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Baron von Eevl posted:I don't remember Clark or Asimov being that weird about sex. Asimov would talk about it occasionally and it would be weird, but not like in a concerning or obvious hangups kind of way, or even in the "jesus christ Stephen King, you didn't need to include all this" kinda way. Dan Simmons goes a little overboard with the sexual content. One of my only complaints about his writing.
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Oct 3, 2021 12:38
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Cognac McCarthy posted:So I just finished God Emperor. Are Heretics and Chapterhouse any good, or are they at least interesting? I'm weighing continuing the series vs. reading something else entirely. God Emperor ends much more conclusively than any book in the series so it seems like Herbert himself was sorta done at that point I personally liked Heretics and Chapterhouse. But God Emperor was my least favorite of the six.......
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Oct 3, 2021 12:41
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RestingB1tchFace posted:Dan Simmons goes a little overboard with the sexual content. One of my only complaints about his writing. Dan Simmons posted:The Time Traveler shook his head. "You've understood nothing I've said. Nothing. Athens failed in Syracuse - and doomed their democracy - not because they fought in the wrong place and at the wrong time, but because they weren't ruthless enough. They had grown soft since their slaughter of every combat-age man and boy on the island of Melos, the enslavement of every woman and girl there. Depends on how you define "sexual", I guess.
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Oct 3, 2021 12:52
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I’ve read a lot of Dan Simmons and I wouldn’t characterize him as anything problematic or weird. The most explicit scene I can think of was in one of his horror novels, but it turns out the character was seduced by a ghost or something and didn’t act on his feelings. On the other hand, I tried reading The Reality Dysfunction by Peter F Hamilton and ugh. I didn’t need detailed descriptions of zero-g gently caress chambers. That dude really went out of his way to shove incredibly horny things in among the technobabble. I can’t remember how far I got into it before I wondered if it was worth it (it’s the first of three books), and yeah, after reading the summaries it somehow involves the ghost of Al Capone being resurrected by some alien bullshit. Nope.
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Oct 3, 2021 14:48
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david_a posted:I’ve read a lot of Dan Simmons and I wouldn’t characterize him as anything problematic or weird. The most explicit scene I can think of was in one of his horror novels, but it turns out the character was seduced by a ghost or something and didn’t act on his feelings. I am probably overreacting. He's still one of my favorite authors. Carrion Comfort had some overlong passages.....same with Illium. I don't really recall any of the Hyperion novels going too strong. Same for Summer of Night, Drood, The Terror.
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Oct 3, 2021 15:24
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Ok, maybe my quote was too obscure, but back around 2006, Simmons wrote that time travel vignette on his blog, warning how Western Civilization wasn't genocidal enough in its war against Islam.
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Oct 3, 2021 15:26
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Arglebargle III posted:Some high profile Dune cosplay in the news today. Can't believe I whiffed on Imperial Planetologist Liet Grimes
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Oct 3, 2021 18:28
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Hannibal Rex posted:Ok, maybe my quote was too obscure, but back around 2006, Simmons wrote that time travel vignette on his blog, warning how Western Civilization wasn't genocidal enough in its war against Islam. Oh, well, yeah I haven’t read a book of his since Drood since I heard he went off the rails politically.
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Oct 3, 2021 19:29
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Arglebargle III posted:Imperial Planetologist Liet Grimes
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Oct 3, 2021 20:34
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9/11 destroyed dan simmons brain. i liked his first trojan war book good enough, but the second was just filled with unnecessary and weird sex scenes while constantly depicting Islam as 100% genocidal.
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Oct 3, 2021 21:12
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And then there's Flashback, which is simply batshit insane through and through.
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Oct 3, 2021 21:23
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All the Dune stuff should have ended neatly with Leto 2 dying and the culmination of his millennia long plan. Everything past that feels extraneous.
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Oct 3, 2021 21:47
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AlternateAccount posted:All the Dune stuff should have ended neatly with Leto 2 dying and the culmination of his millennia long plan. Guess that's all personal preference. I liked both Heretics and Chapterhouse and thought both were a step up from God Emperor....which I think is the weakest of the six.
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Oct 3, 2021 22:04
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RestingB1tchFace posted:Guess that's all personal preference. I liked both Heretics and Chapterhouse and thought both were a step up from God Emperor....which I think is the weakest of the six. Just so you know that is an extremely controversial opinion and God Emperor is widely regarded as the second best book in the whole series by a ton of Dune fans (myself included). Heretics and Chapterhouse have their strong points but they are both terminally horny in a way the rest of the series isnt and Chapterhouse contains the absolute nadir of the series with the Bene Gesserit sanctioning the rape of a minor in order to awaken his memories of a previous life.
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Oct 3, 2021 22:16
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AnEdgelord posted:Just so you know that is an extremely controversial opinion and God Emperor is widely regarded as the second best book in the whole series by a ton of Dune fans (myself included). Heretics and Chapterhouse have their strong points but they are both terminally horny in a way the rest of the series isnt and Chapterhouse contains the absolute nadir of the series with the Bene Gesserit sanctioning the rape of a minor in order to awaken his memories of a previous life. I know it is. Just personal preferences. I found the long stretches of inner monologue to be draining and not all that interesting.
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Oct 3, 2021 22:21
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oscarthewilde posted:9/11 destroyed dan simmons brain. i liked his first trojan war book good enough, but the second was just filled with unnecessary and weird sex scenes while constantly depicting Islam as 100% genocidal. I think the first one is where a middle-aged college professor gets magically disguised as Paris and goes to gently caress Helen. She ofc sees through the deception, on account of
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Oct 3, 2021 22:22
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God Emperor is probably the worse book on a plot and character level, since it's pretty much the Leto II show and he's not compelling as a character, but it's satisfying to see the already bizarre set up of Children taken to the furthest, horrifying extent. Heretics is probably the better written book, but it's telling a much less interesting story.
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Oct 3, 2021 22:32
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I personally would rank the first four books in release order. Messiah is fine, it's not nearly as good as the original. Children is pretty bad, and while I appreciate how weird God Emperor is I didn't actually like it at all.
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Oct 3, 2021 23:01
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It's been over a week since I watched this already but I didn't see any mention of the soundscape/mixing skimming the thread. I felt the soundscape of the film was extremely claustrophobic/anxiety-inducing in a good way. Overall the film constantly felt like things would go South by any moment, but maybe that's because I've seen the Lynch film. I know it was mentioned and it's probably how the original novel doesn't aim for "realism" but the Atreides army running towards their ships with all of them in a vulnerable position in surprise still feels a little dumb. As mentioned earlier, the Atreides home world having seas to obscure their ships was a nice touch. Dessel fucked around with this message at 23:33 on Oct 3, 2021 |
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Oct 3, 2021 23:25
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Schwarzwald posted:God Emperor is probably the worse book on a plot and character level, since it's pretty much the Leto II show and he's not compelling as a character, but it's satisfying to see the already bizarre set up of Children taken to the furthest, horrifying extent. God Emperor was originally written just from Letos perspective - the epigraphs from his journal and the framing device of the archaeologists are a remnant of that - and I really wish we'd got that book. Because I love the idea of it being really self referential, and Leto is openly trying to guide/manipulate you into seeing his point of view.
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Oct 3, 2021 23:35
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Schwarzwald posted:God Emperor is probably the worse book on a plot and character level, since it's pretty much the Leto II show and he's not compelling as a character, but it's satisfying to see the already bizarre set up of Children taken to the furthest, horrifying extent. God Emperor of Dune is more of a philosophical novel than the others. It's not goundbreaking or coherent philosophy, though; it's more like a book of religious sayings but written from the inner psychological perspective of the prophet. e: Dessel posted:I know it was mentioned and it's probably how the original novel doesn't aim for "realism" but the Atreides army running towards their ships with all of them in a vulnerable position in surprise still feels a little dumb. As mentioned earlier, the Atreides home world having seas to obscure their ships was a nice touch. It's a pretty good way of demonstrating that the Harkonnen attack simply comes too fast for Leto to prepare. Given time, they'd have learned to hide their ships in the sand, but if they tried right off the bat they'd end up eaten by sandworms. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Oct 4, 2021 |
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Oct 3, 2021 23:58
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odrade is a cool character, and it's interesting to see how the BG deal with a universe absolutely beyond their control. but yeah definitely feel like extended epilogues
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Oct 4, 2021 00:13
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Strom Cuzewon posted:God Emperor was originally written just from Letos perspective - the epigraphs from his journal and the framing device of the archaeologists are a remnant of that - and I really wish we'd got that book. Because I love the idea of it being really self referential, and Leto is openly trying to guide/manipulate you into seeing his point of view. It's funny, because Siona is essential for the book to have any plot or narrative structure at all — but just as in the later Heretic, the plot and narrative are completely uninteresting.
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Oct 4, 2021 02:11
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I just realized that this whole thread might not know about Calvin and Muad'Dib. This is haram and must be remedied. It also seems to have returned from a long hiatus, so some new ones for people who did know about it:   
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Oct 4, 2021 03:13
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on that note, has anyone got the link to that comic that popped up where Paul is asking Liet about nappy rash from stillsuit use i need to send it to certain people urgently
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Oct 4, 2021 03:31
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Arglebargle III posted:Can't believe I whiffed on Imperial Planetologist Liet Grimes elon's pushing the autopilot disengage disengage disengage button
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Oct 4, 2021 04:40
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I'm reading God Emperor of Dune and man oh man did Herbert got some things to say. Leto II sounds like a redditor.
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Oct 4, 2021 21:19
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Godspeed you dune emperor is probably my favorite of the series. It's where the series fully diverges from the classic hero plot arc set out in book 1. But I think it helps having read the series as a teen (or manchild) instead of now. I refuse to reread the books but I will consume a limitless amount of visual dune spinoff media, fanart or concept art leaks from failed adaptations.
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Oct 4, 2021 21:59
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Hannibal Rex posted:Depends on how you define "sexual", I guess. What a load of ahistorical horseshit. The siege of Syracuse is the definition of fought in the wrong place at the wrong time.
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Oct 5, 2021 06:40
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Vincent posted:I'm reading God Emperor of Dune and man oh man did Herbert got some things to say. Leto II sounds like a redditor. On one hand, you're not supposed to like or believe the evil worm nerd. On the other hand, Frankie never really was one for subtly expressing his opinions in his fiction. Wheels within wheels.
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Oct 5, 2021 15:39
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The most interesting stuff Leto says in God Emperor is when he talks about machines and how they engendered "machine thinking" and how humans think in a way that is fundamentally different from computers. It was a shockingly relevant discussion in a sea of reddit nonsense, made more interesting because I had just seen Adam Curtis make the same point in his latest documentary.
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Oct 5, 2021 15:50
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https://twitter.com/LasVegasLocally/status/1444154199978119173
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Oct 5, 2021 16:39
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Man, Lynch should have waited a few more years with Twin Peaks season 3.
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Oct 5, 2021 18:36
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AnEdgelord posted:The most interesting stuff Leto says in God Emperor is when he talks about machines and how they engendered "machine thinking" and how humans think in a way that is fundamentally different from computers. It was a shockingly relevant discussion in a sea of reddit nonsense, made more interesting because I had just seen Adam Curtis make the same point in his latest documentary. I took that bit to be, likely unintentionally, to be largely about capitalism. Although if you want to trace the "machine mindset" to it's roots, it would be Aristotle's (eventually after like 2000 years) scientifically productive but ultimately inaccurate and repulsive assumption that animals are automata. A conclusion which really gives you a feel for why despite being both patriarchal slave holding societies, many ancient Jews could not stand their Greek contemporaries. In Jewish law, if food was short you had to feed, in order, animals, then slaves, then other dependents, then family, then yourself. And one of the dumbest interpretations in Christian history; going with this as doctrine, in contradiction to the entirely settled word of God in Judaism, because some pigs drowned after Christ exorcized them and Aristotle made people back then feel all smart.
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Oct 5, 2021 19:29
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Hodgepodge posted:In Jewish law, if food was short you had to feed, in order, animals, then slaves, then other dependents, then family, then yourself. I've heard of the feeding of animals before oneself, but where's the rest of that pecking order detailed?
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Oct 5, 2021 20:59
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Crespolini posted:I've heard of the feeding of animals before oneself, but where's the rest of that pecking order detailed? oh God now I have to find it and correct anything I got wrong. i think it may have been the Jewish Online Encylopedia, which is an out of date (1901) but searchable uploaded encyclopedia of information about Jewish history, including a ton of stuff about the developmental history of religious concepts in Judaism and related religions (Christianity, Islam, Gnostism). i really wish it were a post-dead sea scroll edition though
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Oct 5, 2021 21:24
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Okay, found a source for slaves/servants: https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/305549/jewish/Torah-Slavery-and-the-Jews.htm Let me just say how impressed I am by the fact that this was the Jewish standard in an intersubjective world (ie, as it was known to the collective culture of the peoples of the region) where "Achilles throwing a temper tantrum over not getting to rape a slave girl was bad primarily because it had bad results and was undignified" was the general standard in these things: quote:Torah is not just about liberty, Torah liberates in a radical way. Yet here you have these laws about buying and selling slaves. What's going on? I included the last line just to indicate that there is a lot of critical reading left in the article beyond "oh whew just indentured servitude." And if there's one thing the Bible is clear about, it's that these sorts of standards were not always followed, of course, and we're all aware that the standards were not always good and that God evidently sanctioned some appalling acts at certain points (I'm especially thinking about rape here). But for that to be the standard at a time when taking slaves was considered heroic is still incredibly impressive, at least to me. e: just recalled offhand encountering, probably in the course of reading about rad angels and demons and then getting wikiholed, mention of advice not to take pretty young slave/servant girls into household if you had a son because that would be setting up circumstances that are obviously morally irresponsible. It was phrased assuming you had a son and in terms of his moral character in particular, though. But it was a moral character in which not raping slave girls was considered an important standard that was just as important to God as any other rule. I guess in the context of thousands of years ago, distinctions between patriarchal cultures can matter. yeah another edit: also just recalling reading the Book of Job in order to check my basis for an argument and being able to relate to him saying that he takes great care not to look at young girls lustfully. Obviously a very different context. Would really have appreciated him and his pals stating their arguments concisely instead of hiding them in subtle variations in how they talk about how great God is. But it's nice to be able to find an ethical connection to a character written for an audience that is so dramatically different from me. And that's very close to the best spirit of Judaism, and what inspired so many religions that I can't even name them all, and perhaps what it has in common with others that the world values: finding a common humanity in our shared ability to make genuine ethical commitments. the muhammad of edits, the seal of the edits: thinking about those last Herbert books and i feel compelled to reassure the thread that i am not going to become a judaism fanboy. i liked those parts of the last book or two but it was also a bit weird. i just appreciate coming to a better understanding of religious belief, and will just as gladly gush about cool aspects of buddhism or whatever i most recently read something cool about. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Oct 5, 2021 |
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Oct 5, 2021 22:17
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AnEdgelord posted:The most interesting stuff Leto says in God Emperor is when he talks about machines and how they engendered "machine thinking" and how humans think in a way that is fundamentally different from computers. It was a shockingly relevant discussion in a sea of reddit nonsense, made more interesting because I had just seen Adam Curtis make the same point in his latest documentary. To me, the most blatant example of "machine thinking" would be McNamara's approach to warfare in Vietnam. Things that aren't (easily) quantifiable are discarded as irrelevant.
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Oct 6, 2021 05:42
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God Emperor Of Dune: In this one, Idaho sucks. I may be misremembering something from Children, but why would Leto II care so much about Duncan? It's not like he had a relationship with him like Paul did. Stilgar being constantly ghola'd would make more sense for him.
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Oct 6, 2021 23:46
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Vincent posted:God Emperor Of Dune: In this one, Idaho sucks. Leto inherited Paul's consciousness so I think it stands to reason that he'd also be fond of him.
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Oct 6, 2021 23:52
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