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Medullah posted:I've got a normally intelligent friend who's big on the "Natural immunity after reinfection is better than vaccine immunity" train right now. "Every study that I've seen shows higher antibodies, higher t-cells, etc". Once I get this disease that can kill me or leave me with long term negative impacts, I'll be protected from getting it again! Perfect logic
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Sep 10, 2021 00:11
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Medullah posted:I've got a normally intelligent friend who's big on the "Natural immunity after reinfection is better than vaccine immunity" train right now. "Every study that I've seen shows higher antibodies, higher t-cells, etc". Science isn't the reason they got this opinion, and science isn't going to get them out of this opinion. Especially because a science based opinion would tell you: BigBallChunkyTime posted:So why not stack the deck and get both? Have some sort of large, super antibody army swimming around inside you. Natural immunity and vaccines don't cancel each other out. That's why science says to go get the vaccine if you got the 'rona. You're wasting your time if you're not working on the fundamental underlying issue that makes them take an antiscientific stance.
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Sep 10, 2021 00:16
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brugroffil posted:Once I get this disease that can kill me or leave me with long term negative impacts, I'll be protected from getting it again! I'm trying to at least see where his POV is coming from. This stems from being against the vaccine mandate, his position being "I'm vaccinated, I want people to get vaccinated but this is worrying me because of government overreach. Every study I've read showed people who have had the virus have more antibodies than those vaccinated, so why should they be forced to vaccinate? The government refuses to even STUDY natural immunity". There's a number of logical fallacies there but I'm just trying to find something from a reputable source that goes into the topic.
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Sep 10, 2021 00:19
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HonorableTB posted:beetus, the only suggestions I'd make about the OP are removing the electronicmaji quote-posts. That person is unhinged enough as it is that we probably shouldn't platform them if we don't have to, and new people coming in or who didn't see it at the time will not really have the right context for why those are funny posts so my feedback is to toss those out. It would also shorten the OP some too, it's fairly lengthy. Hey, thanks for the feedback. You made a great point and I've already edited that out. I'll replace Jaxyon's post with some mental health resources so that is still covered, and I will look at how many posts I should split the OP across for readability reasons, but I wanted to wait to get more submissions first. Looks like there's at least an OOCC post in the 2nd post that currently has a worthless Trump quote in it that I can use to split the work in progress op.
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Sep 10, 2021 00:23
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Natural immunity probably is a bit stronger than vaccines. Unfortunately it requires you to get a life-threatening illness to acquire it. Or, you can just get a shot that's nearly as effective and has zero chance of you dying and reduces how bad covid is if you do catch it. Gee it's a tough decision there, i can see how a very intelligent person would have trouble with it.
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Sep 10, 2021 00:25
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Ynglaur posted:Does the executive branch have the authority to mandate vaccines for, say, sitting federal judges? I mean, it would sure be a shame if a bunch of Republican-appointed judges resigned their office to avoid getting vaccinated. I don't think. Separation of powers.
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Sep 10, 2021 00:44
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since the vaccine doesn't protect you from catching or transmitting covid, wouldn't the strongest immunity plan be to get the vaccine and then intentionally find covid in the wild and get infected with it? I mean obviously that's a dumb rear end loving thing to do regardless but it sounds like he wants to go get wild covid anyway so may as well convince him to get vaxxed first lol
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Sep 10, 2021 01:01
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empty whippet box posted:since the vaccine doesn't protect you from catching or transmitting covid, wouldn't the strongest immunity plan be to get the vaccine and then intentionally find covid in the wild and get infected with it? I mean obviously that's a dumb rear end loving thing to do regardless but it sounds like he wants to go get wild covid anyway so may as well convince him to get vaxxed first lol Like most vocal antivaxxers, he's already vaxxed: Medullah posted:I'm trying to at least see where his POV is coming from. This stems from being against the vaccine mandate, his position being "I'm vaccinated, I want people to get vaccinated but this is worrying me because of government overreach. Every study I've read showed people who have had the virus have more antibodies than those vaccinated, so why should they be forced to vaccinate? The government refuses to even STUDY natural immunity". He wants to experiment on people less fortunate than him for purely theoretical quasi-libertarian reasons
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Sep 10, 2021 01:07
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Medullah posted:I'm trying to at least see where his POV is coming from. This stems from being against the vaccine mandate, his position being "I'm vaccinated, I want people to get vaccinated but this is worrying me because of government overreach. Every study I've read showed people who have had the virus have more antibodies than those vaccinated, so why should they be forced to vaccinate? The government refuses to even STUDY natural immunity". If the armor in the game I'm playing gives me 90% immunity to poison but I can augment that by adding a couple gems to increase it by 5%, why wouldn't I? This may be a flimsy analogy but I'm failing to understand why anybody would forego an additional layer of protection regardless of if you have or haven't been infected.
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Sep 10, 2021 01:07
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I think there's some studies showing prior covid + 1 shot of mRNA are just as robust as two shots and no covid.
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Sep 10, 2021 01:11
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Virgin natural immunity vs the Chad gigavaxxer with max titers
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Sep 10, 2021 01:12
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Medullah posted:I've got a normally intelligent friend who's big on the "Natural immunity after reinfection is better than vaccine immunity" train right now. "Every study that I've seen shows higher antibodies, higher t-cells, etc". There is an Israeli pre-print study that indicates that vaccinated individuals are more likely to later test positive for infection than previously-infected unvaccinated people who have recovered. There's of course a significant caveat here: Unvaccinated people are much less likely to get tested period, particularly the ones who have recovered from Covid and now believe themselves immune. News of the study came out at the end of August, which is why it is in the news. As usual, the limitations of pre-prints really need to be emphasized. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1
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Sep 10, 2021 01:16
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:How can you enforce any sort of vaccine mandate when there is no meaningful record-keeping as pertains to vaccination? Technically there is meaningful record keeping, in the sense that every vaccination (and not just COVID) is tracked by state vaccine registries. The problem is that they are state vaccine registries and are designed around HIPAA compliance and data security (ish) and don't have mechanisms for secure third-party verification or even cross-state interoperability. Throw that together with the dumbass paper cards and maybe some states will put a system in place for employee verification but it's pretty unlikely any time soon for venue verification.
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Sep 10, 2021 01:22
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Jaxyon posted:Virgin natural immunity vs the Chad gigavaxxer with max titers I'm not gonna be bested by some natural infection sucker, and I'll boost every day if I need to until I've got maximum titers making my eyes glow like a Fremen
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Sep 10, 2021 01:24
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Talk is cheap. It's easy to be a big strong internet antivaxxer man when there are no consequences but the average chud will fold in a hot second as soon as they are staring down the prospect of being subjected to the very poverty fueled wood chipper that they helped build over the last 50 years.
cr0y fucked around with this message at 01:31 on Sep 10, 2021 |
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Sep 10, 2021 01:27
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Kaal posted:There is an Israeli pre-print study that indicates that vaccinated individuals are more likely to later test positive for infection than previously-infected unvaccinated people who have recovered. There's of course a significant caveat here: Unvaccinated people are much less likely to get tested period, particularly the ones who have recovered from Covid and now believe themselves immune. News of the study came out at the end of August, which is why it is in the news. As usual, the limitations of pre-prints really need to be emphasized. The UK longitudinal VE study also has some estimates for effectiveness of prior infection, which were estimated at 72% (58-82%) for VE against all infections and 77% (66-85%) against Ct<30 (which was used to indicate higher viral loads). That's compared to 80% and 84% for two-dose Pfizer. Unfortunately, they didn't include "prior infection only" in their graphs showing effectiveness over time, which is too bad because it would be good to know how it stacks up on durability. At best it seems like a bit worse protection with a much more dangerous inoculation, which is why I absolutely refuse to call it "natural immunity". It's either "infection-acquired immunity" for boring technical stuff or "the stupid idiot's deadly inoculation" if someone is seriously arguing for it over vaccination.
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Sep 10, 2021 01:47
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Stickman posted:
That phrasing also makes it sound like vaccine-acquired immunity is somehow not "natural". (And I bet a bunch of the people arguing that getting infected is natural immunity also believe that COVID is secretly a lab-created Chinese bioweapon).
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Sep 10, 2021 01:53
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OddObserver posted:That phrasing also makes it sound like vaccine-acquired immunity is somehow not "natural". (And I bet a bunch of the people arguing that getting infected is natural immunity also believe that COVID is secretly a lab-created Chinese bioweapon). Yeah, that's the main problem. "Natural" has been utterly destroyed as a useful word and should be purged from technical lexica. There's too much unwarranted moral authority attached to it, especially in health and medicine.
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Sep 10, 2021 01:58
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Medullah posted:I've got a normally intelligent friend who's big on the "Natural immunity after reinfection is better than vaccine immunity" train right now. "Every study that I've seen shows higher antibodies, higher t-cells, etc". It’s an intellectually nonsensical position. If the consequences of a “natural” infection are no big deal such that they welcome it, why the gently caress would they care about protection from reinfection? empty whippet box posted:since the vaccine doesn't protect you from catching or transmitting covid, wouldn't the strongest immunity plan be to get the vaccine and then intentionally find covid in the wild and get infected with it? I mean obviously that's a dumb rear end loving thing to do regardless but it sounds like he wants to go get wild covid anyway so may as well convince him to get vaxxed first lol Break into a BSL-4 lab to get the original SARS.
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Sep 10, 2021 02:08
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Epic High Five posted:Per OSHA, there is no elastomeric that works with any kind of facial hair that is present at sealing sites. In some cases people have it tight enough or little enough hair there to still pass a seal test, but it's nothing to count on. Only choice is to shave, do a beard wrap and stand out even more, or get one of those PAPR hoods and become a Contagion extra You can do what some Sikhs do.
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Sep 10, 2021 02:12
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This was a really good breakdown on the evidence of ivermectin effectiveness: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0jzRPZogTI TL;DR, it does not help
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Sep 10, 2021 02:24
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Medullah posted:I've got a normally intelligent friend who's big on the "Natural immunity after reinfection is better than vaccine immunity" train right now. "Every study that I've seen shows higher antibodies, higher t-cells, etc". Don't they want to have enormous healthy titers?
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Sep 10, 2021 02:28
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I thought they should make vaccination a requirement to use an FDIC insured account, but the OSHA thing works too. I get that 85% of chuds said they'd quit or whatever but I would be shocked if more than 1% of the country quit their job over a vaccine/testing requirement.
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Sep 10, 2021 02:56
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I'd brought this up in a previous post! I'd love to know what beard wrap solutions exist since commercially available ones don't seem to exist Unless you're doing this though, unless you have one of the approved facial hair styles, you're out of compliance per OSHA no matter what
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Sep 10, 2021 03:05
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A GIANT PARSNIP posted:I thought they should make vaccination a requirement to use an FDIC insured account, but the OSHA thing works too. There are so many wonderful paying job openings going unfilled because of socialist unemployment benefits. Anyone who quits over a vaccine requirement will be fine.
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Sep 10, 2021 03:05
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New OP looks good! Seb's correction on the CSPAM citations about exhalation valves would be nice maybe but I feel like it's probably covered in the Naomi Wu twitter thread. Still, can't be too cautious.
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Sep 10, 2021 03:06
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Wow I can't believe Biden actually did something. I still don't understand why he isn't quarantining travelers when the failure to do that led to the delta variant coming here, and who knows what else may pop up, but at least he bothered to finally use one of the sweeping powers of his office to mitigate the mass death sweeping the land 
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Sep 10, 2021 03:09
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Epic High Five posted:New OP looks good! Seb's correction on the CSPAM citations about exhalation valves would be nice maybe but I feel like it's probably covered in the Naomi Wu twitter thread. Still, can't be too cautious. Thank you! I plan on keeping the new thread's op updated, and I thought that was an appropriate thing to include with the other post since it was a fairly recent back and forth. Some stuff will undoubtedly get cycled out as newer info and stuff comes out as well. If anyone who has contributed so far would like a cert for an av change, title change, etc pm me if you have access to PMs or post in here quoting this if you don't; I'm going to make a list to submit for the admins.
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Sep 10, 2021 03:16
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Thanks for working on updating the thread OP, it looks great!
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Sep 10, 2021 03:22
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Not sure if there’s room for good news but it looks like Sacramento County is getting over its spike. 
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Sep 10, 2021 03:26
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I didn't see it posted so I wanted to link this week's episode of TWiV. They had on Shane Crotty who is an immunologist, vaccine researcher, and virologist. They had a really in depth but understandable discussion of the many different aspects of immunity and vaccination. I thought it was a really good discussion of the various types of immunity you get from infection, immunization, and both combined with a reasonable discussion about the different sides of the booster discussion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEB4oxO9F1A There was also a listener who sent in this paper which I thought was interesting. In the paper they tested patients using lateral flow antigen tests like you'd get at a pharmacy (and which Biden is trying to make more available) as well as with PCR. They then tried to culture virus from the patient samples and it turned out the lateral flow tests were better at predicting the presence of infectious virus than PCR (90% vs 70%) since PCR is so sensitive it tends to be positive even when the patient doesn't have any infectious virus in their nose. I've been thinking the antigen tests are probably the best tests for testing vaccinated people since they detect the presence of actual viral proteins so probably correlate better with whether someone is capable of transmitting. Since PCR is so sensitive we might be getting a lot of positive tests from vaccinated people who aren't capable of actually spreading the virus. As a side benefit if we defense production acted the antigen tests we could be giving them away like candy so you could test twice a day if you wanted and tell immediately if you had enough virus to transmit instead of testing with PCR and either isolating for 10 days from a positive despite not having transmissible virus or getting your results a week later after you've already infected a bunch of people.
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Sep 10, 2021 03:39
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How much sense that makes depends on whether the patient ever had enough virus to be infectious. In that case a PCR positive would still be useful because their contacts should be testing/isolating and so that the patient's infection is known in their medical history (and also for surveillance). If the tests can accurately distinguish levels of contagiousness it seems like it would make more sense to use PCR and follow up with lateral flow to determine recommendations.Tayter Swift posted:Not sure if there’s room for good news but it looks like Sacramento County is getting over its spike. Hopefully, though I'm cautious about any trends for the next week since there was a pretty big holiday testing bubble over the weekend. Stickman fucked around with this message at 03:50 on Sep 10, 2021 |
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Sep 10, 2021 03:46
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Professor Beetus posted:Thank you! I plan on keeping the new thread's op updated, and I thought that was an appropriate thing to include with the other post since it was a fairly recent back and forth. Some stuff will undoubtedly get cycled out as newer info and stuff comes out as well. For those interested in respirator and half mask outflow NIOSH is in the middle of doing the research now: https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npptl/respirators/exhalationvalve/default.html Bottom of the page for list of topics, under the + signs. Given the mechanism of action for half mask valves it should be on par with the disposables they tested for droplet blocking but may not be sufficient for aerosols. If true would mean it would've likely been enough to cut transmission on OG covid but maybe not sufficient for Delta; won't know for sure till the studies finish and we get data. Practical measures right now mean probably need a source control filter or do the Wu style in/out filter option if you need a truly sterile source control. So specifically if you are working in a high risk healthcare environment. For stopping transmission its probably still OK if you don't take it off around people, ever. Also note that altering the mask like Wu suggests is a real easy way to gently caress it up and cause filtration problems. If you want to go that way they do have double filter masks but they are brand new (2021), harder to find, more expensive, and harder to breath through. If you live with other people or get sloppy with the half mask and get infected you might still be able to spread Delta/whatever else comes later. It's probably still better than a knock off KN95 and almost definitely better than any kind of cloth mask but probably not as good as 'real' KN95s, N95s, or P100s without valves. edit: Given those caveats I still use a half mask myself, I just have a pack of N95s I know are real in the closet in case I need to filter outgoing for some reason. Objective Action fucked around with this message at 03:51 on Sep 10, 2021 |
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Sep 10, 2021 03:47
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Phigs posted:Oregon has a fully vaxxed rate of 58.8% and a population of 4.2 million and here is their report on breakthroughs: https://www.oregon.gov/oha/covid19/Documents/DataReports/Breakthrough-Case-Report.pdf Colorado's reporting currently: 3.4x less likely to get COVID 3.7X less likely to be hospitalized 5.8x less likely to die https://public.tableau.com/views/Va...:device=desktop 57.7% fully vaccinated, similar to Oregon. That's still not the greatest odds in the world, but apparently the median ages of hospitalization and death are 59 and 79 respectively. So, if you're under 50 or so with a normal immune system, it seems like the vaccines do an OK job even against delta?
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Sep 10, 2021 03:55
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7of7 posted:As a side benefit if we defense production acted the antigen tests we could be giving them away like candy so you could test twice a day if you wanted and tell immediately if you had enough virus to transmit... What antibody test production capacity could be repurposed to that end? Or are you talking whole-cloth new production? John_A_Tallon fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Sep 10, 2021 |
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Sep 10, 2021 04:08
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Is it okay to bring up Florida again? I saw the discussion in the updated OP and this NY Times article had offered some reasons why Florida's surge is so bad despite its higher-than-average vaccination rate: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/28/us/florida-coronavirus-covid-19-vaccines-variant.html quote:What Went Wrong With the Pandemic in Florida
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Sep 10, 2021 04:43
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Professor Beetus posted:If anyone who has contributed so far would like a cert for an av change, title change, etc pm me if you have access to PMs or post in here quoting this if you don't; I'm going to make a list to submit for the admins. Qtiyd
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Sep 10, 2021 05:08
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Hey sweet I'm quoted in the op 
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Sep 10, 2021 05:13
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A GIANT PARSNIP posted:I thought they should make vaccination a requirement to use an FDIC insured account, but the OSHA thing works too. I don't think yours would have worked--without getting into weeds, it's hard to see how a public health regulation is within the scope of the authority to regulate banking. Also, if you're imagining that the government could prevent people from accessing their bank accounts if they're unvaccinated, there are fairly clear limits on the ability of the government to deprive people of their property. This is better--there's a much clearer link between vaccination and workplace safety. Still may get struck down, but the case seems much stronger.
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Sep 10, 2021 05:25
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Professor Beetus posted:If anyone who has contributed so far would like a cert for an av change, title change, etc pm me if you have access to PMs or post in here quoting this if you don't; I'm going to make a list to submit for the admins. What sorta stuff can you do?
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Sep 10, 2021 05:54
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