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Boris Galerkin posted:I mean yeah, I can understand why the oppressed civilization of people living in hiding in caves underground would not have satellites or any orbital warning/defense systems. But that doesn’t explain why the great house of atrteides, a space faring civilization with advanced technology, wouldn’t bring any with them when they clearly know that the whole thing is a trap. Improbably, they don't know it's a trap until the shield wall comes down. The strength and importance of the shield wall and the general function of shields in dune could have been much better explained.
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Oct 31, 2021 16:36
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:Not at all, sorry I didn't mean for that to sound dismissive. His horror at the visions he sees in the tent after they escape Arrakeen is important, but it's very mild foreshadowing without context. Yeah I’m sure the film makes a whole lot more sense to people who know the source material and to be honest, it’s a very pretty movie and the parts that are good are good. It’s just that I don’t think non-book readers line me are the target audience, which is totally fine.
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Oct 31, 2021 16:38
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:Improbably, they don't know it's a trap until the shield wall comes down. The strength and importance of the shield wall and the general function of shields in dune could have been much better explained. I edited that post for more context because I think the context was missed. But in response to this post, the Duke did know that the whole thing was a trap because he says as much, and also the ugly Baron guy says as much too. He didn’t know the specifics of how it was going to go down, but he clearly knew from the get go that the Emperor giving them stewardship of that planet was not in good faith and that they needed to be prepared for war. So you would think that knowing this they would have put some tech points into their early defense systems or whatever.
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Oct 31, 2021 16:41
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Stop worrying about
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Oct 31, 2021 16:42
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They don't really do a great job of explaining that the Guild has a total monopoly on space transportation. Having the scene where they board the ship would have been nice; the transition to Arrakis seemed rather abrupt and you get a sense how huge the Guild ships really are, with the entire House and all its retinue and ships barely taking up a fraction of the cargo space. There are no orbital defenses because the only thing to shoot at would be Guild ships.
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Oct 31, 2021 16:46
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Boris Galerkin posted:I edited that post for more context because I think the context was missed. Well, heighliners don't have travel time, they just pop into space where they're going. I guess they could have been warned when the fleet showed up but it looked like the time from arriving in low orbit to landing was like 3 minutes. Shield walls in dune are huge and impenetrable, once that went down they were hosed no matter what they did or didn't have in orbit.
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Oct 31, 2021 16:47
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Boris Galerkin posted:Ok, but like I said I know literally nothing about the story of Dune other than what the movie showed me. And what the movie showed me was that those dream sequences did not happen, so going by that am I really dumb to not take much stock in them? Paul is prescient, but he's not good at it yet so usually his visions come out as dreams that are just metaphors. Jamis tells Paul he's going to teach him the way of the desert in one dream, and he does, but not in that way he dreamed.
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Oct 31, 2021 16:47
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Just wanna reiterate that I don’t think the movie was bad, just that it wasn’t great for someone in my position (likes sci-fi in general, but somehow knows duck all about Dune). I had fun streaming it from the comfort of my couch but would have felt unsatisfied with spending money on movie tickets.
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Oct 31, 2021 16:47
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There's a lot of poo poo I'm hoping that they saved for the second one. Maybe by the time it's out, this one will have grown on you a little.
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Oct 31, 2021 16:50
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So how does space travel work in this setting? They have spaceships that take off from the planet’s surface into orbit… and they load them onto a bigger spaceship like a ferry, and the ferry just FTL teleports? Are those “ring” ships that I think the movie showed in two scenes the FTL teleport ships?
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Oct 31, 2021 16:55
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Boris Galerkin posted:So how does space travel work in this setting? They have spaceships that take off from the planet’s surface into orbit… and they load them onto a bigger spaceship like a ferry, and the ferry just FTL teleports? Are those “ring” ships that I think the movie showed in two scenes the FTL teleport ships? Pretty much yeah. One of the big surprises for me was seeing how they completely skipped the star liner jump scene, though considering how they looked in the other two versions, I can see why.
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Oct 31, 2021 16:58
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Boris Galerkin posted:So how does space travel work in this setting? They have spaceships that take off from the planet’s surface into orbit… and they load them onto a bigger spaceship like a ferry, and the ferry just FTL teleports? Are those “ring” ships that I think the movie showed in two scenes the FTL teleport ships? Yep. The Spacing Guild has a complete monopoly on travel by "folding space", which requires navigators to be hopped up on shitloads of spice. As a result you get situations like two armies on opposite sides travelling to a battlefield in the same ship with no idea they're right next to each other until they land. Guild ships are wildly expensive and only ever used by the great houses, so it would be in poor taste to have orbital defenses against them.
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Oct 31, 2021 16:59
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Boris Galerkin posted:I edited that post for more context because I think the context was missed. This is veering into 'people not doing the rational, correct thing is a plot hole' territory.
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Oct 31, 2021 17:00
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The guild navigators take lots of spice and use it to see the future so they can chart a course for a jump that folds space and allows the entire intervening distance to be travelled instantly. Without the spice, they'd most likely hit something along the way.
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Oct 31, 2021 17:00
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Hodgepodge posted:The guild navigators take lots of spice and use it to see the future so they can chart a course for a jump that folds space and allows the entire intervening distance to be travelled instantly. Without the spice, they'd most likely hit something along the way. Do those people not have
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Oct 31, 2021 17:06
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Boris Galerkin posted:Do those people not have Thinking machines are super ultra mega illegal in both a legal and religious sense, the penalty for creating one is death. In the book, this is a result of an ancient AI war that was so loving bad that thousands of years later everyone's still like "nope, never doing that again"
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Oct 31, 2021 17:07
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Boris Galerkin posted:Do those people not have Not at all! Dune was pretty forward thinking in that it predicted computers got too good and almost destroyed all of mankind so everybody agreed to have no computers
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Oct 31, 2021 17:30
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THE AWESOME GHOST posted:Not at all! Dune was pretty forward thinking in that it predicted computers got too good and almost destroyed all of mankind so everybody agreed to have no computers well, also frank herbert was sick of everyone ripping off asimov so he made it a writing exercise.
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Oct 31, 2021 17:34
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And also that Dune itself is a response to Foundation where the Mule is our protagonist, so there's an element of inversion for its own sake.
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Oct 31, 2021 17:36
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Defiance Industries posted:And also that Dune itself is a response to Foundation where the Mule is our protagonist, so there's an element of inversion for its own sake. Paul is not the Mule, he's the second foundation personified, but I think that Herbert's twist is actually that in a universe where prescience is possible you'll get prescient folks trying to outpredict one another and in the process effectively rob everyone else from their agency and humanity. In Asimov's foundation literally every single living person is a pawn. Asimov's utopia of a perfect paternalistic shadow government is for Herbert a nightmarish dystopia.
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Oct 31, 2021 17:47
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Boris Galerkin posted:I mean yeah, I can understand why the oppressed civilization of people living in hiding in caves underground would not have satellites or any orbital warning/defense systems. But that doesn’t explain why the great house of atrteides, a space faring civilization with advanced technology, wouldn’t bring any with them when they clearly know that the whole thing is a trap. Because the Fremen bribe the guild with spice to not put any satellites in orbit. Hopefully we'll get into this in part 2 because the Fremen are way more savvy and organized than even the Atreides were willing to believe. The guild gets to not lift a finger and in return they get to double dip on their quota of space drugs. In return the Fremen get to hide virtually their entire civilization from the foreign oppressors. Win-win.
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Oct 31, 2021 17:51
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The Foundation series is mostly a good glimpse into the mind of a technocrat; people needing to be mind controlled into disagreeing with them lol. Asimov was also, er, reminiscent of recent presidents in a particular way.
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Oct 31, 2021 17:53
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Arglebargle III posted:Because the Fremen bribe the guild with spice to not put any satellites in orbit. Hopefully we'll get into this in part 2 because the Fremen are way more savvy and organized than even the Atreides were willing to believe. The guild gets to not lift a finger and in return they get to double dip on their quota of space drugs. In return the Fremen get to hide virtually their entire civilization from the foreign oppressors. Win-win. Yeah in the book the really really big deal with the Fremen isn't just that they're god-tier fighters and there's a lot of them, it's that they're just as advanced as any of the other great house and have the same level of mastery over the environment of their planet as any other great house. The rest of the galaxy doesn't see it though because their long term goal is "change Arrakis' environment" instead of "scheme a lot to become more powerful/rule the empire some day"
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Oct 31, 2021 19:08
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If you glance at the map in the book you start to realize how shockingly arrogant the Great Houses were to assume that their little huddle of towns in the arctic circle was the only civilization on Arrakis.
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Oct 31, 2021 19:12
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GORDON posted:So many great, key lines left out.... almost as if the rule was, "If it was a line in the 1984 movie, I don't want it in this movie." No "cattle and loveplay." No "are you suggesting the Duke's son is an animal/no I'm suggesting he may be human." No "release my son's bonds." I would love to know if this was a studio note, or if it came from Denis or one of the other writers. I think they even skipped "the sleeper must awaken".
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Oct 31, 2021 19:19
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I think the Fremen is a bit where Herbert tries to have things both ways; Dune is a 'test for the faithful' that produces super-hardy fighters by sheer harshness of the conditions, yet the Fremen have also established themselves to the point where they are doing advanced manufacturing ('Fremem stillsuits are the best').
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Oct 31, 2021 19:24
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Arglebargle III posted:Because the Fremen bribe the guild with spice to not put any satellites in orbit. Hopefully we'll get into this in part 2 because the Fremen are way more savvy and organized than even the Atreides were willing to believe. The guild gets to not lift a finger and in return they get to double dip on their quota of space drugs. In return the Fremen get to hide virtually their entire civilization from the foreign oppressors. Win-win. Well ok, so the Fremen bribe the Space Guild not to put satellites in orbits. That’s fine and all but I’m asking why House Arteides, a space faring civilization capable of producing spacecraft and going to conquer/settle a planet, who fully knows that it’s a trap and that they’ll be attacked by the previous conquerors of the planet, who’s only avenue of getting to said planet was via space transport, did not send up their own satellites and other defense systems? Dr. Fishopolis posted:Yep. The Spacing Guild has a complete monopoly on travel by "folding space", which requires navigators to be hopped up on shitloads of spice. As a result you get situations like two armies on opposite sides travelling to a battlefield in the same ship with no idea they're right next to each other until they land. Guild ships are wildly expensive and only ever used by the great houses, so it would be in poor taste to have orbital defenses against them. This explanation kinda makes sense, but also medieval castles had moats and stuff. Boris Galerkin fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Oct 31, 2021 |
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Oct 31, 2021 19:37
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Pretty much all spacefaring activity can be assumed to take place with at least implicit permission from the Spacing Guild, the real power nexus within the Imperium. Also just saw this on the big screen for a second time and it owned even more this time, gently caress this movie is exactly what I wanted
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Oct 31, 2021 19:45
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Inspector Gesicht posted:Imagine if this movie had the same producer as Dear Evan Hansen, which means casting his very adult son Ben Platt as the teenage lead. With all the makeup to hide his creases he'd look scarier than the Baron. Though he would be suited to play a sandworm. Chalamet is only 2 years younger than Platt. Okay, hear me out, Ben Platt as Feyd.
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Oct 31, 2021 19:47
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Jake Gyllenhaal as Feyd
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Oct 31, 2021 19:51
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Millie Bobby Brown as Feyd
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Oct 31, 2021 19:58
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stev posted:Millie Bobby Brown as Feyd With Drake replacing Stellan.
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Oct 31, 2021 20:12
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lil nas x is the only acceptable answer
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Oct 31, 2021 20:14
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Patrick Stewart as the Shadout Mapes
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Oct 31, 2021 20:36
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Boris Galerkin posted:Well ok, so the Fremen bribe the Space Guild not to put satellites in orbits. That’s fine and all but I’m asking why House Arteides, a space faring civilization capable of producing spacecraft and going to conquer/settle a planet, who fully knows that it’s a trap and that they’ll be attacked by the previous conquerors of the planet, who’s only avenue of getting to said planet was via space transport, did not send up their own satellites and other defense systems? Space defenses aren't allowed by decree of the Spacing Guild (no accidents allowed with regards to Heighliners and they know what the Great Houses are like), and even an observation/weather satellite system requires their permission and their people to run it. Sending a frigate in a suborbital hop is also something that requires permission and overflights of the South Pole (and their terraforming zones) are something the Fremen pay a shitton of spice to prevent. The Guild is absolute in space by treaty and law and they enforce their monopoly jealously.
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Oct 31, 2021 20:41
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Boris Galerkin posted:I mean yeah, I can understand why the oppressed civilization of people living in hiding in caves underground would not have satellites or any orbital warning/defense systems. But that doesn’t explain why the great house of atrteides, a space faring civilization with advanced technology, wouldn’t bring any with them when they clearly know that the whole thing is a trap. It's not that the Fremen can't put satellites in orbit (although they probably can't) but that they bribe the Spacing Guild to prevent whoever's ruling over Arrakis from putting satellites in orbit. The Fremen do this so nobody becomes aware that there are actually a lot of Fremen and that they're actively terraforming the planet in a way that would impact spice production (the one thing that might get all the noble houses and the emperor to gang together to exterminate them). I don't think it's stated anywhere but it gave me the idea that great houses can't legally send anything into space (even just in orbit) without the Guild's permission, because as you say clearly they do have the ability to do it. It could also be something that only applies to Arrakis because it's the only source of the spice and everybody is paranoid about anything disrupting the spice production. Kassad fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Oct 31, 2021 |
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Oct 31, 2021 20:43
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Admiral Bosch posted:lil nas x is the only acceptable answer
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Oct 31, 2021 20:51
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Boris Galerkin posted:I’m asking why House Arteides, a space faring civilization capable of producing spacecraft and going to conquer/settle a planet, who fully knows that it’s a trap and that they’ll be attacked by the previous conquerors of the planet, who’s only avenue of getting to said planet was via space transport, did not send up their own satellites and other defense systems? Boris Galerkin posted:Do those people not have
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Oct 31, 2021 21:02
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On the one hand, this is probably the best depiction of ornithopters put to film. On the other hand, they still look too mechanical, for me.
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Oct 31, 2021 21:26
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Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:On the one hand, this is probably the best depiction of ornithopters put to film. I dont know, I kind of appreciate how they echo modern american military equipment.
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Oct 31, 2021 21:30
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