 will open behind you after every step. Items on the ground can distract you from an optimal path, shown on this portion of the map from the GameBanshee guide:  7 represents useless items, boots and two -3 weapons that luckily aren't cursed to be stuck in the character's hand. C is a teleporter to the reset lever, and 8 is for keys of a type exclusive to this area.  9 is this Ring of Feather Fall, whose wearer takes no damage from pits.  At 10 we find the best armor type and a spell to make the entire party invisible. A lock will remove this wall, revealing teleporter D to a new part of the level.  After killing some more spiders, I pass through some unmarked illusory walls to get a Wand of Frost. It casts Cone of Cold, one of the best spells in this series which causes major damage to everything in front of you. The visible path to it is blocked off by hidden teleporters, so you have to find the fake walls to get it.  North from there is a teleporter puzzle that ultimately leads to another way to level 6. Those items on the ground are unobtainable due to the teleporters.  Backing up, this plate opens up a permanent pit on the tile to its north. Southwest of it is a button that opens up a wall into the room I unlocked earlier.  The special quest for this level is putting 5 normal rations into the pantry shelf to upgrade them to iron rations. This potion will poison whoever drinks it. Things like it and the weapons from the greed puzzle have minor use as weights or for puzzles calling for certain item types.  The west side of the room has a door that must be forced.  We make our way to these stairs, which lead to a part of level 4 disconnected from the rest. I use the key from the start there to get a healing potion and a couple of scrolls. Incidentally, the transitions between levels 3 and 4 are ladders going into these stairs.  The east door of the pantry room leads us to where the dwarves actually are. Prepare for  , which you can listen to in a silly voice here along with some extra visuals. We agree to find the missing prince.  We also get another companion.  In addition to all that plot, Armun also dumped some rations on the floor. Dorhum also carries two more along with a potion of healing. Like Taghor, he comes equipped with chainmail and an axe, but unlike him is the only recruit to start in perfect health. This stone medallion activates the portal in level 4. Speaking of portals we can use now:  The north wall of the pantry room has this gargoyle. They are common decorations on level 4, but this is the only one on level 5 that is not a lock. This particular one is a sneakier version of the earlier runes, marking an illusory wall.  Behind it is this portal, whose key is in a shelf to its east. This leads to a closed-off hub of these portals in level 7, next to the dagger portal to level 9. It is possible to reach the end pretty quickly when you know these shortcuts and level layouts. I'll go over things like that and more in a bonus update after the end of this game.  Several dwarf guards stand around this room. It is possible to attack them and make them hostile, but that's not a good idea right now.  The northeast corner of this room has the priest who can revive the bones we've been carrying from the sewers. On that note, the dwarves don't seem to mind much that there are three floors of excrement on top of their old civilization now.  Anya's revival is the first in-game mention of our villain. In the Sega CD version her hair is changed to black. Resurrected characters start with empty inventories. On a related subject, since we're at maximum party size, characters removed from the party will leave all their items on the ground at the spot you did that. I still prepared for this by putting things into more organized piles in the pantry room.  You can't revive multiple characters in a row. You have to leave level 5 or rest before it can be done again.  Armun will greet you every time you return, except in the Sega CD version. In that version the above two lines are replaced by cutscenes of the characters silently staring at you.  Tod Uphill's revival. He has a really dorky voice in the Sega CD version. None of these characters have anything further to say when accepted into the party, though they do have lines for rejection. Anya and Tod have theirs presented with their stats below. 
Alpha3KV fucked around with this message at 00:46 on May 21, 2022 |
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Jul 31, 2021 03:21
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Option B sounds like more fun, Alpha.
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Jul 31, 2021 03:42
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Option A. You have a challenge, B is what I did in my playthrough and frankly I'd consider the portal-hopping to be the less interesting route.
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Jul 31, 2021 06:03
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Pierzak posted:Option A. You have a challenge, B is what I did in my playthrough and frankly I'd consider the portal-hopping to be the less interesting route. Be sure to actually vote in the poll, since that's what I intend to base the decision on and it's currently 100% the other way. I'll keep it going at least through the weekend, maybe longer if it gets close.
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Jul 31, 2021 07:06
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