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Ralphiestruggled because he died like the episode after his sob story. Not enough time to be properly tragic
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Aug 17, 2021 23:39
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It was the same episode 
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Aug 17, 2021 23:52
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Dawgstar posted:Not a Gladiator fan? They didn't have FLAT TOPS in ANCIENT ROME!!!
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Aug 18, 2021 00:18
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I remember from my last rewatch that a bunch of Ralphie's Gladiator quotes and talk actually describe what eventually happens to him. Cutting limbs and the like...
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Aug 18, 2021 00:39
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phasmid posted:They didn't have FLAT TOPS in ANCIENT ROME!!! What made Ralphie even funnier was I knew a guy who thought Gladiator was God's gift to cinema and quoted it incessantly. Fortunately he never brained me with a padlock on a chain.
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Aug 18, 2021 00:39
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I know what some of you guys are saying about likable bad guys who are viewed as cool or made into heroes but tend to think you're overselling it a bit. There are tons of reprehensible bad characters in film and TV complete with sympathetic backstories that never resonate as people you root for. Several of them on the Sopranos in fact.
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Aug 18, 2021 00:42
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I mean I can’t think of very many.
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Aug 18, 2021 00:45
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Dawgstar posted:What made Ralphie even funnier was I knew a guy who thought Gladiator was God's gift to cinema and quoted it incessantly. In high school I knew a guy who got an SPQR tattoo just because he thought it looked cool on gladiator He didn’t know what it meant, but I guess there’s worse ancient symbols you could tattoo on your body without knowing the meaning of
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Aug 18, 2021 00:54
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Exceptions to the rule? On the show? Janice, Phil, Livia, Richie, Ralph, Johnny Sack, Johnny Boy...Furio's a stone cold killer. Or do you mean in general with guys like Walter White, Tony Montana, the guys in Goodfellas/Godfather and other anti heroes? I think the Sopranos characters are more fleshed out, to the extent that when they do something terrible it's a little jarring since you've found yourself rooting for them so often and the show seems to do a better job than most of giving them depth. Like, Chris a tremendous rear end in a top hat who nearly kills his girlfriend on several occasions but you still root for him not to use heroin and poo poo.
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Aug 18, 2021 01:07
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BiggerBoat posted:There are tons of reprehensible bad characters in film and TV complete with sympathetic backstories that never resonate as people you root for. Several of them on the Sopranos in fact. Entourage comes to mind. Everyone was complete garbage in that show, and it was only disappointing to see characters fail upwards
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Aug 18, 2021 01:17
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Entourage was a popular show and I know people quoted it until eventually they got bored of it. So entourage just shows how easy it is.
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Aug 18, 2021 01:23
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Entourage. God what a stupid celebrity wankfest.
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Aug 18, 2021 04:07
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i never saw entourage, but i saw ballers, which was basically 'the rock has a problem, then he doesn't have a problem and now owns the nfl???' which i think was the same basic gist
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Aug 18, 2021 06:01
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BiggerBoat posted:Exceptions to the rule? On the show? This does come from the sheer amount of time you get to hang out with these characters compared to a movie. This can be a blessing and a curse. The first time I watched Godfather Part 2, and you have the ending flashback scene with the family and Carlo and Tessio, I feel like it was everything I ever needed to understand Michael. If Godfather was a 12 episode miniseries, would I have gained more? Compared to what the "turn the pilot into a movie if it doesn't get picked up" plan for Sopranos, I don't think that pilot could even take any character and explain them as well as Godfather 1&2 did for Michael. edit: I do realize Godfather 1&2 is the length of a 6 episode miniseries. Still a big difference from 70-80 episodes of Wire, Mad Men, BB, and Sopranos. GoutPatrol fucked around with this message at 09:30 on Aug 18, 2021 |
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Aug 18, 2021 09:26
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Mike N Eich posted:Yeah this is true - and not to pick on the below comment about Livia (because I'm also guilty of this) its amazing how hard it is for audiences to sympathize with women in a similar situation. It's true. Again, only because we see very little of him and he is idolized in Tony's mind, his father seems a halfway likable figure even though he probably actually physically disclipined his children and surely actually murdered like a dozen people just by the virtue of being in the mob in the 60's-70's. For another uh, grand study in this subject, Animal Kingdom has the most evil mother ever IMHO and they do a huge deep dive on her - and you do sympathize with her at many points and feel bad after. It's not Sopranos-tier show (but hey like five shows are) but holy loving poo poo does it have it beat on hosed-up maternal (and grandmaternal!) relationships.
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Aug 18, 2021 12:48
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roomtone posted:I'm not saying sopranos isn't really well written because it is, but I've always thought this comment is unearned. People sympathise with monsters extremely easily. All you need to do is give them a little bit of attention, some foibles or an explanatory framework, and they'll usually be the most popular characters in anything. I think there's some complicated psychological and social reasons for this, but it's something that gets said about any story with unethcial characters that is also well written and even a lot of times when it isn't well written. I think also, we expect TV to be dramatized and make allowances for that when reading these characters. So when you see Paulie you might see your uncle who is a short-tempered dickhead, but cranked to 11. Chris is a great portrait of addiction, but he is loving up a multimillion dollar organization instead of the family Christmas dinner. Tony has the same problems a lot of people have, but his involve murder and big money, instead of work annoyances and family squabbles. We look for the similarities in people, and a lot of the "monstrous" behavior is set aside in our readings of these people because we know we are viewing them through the lens of a dramatic show that takes all the stakes and ramps them up to the max.
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Aug 18, 2021 14:34
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Not to beat the subject to death but I think some of it too comes from the way the Sopranos took the idea of gangsters and plopped them in a semi traditional modern family setting, with all the foibles, distractions, nuisances, everything that goes with suburbs and what have you (Psychiatry for example) so maybe we relate to them a little more than what we see the Corleones get up to or the wise guys in Goodfellas. Because we can relate to seeing a shrink and what not but not so much other poo poo. Mean Streets did a pretty good job de-glamorizing the mob life (especially for low level grunts). It humanized them and rendered backstories but still kept them unlikable.
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Aug 18, 2021 23:20
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Dr. Melfi is just a plot device to explicitly discuss the human condition in the show. For me, it doesn't make Tony more relatable, but I can understand his thinking on the business, life, and how he got to be the man he is. The last season, however, has Melfi conclude explicitly that psychiatry has not just failed to change Tony for the better, but taught him to be a better manipulators and criminal. I think it is a criticism of the practice, or at the very least the limitations of talk therapy. I also think practically it helped normalize therapy in our society. There's no stigmata any longer
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Aug 19, 2021 06:19
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Whale Vomit posted:There's no stigmata any longer You almost had me.
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Aug 19, 2021 10:50
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Ok the humor in the first season kinda rules. MARTY. KUNDUN. I LIKED IT.
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Aug 19, 2021 20:08
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It is weird that there is a big revelation about Tony using her to be a better manipulator, but that came up in season 1. It wasn’t new
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Aug 19, 2021 20:58
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CharlestheHammer posted:It is weird that there is a big revelation about Tony using her to be a better manipulator, but that came up in season 1. It wasn’t new iirc there was some psychology papers on the topic of sociopaths using therapy to become better abusers bleeding through to the mainstream news around the time of the final seasons, so that's why it came back into the story.
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Aug 19, 2021 21:15
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That’s the point, that’s why she drops him so quickly and without pretense or worrying about his feelings. She was told by her own psychiatrist, several colleagues, and her ex-husband for years that this was a bad idea and he’s only looking to save face and/or be manipulative. Richard even says in the first season, “Soon you’ll get past talk therapy and all it’s cheesy moral relativism and get down to good and evil, and he’s evil” Melfi felt like a loving idiot and a failure.
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Aug 19, 2021 21:17
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Yeah, I think that Melfi's realization was about herself, not Tony.
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Aug 19, 2021 21:23
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But why did she realize now? It’s not like she at that point had any new info to change the context. She just realized it
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Aug 19, 2021 21:25
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CharlestheHammer posted:But why did she realize now? It’s not like she at that point had any new info to change the context. sometimes people can have something obvious in front of them for years and not realize it but in-fiction, the thing that made it click for her was the study https://twitter.com/sopranoscaps/status/1428058226726084609?s=20
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Aug 19, 2021 21:27
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Eh it still just feels like a plot point of convience. They were ending so time to wrap they up
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Aug 19, 2021 21:32
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CharlestheHammer posted:It is weird that there is a big revelation about Tony using her to be a better manipulator, but that came up in season 1. It wasn’t new I didn't think it was weird at all. Thing is, though, I think the therapy and meds made him a WORSE mob boss overall. I can elaborate if anyone gives a poo poo.
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Aug 19, 2021 21:46
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CharlestheHammer posted:Yeah I don’t know why people think you need to do much to make bad people likable. I don't think you even need a tragic backstory. Just having the camera on a character will endear the audience to them. There's bias just in the fact that you're seeing from their perspective. BiggerBoat posted:I know what some of you guys are saying about likable bad guys who are viewed as cool or made into heroes but tend to think you're overselling it a bit. Its not guaranteed, for sure. And you can absolutely still hate a character. But the point is that you don't treat them like you would the same person if you came across them in life. You watch the show and you totally root for Tony Soprano. If you came across him IRL you'd either be terrified of him or hate him or both. This isn't to say that you will love any character in fiction, but to say that you treat fictional characters very different. For one thing, having no consequences, you can actively root for "bad" characters because it creates interesting drama, where in real life that poo poo would get old fast if you had to actually suffer the consequences firsthand. But also like I said, seeing things from someone else's point of view, while not getting to make choices, has a psychological effect on you too. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Aug 19, 2021 |
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Aug 19, 2021 21:46
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I don't have a great answer, but--Melfi has that moment after she survives sexual assault when she realizes that she could have the guy murdered with a quiet word to Tony. But she forswears that power. She's admitted to herself that she gets a vicarious thrill from Tony, but she thinks it isn't hurting anyone. The study convinces her otherwise.
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Aug 19, 2021 21:53
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CharlestheHammer posted:Eh it still just feels like a plot point of convience. They were ending so time to wrap they up Well... yeah, it's still a work of narrative fiction. Usually the end of the story is when things get wrapped up.
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Aug 19, 2021 21:58
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BiggerBoat posted:I didn't think it was weird at all. Yes please do
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Aug 19, 2021 22:05
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BiggerBoat posted:
I'd like to read it
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Aug 19, 2021 22:12
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^^^OKAY^^^ I think that all the things that one can glean from therapy and applying yourself to it are in direct opposition to the things that make a person an effective mob boss. Introspection, self awareness, learning empathy, tolerance, forgiveness, investigating your upbringing in ways that are challenging to the "traditional mob values" are just diametrically opposed. Straight up. The things that make you an effective criminal who first and foremost must be feared and never show weakness, always be strong, violent, etc. It all flies directly in the face of mental health. That kind of work requires a callousness that therapy is designed to chip away at and expose. Fix. It's the whole "you can't afford to be soft" thing. Or even APPEAR soft. Their entire criminal enterprise is built on extortion, lies, anger, retribution, rationalization and the direct threat of immediate termination by murder if you gently caress up, and so forth. Tony has panic attacks in large part due to all the things he experienced as a child and his horrible relationship with his parents. But he's modeled after them and they were living a criminal lifestyle too. There might be a few things that someone like Tony could pick up from psychology but they're almost always either things that he can use to manipulate other people or stuff that exposes the hypocrisy and ruthlessness his job demands in order to be effective, which he continuously discards. This is shown conclusively when Melfi reads the study about how people like Tony selectively choose what they get from it and discard the rest that doesn't suit their business. You can't be a mentally healthy, well adjusted individual and run a vast criminal enterprise that includes, say, threatening to cut off a man's nuts with some bolt cutters. For example, I think that some of the therapy stuff early on led to Tony's blind spot for Pussy being a rat. I think some of it led to him continuing to forgive Chris, who hosed his poo poo up a lot in practical terms and in ways that the other guys in the crew grew to resent. We're shown his dilemma with Vito, which I think is not only an increased "who gives a poo poo" tolerance for homosexuals (which we're clearly shown as out of bounds in mob life) but also a conflict with his income steam compounded with not wanting to kill a guy just for being queer. That empathy (which I don't believe was ENTIRELY based on Vito's earnings) is portrayed as a HUGE management problem among his employees, to where he's openly called out for it. I'm not sure he'd want to off him even if Vito was a mid level earner. The things he learned in therapy prevented him from doing the "right" thing. Auto whack the gay guy. Tony's soft spot for his cousin, Tony B, was built upon not only feelings of guilt but also came out in therapy sessions and was the catalyst for the war that drove season 6. All of the things that Tony could do to become more mentally healthy are things he refuses to address. Because he can't do those things and still be a mob boss. The skill set required for the position demands a level of narcissism, a propensity for violence, machismo, denial and a distinct lack of self reflection that in any way implies weakness. Or a lack of Gary Cooper. He's trying to straddle an impossible fence It's like being a day trader and learning to give a poo poo if anyone's poor. Or a general fighting a war who's squeamish about the sight of blood. You can't think about that poo poo. TL/DR: I have other examples of how therapy hosed up Tony's job but this a start. BiggerBoat fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Aug 19, 2021 |
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Aug 19, 2021 23:26
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I think thats all right on BiggerBoat, though I think you're a little softer on Tony than I am. (I think money and pride motivates a lot of his ambivalence in the cases of Tony B and Vito, but we're just quibbling over degree). Regarding Melfi - I think one of the reasons her shift seems so abrupt is that we really see very little of her on her own in Season 6. In the previous seasons we get more check-ins on her life, and I'm not sure we even see her outside of the therapy room until the penultimate episode, which is weird. But surely purposeful, given that there's no shortage of screentime in the final 20 episodes. What we are privy to is how much Tony is regressing both in his mob life and in therapy with Melfi. Of course Melfi was aware of everything in the past, his past backslides, his previous quitting, etc. etc. Sometimes it takes several repetitions of a crisis before people are able to fully split from someone else. She had her own unhealthy co-dependent relationship with Tony, and it was only from her realizing this several times, seeing his complete lack of progress, and then being publicly humiliated by Kupferberg, is she able to fully make the split. I found it totally believable.
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Aug 19, 2021 23:35
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I honestly didn't find Melfi's "shift" all that abrupt tbh. I felt it built pretty well over several seasons.
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Aug 20, 2021 00:41
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All of Melfi's peers were also giving her poo poo for 'treating' Tony. That kind of pressure, combined with the obvious odiousness of the man himself made the decision not that unreasonable or unexpected.
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Aug 20, 2021 01:00
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They also prodded her for stories and poo poo like that, seeming to think it was exciting and sexy
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Aug 20, 2021 01:05
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It's hard to rate Tony's abilities as a mob boss since he always comes to the brink of disaster before getting bailed out by luck or fate. Clearly he should have been consulting with Father Phil instead.
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Aug 20, 2021 01:35
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He did a hell of a lot better than a lot of real life Mob bosses
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Aug 20, 2021 01:38
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