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Harley's way more fun and interesting than Livewire or Mercy. An electricity villain? Ground-breaking. A bad guy's bodyguard? Mind-blowing.
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Oct 30, 2021 16:07
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Livewire's fun, but yeah, Mercy's kind of barely a character. Like she's not bad or anything and does her role in the story and stuff well, but yeah. Livewire I think has potential. Especially since I imagine if you wanted to reinvent her for a modern audience she'd be less a radio shock-jock (although then you lose out on the punny irony of her becoming a literal shock jock) and more like some sort of twitter/tik-tok/youtube troll. EDIT: Also I think it helps that Harley is a victim so we can excuse her bad behavior more and sympathize with her more. Livewire's an rear end in a top hat who got worse. Mercy has a bit of a tragic backstory, but from what I recall she's just a street urchin who got taken in by Luthor. She's a victim too, but she's less of a sympathetic villain for what audiences tend to go for, since you know victim blaming is pretty big. Plus Mercy's a straight (wo)man while Harley and even Livewire are both fun and vivacious. At least in the shows. Again, my knowledge is mostly the DCAU so I have no idea how, if at all, the comics have handled Livewire or Mercy. RoboChrist 9000 fucked around with this message at 16:21 on Oct 30, 2021 |
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Oct 30, 2021 16:19
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I know that the comics felt the need to make Harley extra-dark because they;re very self-conscious and uncomfortable with being associated with "kid stuff" like cartoons. There was something about her having a split personality formed from trauma? Has any of that been stuck into the movies? I think the Arkham games had a bit implying that she wasn't a real doctor and that she slept her way through med school. Marvel comics felt the need to give Firestar a dark backstory of accidentally killing her family and being gaslit by the Hellfire club, I wouldn't be surprised if they made Livewire into a serial killer or something. Horribly traumatizing and crippling Batgirl seems like another move of really trying to prove that comics are so much more mature and serious than TV.
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Oct 30, 2021 16:24
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:Livewire I think has potential. 
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Oct 30, 2021 16:24
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SlothfulCobra posted:I know that the comics felt the need to make Harley extra-dark because they;re very self-conscious and uncomfortable with being associated with "kid stuff" like cartoons. There was something about her having a split personality formed from trauma? Has any of that been stuck into the movies? I think the Arkham games had a bit implying that she wasn't a real doctor and that she slept her way through med school. Emma Frost burnt down her family stable, burning her favorite horse alive. Which is loving insane given that every other interaction Frost has with mutant kids, she's not always a good person, but is very protective of them. Intentionally killing a favorite pet in a gruesome manner is so out of character.
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Oct 30, 2021 18:14
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The last time I remember seeing Livewire in a comic was pre-New 52, she was trying to turn over a new leaf and Superman gave her his old suit back from his electric days to help her regulate her powers (that were going out of control and making her go a little crazy at the time) and I thought that was neat. I have no idea what she's up to now after 1 and a half reboots (are we calling Rebirth a reboot?), probably generic villainy, which is too bad. I know electric heroes are, or at least seem to be sometimes, a dime a dozen, but I like always like a reformed villain story.
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Oct 30, 2021 18:30
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How many reformed villains stick to it tho? I remember Riddler reforming to be a private detective and I felt it had real promise. Still antagonistic to Batman, still obsessed with proving smarter, but in an overall better way and it justifies Batman's faith in people.
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Oct 30, 2021 19:00
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Is Mercy still an Amazon in the current comics canon? SlothfulCobra posted:I know that the comics felt the need to make Harley extra-dark because they;re very self-conscious and uncomfortable with being associated with "kid stuff" like cartoons. There was something about her having a split personality formed from trauma? Has any of that been stuck into the movies? I think the Arkham games had a bit implying that she wasn't a real doctor and that she slept her way through med school. The 'slept her way to good grades' thing is actually from the comics/cartoon. It's from Mad Love, the episode (and later comic) that is basically Harley's origin story. As for her not being a real doctor, basically it's a coin flip whether a writer knows there's a difference between a psychologist, psychotherapist or psychiatrist and half the time they just pick one. I tend to prefer when she's a psychiatrist because it honestly just gives you more tools if she's a full on medical doctor. The real 'tragic backstory' stuff with Harley is the stuff about her having daddy issues because her father was a low level mobster who abandoned her/got sent to prison when she was young.
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Oct 30, 2021 19:23
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Harley having an actual medical degree is the best version of Harley.
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Oct 30, 2021 19:30
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I don't read comics too often but I've always liked Titania and Absorbing Man in Marvel because they aren't really evil. They're crooks but usually presented very sympathetically, AM might even go to a bar and sing with the heroes about their girl troubles. Anyway, on the topic of reformed villains, a few years ago there was a comic called Illuminati: Life of Crime that was prematurely cancelled but it was centered on Titania trying to go legit but being unable to find regular work and also SHIELD had brainwashed Creel into thinking he was somebody else. I had the relevant scans of Titania talking to Shulkie about how hard it is to go straight and narrow but can't get to my imgur right now. It was interesting, though. In any event, this thread has made me kind of interested in the HQ show. Wonder what happened to Harley's accent, though. I dunno, just first thing I thought when hearing her voice in this preview for Season 3.
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Oct 30, 2021 19:35
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Cuoco goes pretty light with the accent, depending on how generous you want to be she's either doing a 'moved away from NY to go to college and it's faded unless she's worked up or with family' or just lazy with it. Titania and Giganta are like the Big Two's counterparts of 'big strong ladies who do crimes to pay the bills' and they both mostly dislike their 'nemesis' because they think she's kinda stuck up. G Willow Wilson and Gail Simone both had stories where Diana just hangs out with Giganta and they banter as frenemies and the recent Gamma Flight mini and Immortal Hulk in general had a fun take on Titania. And the recent Marvel Pride special had a cute story where she sees She-Hulk at a con and attacks her only to find out it's actually a trans girl in costume because she grew up idolising Jen and seeing her be tall and buff but still feminine helped her find the courage to come out, and even pick the name Jennifer in tribute. And they have coffee and bond and it's super sweet Gaz-L fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Oct 30, 2021 |
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Oct 30, 2021 19:38
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Hickman didn’t get the memo about Absorbing Man not being explicitly evil, because that poo poo in Secret Warriors was excessively dark.
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Oct 30, 2021 20:06
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:Livewire's fun, but yeah, Mercy's kind of barely a character. Like she's not bad or anything and does her role in the story and stuff well, but yeah. Podcaster. You make Livewire some kind of awful podcaster.
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Oct 30, 2021 20:31
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Skwirl posted:Emma Frost burnt down her family stable, burning her favorite horse alive. Which is loving insane given that every other interaction Frost has with mutant kids, she's not always a good person, but is very protective of them. Intentionally killing a favorite pet in a gruesome manner is so out of character. yeah but it lets me ask people "remember that time Emma Frost blew up a horse"
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Oct 30, 2021 22:44
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NikkolasKing posted:Many, many years ago now I was talking with people about favorite Batman character designs and it was interesting to note how, even though Ivy is a buxom temptress in TAS, she's very different in a lot of other stuff. She's not as sexualized in her TNBA redesign, and in The Batman she's a skinny nerd. The Batman is an underrated version of Ivy in general. Wasn't she positioned to be Batgirl's nemesis in The Batman?
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Oct 31, 2021 01:35
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OnimaruXLR posted:Wasn't she positioned to be Batgirl's nemesis in The Batman? Yes. It's been a while but my memory is that Pam and Babs were friends at school and they were both environmentalists but Pam wanted to go further and they went to break into some lab or whatever, an accident happened, and Pam ended up as Poison Ivy. She tried to reach out to Babs at first but Barbara actually became Batgirl to fight her and save Batman. Ivy nearly took over the city at one point with mind controlling plants. She basically had a lot more power going on than TAS Ivy with her tentacle vines and brainwashing kisses. Sadly, despite her close relationship to Barbara and Barbara being more prominent than Robin in The Batman (Robin also has the same boring old origin as opposed to this far more interesting origin for Babara), she doesn't really do anything after nearly taking over Gotham. As I recall, she gets more focus in The Batman comic. But yeah, like The Batman's Riddler, I love The Batman's take on Ivy. She had no connection at all to Harley here and I'm told in another Batman cartoon wheer Ivy and Harley aren't close, I think Harley is the one with a close relation to Barbara? Just something mentioned elsewhere. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 01:58 on Oct 31, 2021 |
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Oct 31, 2021 01:52
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The Batman's tie-in comic also presented an interesting twist on the usual Harley/Ivy dynamic since Harley is the older more experienced member of the duo here
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Oct 31, 2021 03:54
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AlternateNu posted:But there's a whole lot of racial text and subtext with the different colored Martians.
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Nov 1, 2021 16:19
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Kurzon posted:It's strange to me that skin color would matter to a species of shapeshifters. It's a caste system. Different colors makes it easier for viewers. I know that's not how it started but it's a happy coincidence. I think originally the white Martians were just "evil Martians."
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Nov 1, 2021 17:20
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They also outright say it’s ridiculous a species of shapeshifters put so much importance on color in the show.
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Nov 1, 2021 18:29
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So all this talk of comic book cartoons is making me want to rewatch my favorite one of all time, X-Men Evolution. But I'm a fair man and when thinking about all it did right, I can't help but think of one thing it did terribly, terribly wrong. X-Men Evolution ends with Pietro and Wanda carrying away their father Magneto after they freed him from mind control. It's very touching. Meanwhile, Rogue and Kurt turn their back on Mystique, their mother who has also been brought back to her senses. Now, Mystique and Magneto have a lot of awful deeds to their name but Evo Mystique is generally portrayed as more evil than Mags. But all of that matters not to me because Wanda only helps her father away because he literally had her brainwashed to forget why she hates him. The narrative presents this sweet scene of "aw, look, these kids can forgive and love their father" but it's all a sham! If Wanda had her own mind, her own will, she'd do a Rogue and kick her helpless pops off a cliff. So, even if in some rather arbitrary moral calculus way Mystique is more evil than Magneto, it doesn't justify the dichotomy presented here of forgiveness and rejection. Mags should be just as rejected as Mystique was. I've never understood what the writers were thinking. Everything they do with Wanda post-brainwashing strikes me as "she's OP plz nerf" and no further thought put into it at all.
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Nov 1, 2021 20:35
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I suspect that would have come up if they got a second season. Also people's actions aren't inherently logical. And in general (can't speak to the cartoon I watched about half of it and barely remember), the evil Mystique does tends to be a lot more personal than the evil Magneto does, so more likely to provoke a personal reaction.
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Nov 1, 2021 20:40
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Ok. I can't tell whether Batman Ninja was good or bad, it was certainly the most ridiculous thing I've seen in quite a while. 
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Nov 11, 2021 03:02
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AlternateNu posted:Ok. I can't tell whether Batman Ninja was good or bad, it was certainly the most ridiculous thing I've seen in quite a while. It was A Thing. It's fun but not batman...
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Nov 11, 2021 04:09
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AlternateNu posted:Ok. I can't tell whether Batman Ninja was good or bad, it was certainly the most ridiculous thing I've seen in quite a while. It is very much the sort of crazy thing you'd expect Kazuki Nakashima (of Gurren Lagann fame) to write.
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Nov 11, 2021 08:08
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Skwirl posted:It's a caste system. Different colors makes it easier for viewers. I know that's not how it started but it's a happy coincidence.
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Nov 11, 2021 09:36
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wielder posted:It is very much the sort of crazy thing you'd expect Kazuki Nakashima (of Gurren Lagann fame) to write. Yeah, no doubt. But unlike Gurren Lagann, it doesn't work when the MC is an uptight broody warrior like Batman. Joker/Harley and Catwoman were the best parts. Grodd was good. The rest were non-characters. Sumo Bane at least got a chuckle. On a completely different tack, Damien's haircut was straight off-putting despite knowing the reference. Kurzon posted:And likewise, I'd imagine a species of telepaths would be more empathetic to each other. I dunno. I've always doubted that kind of conclusion from sci-fi IPs. Empathy and knowledge aren't necessarily connected. There's a reason telepaths and empaths are typically defined separately. That said, I liked the huge swerve from YJ's latest episode. Jade/Artemis' family dynamic was always one of my favorite parts of the show. AlternateNu fucked around with this message at 16:31 on Nov 11, 2021 |
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Nov 11, 2021 16:27
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I enjoyed Ninja Batman a fair bit and thought that Batman's characterization as unflappably dry in the face of a bunch of weird poo poo gave it arguably the most silver age flavor out of any animated Batman project other than the Brave and the Bold I'm enjoying Young Justice a lot more now that we're focusing on the Sportsmaster family (that's a weird sentence) but honestly this episode felt kind of like it was pandering to me in particular, given it's focus on Cassandra Onyx is basically a new character at this point by tying her into Amazing-Man, right? Kinda like what they did with Halo.
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Nov 12, 2021 11:40
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https://twitter.com/MarvelStudios/status/1459198169409994755
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Nov 12, 2021 17:37
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Hoping they pick up exactly where they left off as if nearly 30 years hadn't passed.
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Nov 12, 2021 17:44
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https://twitter.com/SpiderMan/status/1459200234983206919 https://twitter.com/disneyplus/status/1459201152717783046 lomzus fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Nov 12, 2021 |
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Nov 12, 2021 17:45
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Lobok posted:Hoping they pick up exactly where they left off as if nearly 30 years hadn't passed. Does that include the awful final season? And it was awful even by the show's standards I was just talking to some folks elsewhere about what old comic toons hold up and how X-Men TAS definitely doesn't. I guess it be too much to hope we'd get a continuation of X-Men Evolution. It's only the much better show with a lot more plot threads left hanging.
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Nov 12, 2021 17:51
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Sweet. I'll probably have finished the 2017 series by then. Wonder if it's freshman year of high school or university? I'm guessing high school.
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Nov 12, 2021 17:52
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NikkolasKing posted:Does that include the awful final season? And it was awful even by the show's standards Explain.
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Nov 12, 2021 17:56
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Lobok posted:Sweet. I'll probably have finished the 2017 series by then. Ah, well there we go. It's an MCU animated show. quote:The animated series follows Peter Parker on his way to becoming Spider-Man in the MCU, with a journey unlike we've ever seen and a style that celebrates the character’s early comic book roots.
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Nov 12, 2021 18:08
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Toshimo posted:Explain. Which part? Because admittedly it's been a long time since I watched TAS and I bailed on Season 5 because I wasn't liking any of it. Bit in my experience, even fans of the show didn't like the final season. But as for the rest of the series' badness, the writing and voice-acting are both laughably terrible. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-K1D8y_Pxs The costume designs are hideous. Jubilee was bad even by the standards of the 90s, imagine her in 2021. And they did this to Jean https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzc5VHL1bPM Some people would point to Batman TAS and say "look at what a comic cartoon could be." But I think even Spiderman TAS was a lot better than this with more compelling characters, voice-acting, and writing.
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Nov 12, 2021 18:09
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NikkolasKing posted:Some people would point to Batman TAS and say "look at what a comic cartoon could be." But I think even Spiderman TAS was a lot better than this with more compelling characters, voice-acting, and writing. Shocker
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Nov 12, 2021 18:19
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I like the series a lot even if it gets pretty cheesy with its performances and soap opera drama. B:TAS may have reinvented Batman to try to give it a timeless (or at least, dated to a time long before its release) noir feel, but X:TAS reveled in what comics were, especially at the time. The costumes are all bright and colorful and distinctive. The actors try over the top to emote. Wolverine kinda sounds like an animal half the time. The final season was pretty bad though. B:TAS got redesigned in its final season because it was blooming into a larger continuum of shows, X:TAS got its budget cut and the marvel shows of the 90s never really coalesced into something bigger, and didn't leave as much of an impression on their IPs compared to Bruce Timm's interpretation of characters becoming so definitive. It was still an important part of the development of cartoons as a medium though.
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Nov 12, 2021 18:31
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Wonder if the new X-Men series will use the slight redesigns that Disney has been using on their merchandise the last few years. Mohawk Storm!
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Nov 12, 2021 18:42
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SlothfulCobra posted:The final season was pretty bad though. B:TAS got redesigned in its final season because it was blooming into a larger continuum of shows, X:TAS got its budget cut and the marvel shows of the 90s never really coalesced into something bigger, and didn't leave as much of an impression on their IPs compared to Bruce Timm's interpretation of characters becoming so definitive. Wikipedia claims (with a citation needed note, admittedly) that Fox suddenly wanted more episodes after season five - which would have been a fine ending point - and Saban did the last five episodes in house to save money. Saban kind of cheaping out is something I can buy.
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Nov 12, 2021 18:46
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