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Thanks again. I appreciate the double-check. I understand most of the theory behind the negotiation, but most of my jobs up to this point were hire on the spot sort of deals. The fiddly bits of putting it into effect are what I'm stumbling through. What sort of benefits would you all consider baseline, normal, or commonly accepted? (small company office job, usa, not big tech, if it matters) TheParadigm fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Sep 30, 2021 |
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Sep 30, 2021 16:42
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TheParadigm posted:Thanks again. I appreciate the double-check. I understand most of the theory behind the negotiation, but most of my jobs up to this point were hire on the spot sort of deals. The fiddly bits of putting it into effect are what I'm stumbling through. At a construction firm, 3 weeks is pretty standard for entry level (though many have 2 weeks), stepping up with experience (1 extra day per year experience is pretty common, you should easily at least be able to negotiate up to your level of experience). All the firms I've worked at had combined sick/PTO but quite a few have them separate. Insurance and 401k benefits should kick in at a max of 30 days after beginning employment. Most have vesting schedules for the 401k matching (step-up over 3-5 years is common), but I've absolutely never seen "we don't match until your 24th month working." I've only worked for mid-sized firms though.
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Sep 30, 2021 16:59
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That sort of benefits are unfortunately common at very small companies. They don't have the resources to offer $bigcompany style benefits. The only thing you'll probably be able to negotiate is the hourly rate.
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Sep 30, 2021 17:02
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TheParadigm posted:Thanks. Do you rephrase the salary to hourly, or just keep it at the x per year verbage? I'd keep terminology the same as they used in the offer for any compensation discussion. The conversion would asking for 30/hr (~60k/year). That sounds like a lot above their top range, but it's really not.
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Sep 30, 2021 17:19
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skipdogg posted:That sort of benefits are unfortunately common at very small companies. They don't have the resources to offer $bigcompany style benefits. The only thing you'll probably be able to negotiate is the hourly rate. This is correct about insurance but bullshit about PTO. One week of PTO a year is reflective of a cheapskate mentality and never anything else. It's standard for the horrendously abusive retail sector. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 17:26 on Sep 30, 2021 |
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Sep 30, 2021 17:22
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Eric the Mauve posted:This is correct about insurance but bullshit about PTO. One week of PTO a year is reflective of a cheapskate mentality and never anything else. It's standard for the horrendously abusive retaio sector. Yeah, you're 100% right for sure.
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Sep 30, 2021 17:27
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I would consider 2 weeks vacation the absolute minimum and even then it's iffy when they are most certainly combining PTO and sick time. Hell I'd check if they aren't combining that with holiday too. My current place tried to pull that poo poo with my offer (the whole saga is up thread a ways) and I put my foot down and said it's a deal breaker. Boom, extra 7 days added. The 2 year wait until match is bullshit too. They're already puting you on a vesting schedule, that's just being cheap on top of it. All of those things are negotiable, and it really is a matter of "I'm really excited to join! I'll be happy to sign today if you can meet x, y, z." You need to know your walk away totals and if they don't meet all of them, you do that. Don't cave and accept something you aren't ok with.
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Sep 30, 2021 18:48
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Eric the Mauve posted:This is correct about insurance but bullshit about PTO. One week of PTO a year is reflective of a cheapskate mentality and never anything else. It's standard for the horrendously abusive retail sector. Well, I heard back. The sick leave policy IS seperate, but its still bad. Sick leave: 1 hour per 30 hours worked up to 48 hours banked; so 8 days, and about 4 weeks to earn one day off. Still seems on the low end for america, but not bad/better than expected (no other bonus/shot down - deflected into quarterly reviews) Yolo # time? Yolo # time.
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Sep 30, 2021 19:27
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Well, I heard back and the offer was pulled. Not sure if missed opportunity or dodged bullet. Thanks for walking me through it.
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Sep 30, 2021 22:38
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If they pulled the offer for the sin of negotiating, on top of all the other red flags we already saw, then it is 100% certain that working for that company would have been a Dantean nightmare. You played it perfectly provoking them to disqualify themselves from employing you. They are only looking to exploit dumb, desperate, and/or timid people.
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Sep 30, 2021 23:00
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TheParadigm posted:Well, I heard back and the offer was pulled. Not sure if missed opportunity or dodged bullet. e: but also it sucks, sorry they pulled that poo poo on you :/ fourwood fucked around with this message at 05:10 on Oct 1, 2021 |
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Sep 30, 2021 23:04
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Definitely a bullet dodged. I've only seen examples of pulling an offer after attempted negotiation in situations like this where the offer is already terrible. You don't want to work somewhere they pull offers for negotiating.
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Sep 30, 2021 23:37
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Yeah feel good about that. You missed out on the "opportunity" of being exploited and miserable.
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Sep 30, 2021 23:59
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Absolutely bullet dodged, for all the reasons stated above. Good luck with your next one.
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Oct 1, 2021 00:23
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Had something similar happen years ago. It was a drat good thing, too. You’re better off.
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Oct 1, 2021 05:04
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Horrible offer pulled by horrible company. Imagine what they do to people who work there if THIS is the behaviour they think will attract good employees. Glad they failed your vetting process so your life wouldn't become an actual hell because you started working there.
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Oct 1, 2021 08:43
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I'll repeat something I've said before on this subject: one important reason you should always ask for more, even if you're happy with the initial offer, is that it gives you one last chance to dodge a bullet. If the company pulls the offer for negotiating (rather than just saying "sorry, that's our best offer") then you would have hated working there and they saved your rear end from misery by outing themselves at the last minute.
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Oct 1, 2021 12:52
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I've read every page of this thread and it's fantastic advice. As a UK goon currently looking for work I just wanted to comment on how many peoples heads have melted when I've refused to name my current salary or expectations. I think it's become common in this country for a new position to be a few grand more from the last. I'm a confident person and don't have the slightest problem politely saying "that's not something I'm willing to discuss / I'm comparing apples and oranges until I know more about the position and its benefits" but I've also found that silence is a really powerful tool that should never be underestimated. I had a few conversations in person and over the phone where I've been happy to just sit there and smile or allow the phone to go dead. It's great when they feel they have to ask if you are still on the other end of the line; they know they have said something you didn't like and you can just let them walk it back! I had a hilarious call from a HR representative this week who called to ask what my current salary was, I obviously declined to answer but preemptively asked for the range as I didn't want them wasting MY time. She told me she didn't know..... I let the phone go dead for a good 20 seconds before saying "I'm busy right now, I need you to find out and get back in touch with an answer before we can proceed". I'm sure she put the phone down thinking wtf I was meant to say that...... deported to Canada fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Oct 1, 2021 |
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Oct 1, 2021 15:24
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May have been addressed before but I had a recruiter reach out and in the message he gave me the salary range. If i talk to him and he asks what i think what do i say? Is it just “it sounds reasonable now and we can move forward” or something similar?
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Oct 1, 2021 15:51
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Is it, in fact, reasonable? deported to Canada (great avatar btw): Great post. I will probably make a bit of an effortpost sometime soon in response to it.
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Oct 1, 2021 15:55
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Ive always said "that could be a good start". That keeps it vague enough to not commit to anything, even if that band is a lot higher than what I was expecting.
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Oct 1, 2021 15:57
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Keystoned posted:May have been addressed before but I had a recruiter reach out and in the message he gave me the salary range. If i talk to him and he asks what i think what do i say? "I'll have to wait until I understand the full scope of job responsibilities and benefits to say for sure whether I'm on board but I'm okay moving forward with this information" if you want to be more polite, but "it's a good start" is pretty much perfect They should be selling this job to you, you should not be chasing it.
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Oct 1, 2021 15:59
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Not a Children posted:They should be selling this job to you, you should not be chasing it. This is how I think you should see employment. Its a fine balance between confidence and arrogance but I've never met a senior manager or managing director who didn't think they were king poo poo. Best advice I ever got was from my brother who said "if you don't value your time, nobody else will"
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Oct 1, 2021 16:40
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a dingus posted:Ive always said "that could be a good start". That keeps it vague enough to not commit to anything, even if that band is a lot higher than what I was expecting. Yup. My go-to is, 'I think we'll be able to make that work'. The first time I threw that out was in response to getting a number that was 2x my comp at the time. Just keep it cool
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Oct 1, 2021 16:45
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a dingus posted:Ive always said "that could be a good start". That keeps it vague enough to not commit to anything, even if that band is a lot higher than what I was expecting. This sounds pretty good, i like how simple it is. Thanks!
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Oct 1, 2021 16:46
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Keystoned posted:May have been addressed before but I had a recruiter reach out and in the message he gave me the salary range. If i talk to him and he asks what i think what do i say? "that is an interesting number" doesn't reveal anything, you are not accepting anything
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Oct 1, 2021 19:13
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Honestly any time they throw a number at me pre-interview and ask me if it's meeting my expectations I just say I don't have a number in mind right now and would be happy to move forward with the process to learn more about the role. It's the honest answer and it's gotten them off my back 100% of the time.
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Oct 1, 2021 23:27
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Can I get a gauge on engineering salary? I have a BS in Chemical Engineering and am looking to change jobs. I have just under 6 years of experience and make 90k/yr in Oregon right now. I am trying to pick what I would need to move to the Bay Area or Los Angeles in Ca and at least maintain my current quality of life. Anyone have any pointers for estimating salary needs for different cost of living areas? I was looking at the Nerd Wallet and Best Places cost of living calculators as a start. Anything else I should be checking out?
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Oct 4, 2021 20:38
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Hotbod Handsomeface posted:Can I get a gauge on engineering salary? If you can program computers, an entry level role will out earn that. And a senior level role will earn a few multiples of it. Unless you actively want to be in the bay area for non-comp reasons, you're total savings rate will probably be higher in Seattle, Austin, New York, or LA. No idea what chemists make, but levels.fyi is pretty accurate for programmer compensation.
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Oct 4, 2021 20:46
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Hotbod Handsomeface posted:Can I get a gauge on engineering salary? For a data point on salaries, I was hiring ChemEs last year straight out of college in the bay area (East Bay) for $100k/yr.
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Oct 4, 2021 22:18
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Hotbod Handsomeface posted:Can I get a gauge on engineering salary? Nerd wallet and all the others use the same set of federal statistical data, which might be out of date due to wild pandemic housing pricing. I've found it accurate to within 10% in my scenarios If you're making 90 in non-bend/Portland you would probably want $180 for the bay area I can't speak for socal but probably well north of $120 would be my guess
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Oct 4, 2021 22:33
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A recruiter is pulling every trick out to avoid putting an offer down first. Basically they are refusing to. What are good tips to convince them to do so? If nothing else, I could seriously drop a first number that's exorbitant. They allege I was top pick for the position, and that the sr exec of the team wants me bad. I managed to squeeze out the level's base salary floor out but they basically said they don't have a ceiling for the position (deffo not true, but I couldn't figure out how to have them spit this number out) I'm sort of lukewarm about this company, considering just asking for an exorbitant number for base and being okay walking away, lmao.
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Oct 5, 2021 00:49
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I've occasionally wondered how viable it would be to just say "look, we both know that we want the other guy to say a number first. So, say a number. I want to know it's worth my time to talk to you."
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Oct 5, 2021 01:03
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:I've occasionally wondered how viable it would be to just say "look, we both know that we want the other guy to say a number first. So, say a number. I want to know it's worth my time to talk to you." I did exactly that to two potential employers my last round of job hunting. Both times they showed cards first. Both times their opening offer was insulting. One budged when I told him to call back when we were playing the same game. The other one moved on.
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Oct 5, 2021 01:09
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Phraggah posted:A recruiter is pulling every trick out to avoid putting an offer down first. Basically they are refusing to. What are good tips to convince them to do so? Just say 10x what you think a good number is easy peasy
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Oct 5, 2021 01:10
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Isn't them giving you the floor number them giving you a number first already?
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Oct 5, 2021 01:11
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Lockback posted:Isn't them giving you the floor number them giving you a number first already? I guess that's a good point actually.
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Oct 5, 2021 01:13
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Phraggah posted:I guess that's a good point actually. If it helps, usually the "floor" is 75-80% of a target salary, a "normal" new hire ceiling is 100% and an absolute ceiling is 120%. So 125% of their floor might be a ceiling and you probably won't get laughed out of the room for going ~50% above the floor. This is all if you give a poo poo and want this job, and I have no idea they might just be throwing out random numbers. But that's probably some reasonable guidelines to make the next move, if it fits in your general perception of the market.
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Oct 5, 2021 01:34
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Lockback posted:If it helps, usually the "floor" is 75-80% of a target salary, a "normal" new hire ceiling is 100% and an absolute ceiling is 120%. This is great information. I ended up spitting out a number that wasn't the absolute max I probably should have (like 135% base) and they didn't try to bring me down, so that 150% figure was probably right on the money. Lesson learned and chalked up to practice! Now I'll have to see what their actual offer is and decide if they're worth it. I might have to come up with a polite exit after declining a number that I myself have suggested, heh Phraggah fucked around with this message at 02:35 on Oct 5, 2021 |
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Oct 5, 2021 02:31
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It took me 12 years, but I finally managed to land multiple offers at the same time, including one from a public company (first time for that as well)!! Now let the negotiations begin!
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Oct 5, 2021 17:52
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