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Momomo posted:They've established that defending yourself is something you have to actively do, or else even basic stuff can kill you, so I think technically Hit could kill Jiren. On the other hand, Jiren comes across as someone who would never lower his guard, so I imagine Hit wouldn't get the opportunity. Even when he used his magic time freeze ability on Jiren, he was about to break out of it, so I don't think Hit could really do much ultimately. All out Hit vs Jiren would probably be fun to watch done right.
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Sep 22, 2021 09:38
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| # ? Apr 27, 2024 19:05 |
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oh my god I can't believe I just realized the Tournament of Power was just a Smash Bros tourny, how did I not gloss to that until now
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Sep 22, 2021 15:01
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Been 3 years and still can't believe 17 was MVP. what a great comeback to the franchise:quality(75)/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/elcomercio/5YUIANIZINCEXCPI4G63TPIARQ.jpg)
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Sep 22, 2021 19:46
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also as much poo poo people gave Super, Latin America united for the end of the ToP as if it was the World Cup final is something no anime will ever top https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMmc_1GOuQk
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Sep 22, 2021 19:48
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The ending to the ToP absolutely made the entire mess of it worth the while
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Sep 22, 2021 21:08
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Black August posted:The ending to the ToP absolutely made the entire mess of it worth the while Yeah it pulled off the ending and huge moments like surfing Kamehameha that it just retroactively became one of the best arcs. I recently rewatched the highlights and ignored the stuff I didn't like and it actually was the best possibly with personal edits.
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Sep 23, 2021 00:36
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To be fair treating Dragonball in general like that isn’t a bad idea
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Sep 23, 2021 00:53
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I rewatched the entire ToP with some friends who hadn't seen Super pretty recently and there's very few parts that I would consider actually bad. The only three really, really low points are the Tien episode, the Universe 4 episode against the tiny bug dude, and Master Roshi's sex creep victory(though at least the rest of his appearance is good).
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Sep 23, 2021 00:54
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Those are the only egregiously bad parts but there's a lot of stuff I'd say is mediocre in it too. I don't remember say, Cabba's one episode exactly setting the world on fire.
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Sep 23, 2021 01:00
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I thought the TOP was boring. Way too long, and basically all of it is just "look how awesome U7 is" - I think U6 and 11(? Whichever one Jiren's is) are the only other ones that accomplish anything at all in the tournament. It was obvious the entire time that someone from U7 would win and they'd just wish back all the other universes, so there were no stakes and I ended up finishing solely due to inertia. Also the whole "Goku is bored and wants to punch people so he condemns the multiverse to battle royale annihilation" bit made me hate him and long for his death Flesnolk fucked around with this message at 02:31 on Sep 23, 2021 |
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Sep 23, 2021 02:27
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The ToP I think does stand better on rewatch in some degree because you're not waiting a week between episodes. It still has its weak points but I think fewer than the Buu or Cell sagas. Flesnolk posted:I thought the TOP was boring. Way too long, and basically all of it is just "look how awesome U7 is" - I think U6 and 11(? Whichever one Jiren's is) are the only other ones that accomplish anything at all in the tournament. It was obvious the entire time that someone from U7 would win and they'd just wish back all the other universes, so there were no stakes and I ended up finishing solely due to inertia. I don't quite get that because "The heroes are going to win and wish the people who died back" is true of literally every single Dragonball arc. The closest you have to stakes are an extremely brief period in the Saiyan saga and I guess the Black Dragons? How and why they get there is the point, and if anything TOP was more interesting because "how they get there" involves Goku and Frieza teaming up and Android 17 of all people winning which was a wild combination of characters you hadn't seen since Yajirobi of all people helped beat Vegeta. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Sep 23, 2021 |
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Sep 23, 2021 02:43
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Masako Nozawa plays a main character in one of the new Star Wars Visions shorts. That was a treat to hear. I don’t get the accusation that it was Goku’s idea to make “the losers get erased” a stipulation of the ToP. In fact, none of it was his idea. It was all Zen’o. First Beerus and Champa hold their own illegal tournament. Zen’o comes to stop it, but becomes intrigued and decides to hold one of his own with most of the universes competing. Of course Goku is excited. Then he reveals the losers will be erased. Then he reveals he planned to erase all of those universes anyway and this way, at least one more of them would survive. Thinking it was Goku’s idea is giving him too much credit.
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Sep 23, 2021 02:57
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To be fair, before the literal last episode goes "this was Zen'o's plan all along," it definitely looks like Goku gave him the idea.
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Sep 23, 2021 02:59
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The revelation at the end is that the winner would have also been erased if they didn’t wish back the others. The revelation Zen’o was going to erase the universes anyway happens earlier. And again, of course Goku wants to fight in a big multiverse tournament but would never willingly want them to be erased afterwards. He let Vegeta and even Freeza live (the first time) and wished for Boo to be reincarnated just to get to fight him again. Erasing his enemies is like the opposite of what Goku wants.
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Sep 23, 2021 03:11
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I gotta wonder how many other Universes (and fighters from 7) would have been as smart as 17 and made that wish.
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Sep 23, 2021 03:16
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As long as the U7 winner wasn't Frieza they were good, but it seemed like everyone else in the tournament would've made a selfish wish and gotten wiped.
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Sep 23, 2021 03:19
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Flesnolk posted:As long as the U7 winner wasn't Frieza they were good, but it seemed like everyone else in the tournament would've made a selfish wish and gotten wiped. I mean 17 said something about a boat but ultimately changed his mind, I'd like to imagine the weight of the situation would have convinced others to as well.
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Sep 23, 2021 03:22
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I remember when the Grand Priest reveals Zen'o was gonna erase the universes but then decided to hold a tournament to let one survive, the next episode you have the Kaioshin from the 11th Universe look at the camera and explain that because of Goku's idea now one universe gets to survive so he is not actually the villain that doomed us all and I thought "wow, that's very condescending towards the audience", but I see now that even that was not enough.
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Sep 23, 2021 03:23
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Just because I didn't like it doesn't mean I was too stupid to get it, knock off the condescension
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Sep 23, 2021 03:42
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Technically Champa should have gotten all the credit anyway, not like Goku came up with his tournament
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Sep 23, 2021 03:44
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He was Champan at the bit for a fight
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Sep 23, 2021 03:52
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lol stop being so deathly serious, it was a great excuse for a bunch of fighting and cool rear end scenes, the point of the ToP was to develop some characters like Vegeta and 17 and to let Goku get pushed to the next level by an extremely tense situation he was too dumb to see coming which is why he's #1
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Sep 23, 2021 04:01
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The point of the ToP was to make sure that anyone left that still liked Tenshinhan were eliminated as well
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Sep 23, 2021 04:05
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I'm not gonna try to convince people it's bad or anything, it was just a huge miss for me :V Maybe if the arc were a bit shorter it would've grated on me less. It's like 100 episodes or something IIRC
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Sep 23, 2021 04:13
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lezard_valeth posted:also as much poo poo people gave Super, Latin America united for the end of the ToP as if it was the World Cup final is something no anime will ever top poo poo man, latinamericans don't come together in such hordes to watch the world cup on TV, unless the match was in their local city. This kinda thing was done in multiple cities in most countries of Latinamerica, it was completely unheard of.
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Sep 23, 2021 04:15
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lezard_valeth posted:I remember when the Grand Priest reveals Zen'o was gonna erase the universes but then decided to hold a tournament to let one survive, the next episode you have the Kaioshin from the 11th Universe look at the camera and explain that because of Goku's idea now one universe gets to survive so he is not actually the villain that doomed us all and I thought "wow, that's very condescending towards the audience", but I see now that even that was not enough. And honestly, I felt like that line was thrown in more to get the audience off of Goku's back, because I definitely remember the discourse at the time it was airing was "wow, Goku really gonna wipe out a few universes just so he can fight some strong people huh"
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Sep 23, 2021 04:55
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That was my impression at the time too, it felt like a saving throw. "poo poo, we made Goku look too bloodthirsty, throw some lines in to make it okay."
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Sep 23, 2021 06:49
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The ToP was pretty good at what it was, which was an excuse for U7 and some of U6 to get cool fightscenes more quickly and efficiently than an actual storyline or even a standard tournament would. If you start thinking too hard about it, it doesn't make any sense (like how it's a battle royale but U7 knocks out the majority of contestants), but Dragonball plots rarely make sense if you think too hard about the details.Shinji2015 posted:And honestly, I felt like that line was thrown in more to get the audience off of Goku's back, because I definitely remember the discourse at the time it was airing was "wow, Goku really gonna wipe out a few universes just so he can fight some strong people huh" Goku never asked for any universes to be deleted, he just wanted to fight dudes. I'm pretty sure the discourse was more along the lines of "good job, Goku, everyone told you the ultragod was dangerous, but you just couldn't stop asking when it was going to hold a tournament and now look what trouble you accidentally dragged 75% of the multiverse into". He was thrilled about the idea of a multiverse tournament and kept reminding Zeno about it, but he had no idea there was going to be a deletion rule and definitely didn't want there to be one. But he didn't really get a say in that! It was foolishness, not malice - he got along just fine with Zeno, since they were both basically just kids seeking out fun, so he never really understood why everyone else was terrified of Zeno or why they were all urging Goku to stop loving talking to Zeno.
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Sep 23, 2021 06:54
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I got a somewhat opposite impression that it was done to solidify Zeno as completely terrifying, a mercurial child creating and erasing entire universes on a whim. Even the eternally dunderheaded Goku has brief moments of lucidity regarding how dumb it was to ignore Beerus and interact with Zeno directly.
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Sep 23, 2021 06:56
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I don’t think Goku would knowingly let people die to get a good fight but, like, it’s disingenuous to pretend that he hasn’t let potential mass murderers (Piccolo Jr), actual mass murderers (Vegeta) and dormant future mass murderers (androids) go free cause he wanted a good fight because he’s too simple and childish to consider things in terms of “if I let Vegeta go for a fight he might murder a whole village and a trucker before he turns into a good guy”. So when the discussion on the tournament comes up it’s mostly people dogging him because he’s set that precedent before even if it’s not quite how it plays out (to my understanding).
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Sep 23, 2021 07:06
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Hasn't Toriyama himself said all Goku gives a poo poo about is A Good Fight? So I'll give Super props for sticking to the concept
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Sep 23, 2021 07:20
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Flesnolk posted:As long as the U7 winner wasn't Frieza they were good, but it seemed like everyone else in the tournament would've made a selfish wish and gotten wiped. The U6 folks probably would have made a similar wish. At the very least Cabba would have, and he probably would have convinced Caulifla/Kale/Kefla to do so. Maybe Hit, too, since Hit is fight friends with Goku.
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Sep 23, 2021 11:29
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From what I remember, the Zenos were already planning to erase those universes. Goku just happens to drop in on them and allude to how cool it would be to have another tournament like the the one between Universes 6 and 7. One of the Zenos is like, hey I never got to see that! The other is like, yeah it was awesome. So they then decide (or the grand priest gives them the idea) to hold a tournament with all the universes that they were gonna destroy. Now, the other universes THINK this was gokus doing (I remember specifically Bergamo getting in gokus face about it), and Goku didn’t outright deny it. Instead he played into their anger to get a better fight out of them. But, without Goku all their universes would have been destroyed no matter what.
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Sep 23, 2021 12:33
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Does anyone like or even think of Cabba? I thought he(?) was a horrible looking design with an extremely dull character. Contrast Kale/Caulifla and people at least have an opinion on them. (for the record I love Kale and I'm okay with Caulifla)
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Sep 23, 2021 12:59
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I mean, I like Cabba all right for all that he really comes up. Just a muppet looking nice boy getting his rear end kicked all the time. But then, I like Vegeta and Vegeta accessories.
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Sep 23, 2021 13:49
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Cabba had some hype behind him when he was first revealed to be a saiyan, and sure he’s built like a pipe cleaner with the personality to match but to me that meant he had some hidden depths to reveal during the U6 tournament. Turns out Cabba’s just like that. The Vegeta protégé was an interesting idea but it never went anywhere and Cabba got no interesting developments during the tournament of power. Then Kale and Caulifla came along and did everything Cabba was supposed to do with better designs and well, not sure why Cabba’s still here.
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Sep 23, 2021 13:52
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Cabba was an interesting concept as a mirror universe Vegeta. In practice, though, the writers just made him Vegeta's surrogate son so that there's someone for Vegeta to be grumpy-proud of now that they don't let Trunks come to fights anymore.
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Sep 23, 2021 14:53
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I like Cabba because he would be the generic protagonist except he is in a universe with Lady Goku and Lady Brolly
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Sep 23, 2021 15:01
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I like Cabba for being cabbage-plain. I think on some level Vegeta knows this is his alternate-universe self, and he's a young kind man who still has Super Saiyan potential, which Vegeta wants to cultivate and preserve as Saiyans who didn't become monsters. It also helps the joke that Cabba really is the Vegeta, because he's completely and forever outshined by alt-Goku. The joke keeps going from there, since Caulifla is a righteous thug who absolutely feels like "What if Goku never bumped his head", and she's dating alt-Broly.
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Sep 23, 2021 15:18
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I think it would be neat if they did a saga in a different universe, maybe go over to universe 6 and see what it has to offer while training the other saiyans, or have an arc where one universe is trying to invade the other, maybe one of the universes we haven't seen before other than their destroyer, and they reach out to some of the champions from the other universes to help.
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Sep 23, 2021 16:30
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