|
Your Brain on Hugs posted:I think no matter what they do there's going to be a massive amount of work in updating the old factions and maps to fit it, so I think Immortal Empires will take at least a year to come out after the release. I'd wait even longer if it meant a full wraparound world map Mortal Empires came out within a month of Warhammer 2, and while I doubt it'll be that fast this time, a year seems extremely pessimistic to me. I'd be shocked if it's over six months, and my guess would be under three.
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2021 06:23
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 28, 2024 18:57 |
|
|
Twigand Berries posted:a lot of these problems being discussed can easily be solved with tools already in game which is agent actions and scouting but effort i guess Elaborate on this? I'm not sure what you're specifically referring to.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2021 07:13
|
|
|
The map in that video is "yes, we do have a gigantic 1000 foot wall, but ignore that the map is this 50 foot straight wall that is identical to all the other 50 foot straight walls in the world". Hoping that this isn't what they're calling a rework.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2021 08:06
|
|
|
I anticipate WH3 coming out sometime after 2025 and being a release build of Rome 2 with all factions except Pontus disabled.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2021 09:06
|
|
|
So if you'd start a ME campaign with Kraken bro, where would you go? Secure the starting province, knock over Teclis and then move up to the donut? Or abandon the starting province?
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2021 10:04
|
|
|
Twigand Berries posted:a lot of these problems being discussed can easily be solved with tools already in game which is agent actions and scouting but effort i guess I agree that these make moving up to Legendary/VH campaign difficult much more doable but I thought we were discussing the core design of siege battles. Which agent makes the AI leave the walls during a siege with their monsters and cavalry to attack your ranged/artillery killing them for free? I like sieges for the most part but pretending they don't have major fundamental issues is crazy. Hell I'm pretty sure the AI is still broken for open field ambush fights and can be gamed to stand and die under ranged/artillery fire. genericnick posted:So if you'd start a ME campaign with Kraken bro, where would you go? Secure the starting province, knock over Teclis and then move up to the donut? Or abandon the starting province? That's a viable tactic, just know that if you abandon the Lustriabowl that you're on a timer until somebody declares and tries to take your stuff unless you get really lucky with diplomacy, kiss your neighbor's rear end and they act as a big buffer for you, preventing antagonistic factions from meeting you for awhile so they can get in other wars and not want to dec on you. When money is good you can use a defensive stack to hold your starting provinces for as long as possible or abandon them entirely once you've got a new home province on the donut.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2021 13:11
|
|
|
ZeusJupitar posted:I anticipate WH3 coming out sometime after 2025 and being a release build of Rome 2 with all factions except Pontus disabled. We've had this discussion before in the thread, but I would unironically love if CA added Pontus to WH3. No magical touch-ups or anything either, just lift the Rome 2 roster and dump them as a minor faction in the middle of the Dark Lands.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2021 13:17
|
|
|
The issue of the AI sometimes avoiding battles and beelining for easy targets is basically a question of whether you want the AI to play well, or whether you want it to feed you interesting battles. It will do things like decapitate a poorly defended capital instead of fighting your army of doom and that's not really a flaw, that's the smart thing to do. There's a balance to be struck there I think, and I would tend towards wanting the AI to play to win, because it can be very hard to design AI that plays badly but is more fun in some sense. Doing this would also reduce the challenge, which for experienced players already relies on having the AI cheat. I think instead the goal ought to be to design the game so that playing it well is fun, and results in interesting battles. The current game is imperfect but not terrible at that. All that said there can always be some obnoxious behaviors the AI "ought" to do from a mechanical perspective but that would be too annoying to deal with, so you just have it not do them. I don't think that's a big problem in TWW though. I wouldn't want to kill the AI's ability to try and win wars by making it take disadvantageous field battles that it doesn't need to take. In my experience it doesn't avoid battles it could reasonably win at all. The latest TW game I played before TWW2 was the original Rome, and the AI there didn't avoid disadvantageous battles at all. It would instead just constantly feed you whatever stacks it could throw together. It was not very fun. Elukka fucked around with this message at 14:29 on Oct 2, 2021 |
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2021 14:26
|
|
|
orangelex44 posted:We've had this discussion before in the thread, but I would unironically love if CA added Pontus to WH3. No magical touch-ups or anything either, just lift the Rome 2 roster and dump them as a minor faction in the middle of the Dark Lands. A "All kinds of poo poo are coming through chaos gates" would be hilarious although an impractical amount of work. I'd love to play Napoleon accidentally transported from marching on Russia to marching on the Chaos wastes of Kislev
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2021 14:47
|
|
|
Sidebar: Never was a fan of the way the underway worked in practice, it just let a handful of factions completely ignore terrain design. It should really be a more fixed fixed road system with some kind of overlay system on the map. It’s especially bad trying to go into the badlands or mountains with factions that can’t use it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2021 15:02
|
|
|
Mazz posted:Sidebar: Never was a fan of the way the underway worked in practice, it just let a handful of factions completely ignore terrain design. It should really be a more fixed fixed road system with some kind of overlay system on the map. It’s especially bad trying to go into the badlands or mountains with factions that can’t use it. Yeah the underway being designed as it is is one of the shittiest missteps of the campaign map design and contributes immensely to some factions being enormously annoying to deal with.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2021 15:20
|
|
|
Elukka posted:The issue of the AI sometimes avoiding battles and beelining for easy targets is basically a question of whether you want the AI to play well, or whether you want it to feed you interesting battles. It will do things like decapitate a poorly defended capital instead of fighting your army of doom and that's not really a flaw, that's the smart thing to do. The number of offensive siege battles you fight also shows up a lot more because while the AI is smart to run from superior armies, it gets perfect vision over your forces while you don't over it, and it can calculate AR strengths without having to actually engage a fight. If I see a stack roll up out of the fog of war, on the first turn I see a few units at most, and guess at the rest. Is it a swarm of marauders, or skinwolves and mammoths? No idea, but the AI does (and can also seemingly see which settlements are undefended from well beyond the fog). And so because of that, it regularly flees well from armies that are close matches (though that seems better recently) and instead retreats to settlements that very often have walls, which increases the amount of siege fights. It's not the cheats that bother me, because I think those are necessary for both a challenge and fun (I like the mod that gives LLs regular bonus experience so they stay roughly even with your LLs, so you don't run into a level 13 Malekith with a level 40 Tyrion-and-heroes-coterie) but the way both those cheats and the vision cheats lead to more sieges as an emergent property. As a tangent, I think the change from prior TWs that lets you replenish on your own is generally a good one in that it lets you use higher tier units without worrying about retraining and resupply. The problem is that on-demand replenishment means that the concept of a pyrrhic defeat is basically a huge loss for anyone except maybe the undead factions, which combined with supply lines, encourages doomstacking which exacerbates both problems above. Again, a good change leading to poorer outcomes. (Making this worse is the way WH2 factions can get immediate post-battle replenishment instead of having to at least slow down for a turn or two, but without that, you'd be even more pressed towards ranged-heavy armies than you already are so...) 3K did a lot to encourage field battles by making the AI more prepared to attack you and by making smaller armies actually have a role, as well as just removing walls from minor settlements (and in return increasing their garrisons, giving them more varied maps, and making a loss of them less punishing). They also added army supply to limit just how far an army could actually range so you could theoretically leave your inner provinces free of defensive buildings because enemy armies simply couldn't reach those territories. In practice it didn't work because it was too easy to increase to the point of meaninglessness, but it was a good idea. The map is also wildly different in terms of vision and zone control. A lot of these ideas are part of a fundamental design though, so I don't know how you would put them into WH3, because then you would also have to make them generally compatible with WH1 and WH2. I remember when the ranged targeting rework they did to make bows more effective at shooting into melee also broke the gunpowder weapon targeting completely (still a mistake imo) or how the ME map still plays a bit oddly in WH2 because of climates. It works, but it still is weird. Also I'm not saying 3k is better. I think it does some things better in some ways, but honestly I find WH just more fun despite its flaws. Mostly, I want them to take a lot of the design cues they took from 3K and eventually totally relaunch Warhammer, but that is ages off. Game is still excellent and I'm hopeful about what they've shown. And empire forts show they can make fun siege maps! They just need more variety and fewer of them. How that happens, I'm not sure. E: 100% agreed on the underway. It makes a lot of the issues about map design I mention above a lot worse. A railway/teleport system would be a good change since an entire new underground HoMM layer seems too much, but that would cool too. Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 15:42 on Oct 2, 2021 |
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2021 15:40
|
|
|
couldn't the existing teleport system be used to modify the underway? just have a lot more nodes and limit which nodes connect? not sure what is possible with mods.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2021 15:56
|
|
|
punishedkissinger posted:couldn't the existing teleport system be used to modify the underway? just have a lot more nodes and limit which nodes connect? not sure what is possible with mods. I have no modding experience and want to say "probably" but also think that because I haven't seen a single mod touch the teleportation system or old underway system at all that it's probably harder than it looks. The only one I've seen do anything with the underway at all is the "Empire forts can't be bypassed" mod. And if you change the underway to a linked system of nodes (which isnt like either existing teleport system) what do you do with Beastpaths or the inexplicable shadowpath whatsit that Alith Anar get? They are less significant but still. E: also that sounds like it would be hell for the AI to get right. I can't say I've ever seen AI elves or oxyotl teleport; can they even use it? I would love for it to be an eventual rework akin to the faction reworks we got with DLC but I'm not sure it will be, sadly. Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Oct 2, 2021 |
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2021 16:35
|
|
|
Re: the cheating AI: If armies couldnt just walk around whereever without worry about receiving suppliers (cough ammo refills cough) then we wouldnt have to deal with but the fact that the AI can just waltz around anywhere without a care in the world tied in with their perfect vision means that they can and will walk across the whole loving map to attack your one and only unwalled town because they know you dont have an army nearby. Its in their power to make an AI that is receiving cheats but also plays well without being abusive or annoying as gently caress; we're not there right now but 3K does a lot better about it so I hope they take some ideas from how they have the campaign AI programmed.genericnick posted:So if you'd start a ME campaign with Kraken bro, where would you go? Secure the starting province, knock over Teclis and then move up to the donut? Or abandon the starting province? If you do stick with ME you might be helped because I think they added a dilemma to confederate Karond Kar, so you could just loot and pillage around until you get that event then migrate north. Sinteres posted:Mortal Empires came out within a month of Warhammer 2, and while I doubt it'll be that fast this time, a year seems extremely pessimistic to me. I'd be shocked if it's over six months, and my guess would be under three. AAAAA! Real Muenster fucked around with this message at 19:26 on Oct 2, 2021 |
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2021 17:14
|
|
|
AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:Also he has to deal with Queek Wrong mouse.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2021 17:25
|
|
|
Ravenfood posted:At least for me, part of the frustration is the interaction of the AI cheats and the "optimal" aspects of play. The AI money cheats are necessary because it creates badly optimized provinces, so you need bonus money and growth to keep the armies it can field remotely interesting to fight against (except for the various -tides that can form that just roll over you). But at the same time, the AI will often prefer to field lots of poo poo armies instead of a few good armies (which is probably a good move, as it is exactly what I would do if I didn't have supply lines penalties and my opponent did) but THAT means that the AI is free to run around the sole army I can generally afford to field, which further means I need walls on the strategic level to afford some kind of time to maybe reinforce my settlements, or...repeatedly fight defensive siege battles. The combination of both being "smart" and getting cheats leads to the repetition of siege battles, both offensively and defensively. I learned about the AI seeing everything in my many thorgrim games haha now i usually leave a settlement empty to bait the army into attacking otherwise they'll wait until you leave then attack.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2021 18:14
|
|
|
Ra Ra Rasputin posted:Wrong mouse.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2021 19:25
|
|
|
TW is best when there's a plausible veneer of symmetry, but the campaign is actually build around a very asymmetric model that recognises the AI can't compete with a player on a level playing field. The most interesting games (Alexander, Peninsula War, TW2) have all embraced the idea that the player's win condition is not the same as the AI's. In other words, the AI 'cheating' should just be accepted as normal and built into the narrative of the game rather than being treated as a flaw to be fixed one day.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2021 19:31
|
|
|
Alchenar posted:TW is best when there's a plausible veneer of symmetry, but the campaign is actually build around a very asymmetric model that recognises the AI can't compete with a player on a level playing field. The most interesting games (Alexander, Peninsula War, TW2) have all embraced the idea that the player's win condition is not the same as the AI's. In EU4 I dont care if the AI gets extra money and manpower then plays to conquer the whole world - thats what you want. What I do care about is that it will completely abandon any pretense of defending its core territory or its allies to sail from Brasil to northern europe then get access through five countries to march into central asia to siege the fort farthest from any of my armies. AAAAA! Real Muenster fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Oct 2, 2021 |
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2021 19:51
|
|
|
Alchenar posted:TW is best when there's a plausible veneer of symmetry, but the campaign is actually build around a very asymmetric model that recognises the AI can't compete with a player on a level playing field. The most interesting games (Alexander, Peninsula War, TW2) have all embraced the idea that the player's win condition is not the same as the AI's. For instance, I would prefer that it used its extra money to make armies that are more fun to fight, rather than making more armies. Or both. E: vvvv yeah, the skullsmashers or whatever deciding to just charge Reikland's fort over and over are good. Those are fun defensive sieges! (Usually, eventually they get old, but so does everything eventually) Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Oct 2, 2021 |
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2021 19:52
|
|
|
The best sieges are the ones as Empire when Greenskins go after Fort Bergbres and you have to fight as hard as possible to keep it. Some of my favourite battles.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2021 19:59
|
|
|
I think the AI should do themed armies, or pick threats from a rotating pool. Sometimes the enemy LL at head of doomstack marches for your capital, sometimes he sends themed suboptimal or even crappy armies to test your borders. Make the bad armies override things like late game Dwarves Fielding perfect t4-5 armies. And I know this happens occasionally naturally, I've seen many a desperation 19 dreadspears stack from the Delves, but I think there's room to have the AI throw a softball or an off all occasionally. You could also override the threat checking it does to avoid suicidal moves. Combine with the roaming province-bound defense army idea and every so often you see a 20 stack or skavenslaves and clanrats rushing one of your minors(instead of 4-5 of them.) Just a nice refreshing stomp during a tense midgame. Then the empire rolls up with a themed mid range cavalry army or the wood elves with a tree/animals stack, etc. Player garrisons should get passive exp/chevron gain too. Tied to buildings, tech or time spent alive and unkilled.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2021 20:16
|
|
|
Kanos posted:Elaborate on this? I'm not sure what you're specifically referring to. Doomykins posted:I agree that these make moving up to Legendary/VH campaign difficult much more doable but I thought we were discussing the core design of siege battles. Which agent makes the AI leave the walls during a siege with their monsters and cavalry to attack your ranged/artillery killing them for free? More referring to using them as scouts to keep your minors protected in terms of having unwalled settlements on the campaign layer and not at all referring to the absolute dogshit siege battles lol sorry
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2021 02:55
|
|
|
The chokepoint fights are still pretty intense when the AI has a melee advantage because if your line crumbles for even a second you're basically hosed.
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2021 03:02
|
|
|
Twigand Berries posted:More referring to using them as scouts to keep your minors protected in terms of having unwalled settlements on the campaign layer and not at all referring to the absolute dogshit siege battles lol sorry This kind of has a limit, since many factions still have to wait until tier 3+ to even get their very first agents online, and it's extremely possible to have a lot of territory to cover before you have more than a couple agents to work with, especially if you're one of the unfortunate factions that starts in territory with mammoth-sized provinces, like Norsca. Province size is also a factor in other ways, too - supply lines means you can't really afford to maintain multiple defensive stacks, so if an enemy war decs you and shows up on your eastern front and the nearest army is two turns out in march stance, it doesn't really matter if you have perfect intel. Army block is hardly a solution, either, because it's a low-chance dice roll unless your heroes are incredibly leveled compared to the enemy target, and even then it can fail. Plus, the whole issue of it not really being that fun to beeline up the tech tree to get cool wizards and heroes and then spending all of their time sitting around providing campaign LOS.
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2021 04:41
|
|
|
genericnick posted:So if you'd start a ME campaign with Kraken bro, where would you go? Secure the starting province, knock over Teclis and then move up to the donut? Or abandon the starting province? Go straight to Ulthuan and sack just enough stuff to get a level 3 black ark and barracks so you can get bolt throwers. Disband kraken bro after you sack that first settlement. Tyrion is an idiot and you can sit off the coast of Lothern in your ark until he vacates it and then take Lothern from him. Now you've got the walls and hopefully a whole bunch of handbow corsairs too so you can repluse his attempts to take it back. Build your ark and recruit kraken bro again to continue your Ulthuan conquest. I use supreme sorceresses (fire or dark) as generals to do the land invasions and recruit more arks to grab the ports. You can have the whole island buttoned up by turn 75 if things go reasonably well. Build the slave building everywhere and take slaves with sacking every time you fight. After you own ulthuan you can just bully the rest of the world's coasts but I would only conquer inland in favorable climates.
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2021 05:57
|
|
|
nvidiagouge posted:Go straight to Ulthuan and sack just enough stuff to get a level 3 black ark and barracks so you can get bolt throwers. Disband kraken bro after you sack that first settlement. Tyrion is an idiot and you can sit off the coast of Lothern in your ark until he vacates it and then take Lothern from him. Now you've got the walls and hopefully a whole bunch of handbow corsairs too so you can repluse his attempts to take it back. Build your ark and recruit kraken bro again to continue your Ulthuan conquest. I use supreme sorceresses (fire or dark) as generals to do the land invasions and recruit more arks to grab the ports. You can have the whole island buttoned up by turn 75 if things go reasonably well. Build the slave building everywhere and take slaves with sacking every time you fight. After you own ulthuan you can just bully the rest of the world's coasts but I would only conquer inland in favorable climates. I’m currently doing a kraken campaign where I didn’t migrate and i think I’m going to start over and give this a shot. Lustria just feels so bad to traverse without access to the underway. Sick of taking attrition damage constantly marching around giant provinces.
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2021 06:31
|
|
|
There shouldn't be unwalled settlements. That doesn't make any sense for such an apocalyptic and genocidal setting.
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2021 09:22
|
|
|
Mannfred, you failson.
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2021 13:17
|
|
|
What's funny is that a side effect to the growth nerf was increasing the number sieges I wound up having to fight due to needing to protect settlements I normally would have left unwalled. My wishlist for the siege rework: Only capitols have walls and garrisons, wall and tower strength tied to settlement tier.
Replace the wall/garrison building chain with other options (increase chevrons for defenders, ammo for missile units, etc) Buildable choke points for defenders, which seems likely if that Brass Citadel video is any indication. 99pct of germs fucked around with this message at 13:34 on Oct 3, 2021 |
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2021 13:32
|
|
|
I just had a battle where all of my units except Gor Rok routed. He ended up killing about 800 chaos marauders or whatever on his own and winning the battle. I guess it makes sense because he's unbreakable, has a trait for zero fatigue, has regeneration, and loads of armour. He just looks like a normal lizard guy as well. Ridiculous. Chas McGill fucked around with this message at 14:31 on Oct 3, 2021 |
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2021 14:25
|
|
|
Gor Rok is insane in sieges too. I've sent him up on to enemy walls by himself, turned on triple fast forward, and browsed the forums as he casually killed 900+ enemy units and singlehandedly caused the army losses penalty. He got down to about 60 percent health after hitting regen cap
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2021 16:13
|
|
|
Chas McGill posted:I just had a battle where all of my units except Gor Rok routed. He ended up killing about 800 chaos marauders or whatever on his own and winning the battle. I guess it makes sense because he's unbreakable, has a trait for zero fatigue, has regeneration, and loads of armour. Warrior sending angry petitions to the chaos gods about an invincible "Gror Grock"
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2021 16:17
|
|
|
Lawdog69 posted:I’m currently doing a kraken campaign where I didn’t migrate and i think I’m going to start over and give this a shot. Lustria just feels so bad to traverse without access to the underway. Sick of taking attrition damage constantly marching around giant provinces. Lustria is misery because there are several factions down there that can snowball and be a pain in the rear end right on your doorstep if you don't handle them. Being at war with most of Ulthuan isn't that bad because their provinces are much wealthier, Lothern's in particular.
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2021 16:31
|
|
|
Chas McGill posted:I just had a battle where all of my units except Gor Rok routed. He ended up killing about 800 chaos marauders or whatever on his own and winning the battle. I guess it makes sense because he's unbreakable, has a trait for zero fatigue, has regeneration, and loads of armour. Gor Rok loving owns
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2021 16:35
|
|
|
Having been on the other side of that Go-Rok battle, I bet the AI was feeling pretty frustrated.
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2021 17:21
|
|
|
Alas I think my wonderful empire thunderbowl game is cooked, keeps crashing even after reloads, boo. A real shame as I was having quite a bit of fun with it. Might try a restart and see if it does it again.
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2021 17:29
|
|
|
I've been having a lot of fun using the console command mod to airdrop Repanse into the middle of the Lustriabowl on turn 1, fun to join the rumble
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2021 17:31
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 28, 2024 18:57 |
|
|
OwlFancier posted:Alas I think my wonderful empire thunderbowl game is cooked, keeps crashing even after reloads, boo. A real shame as I was having quite a bit of fun with it. Might try a restart and see if it does it again. How many mods you running?
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2021 17:32
|
|
