|
Paradox combat is boring but satisfying. I'm curious for this.
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2021 19:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 4, 2024 19:33 |
|
|
fuf posted:nice, I'm very happy about the abstraction away from moving individual units. Going off the dev diary it sounds like theyve removed on map units entirely in favor of abstracted fronts
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2021 19:37
|
|
|
I'm looking forward to seeing how it all works in practice tbh. There's things like cavalry raids and cross-border small-scale raiding that aren't so effectively simulated with a moving fronts model, but there's always advantages and drawbacks to any particular simulation approach. I'm really curious to see if the system can simulate smaller-scale wars where a large country or a colonial power just sends a few regional garrisons to deal with a local conflict rather than committing their entire army to it, rather than the normal paradox AI 100% all wars are total wars approach.
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2021 19:39
|
|
|
This sounds like another improvement that I've been wanting to see in pdox games. I hate the micromanaging of units and managing fronts or states is much more what I am interested in. I also look forward to seeing how this impacts asymmetrical wars, rebellions, and frontier conflicts which the current systems are terrible at modeling.
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2021 19:42
|
|
|
loving finally, as someone who played V1 and V2 and experienced multiple Great Wars, not having to blanket siege another major power ever again in V3 is all you had to say to completely sell me on it. Not that I wasn't already, mind. Microing units was never and never will be an enjoyable thing for me.
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2021 19:59
|
|
|
I will miss punching way above my weight by bullying the ais terrible ability to fight wars
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2021 20:00
|
|
|
This is the best war system ever proposed for a Paradox GSG, and I am going to spend so many hours in this game. I love you Wiz!!
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2021 20:05
|
|
|
Yes! A warfare system actually appropriate to the scale of a grand strategy game! This legitimately sounds like a dream come true. Man I hope they pull it off. In the meantime, definitely gonna carefully avoid the Vicky 3 subreddit for a good while, since apparently they’ve already been having a ton of drama over this exact concept.
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2021 20:12
|
|
|
To contrast, I will absolutely be following the Vicky 3 subreddit, for precisely the reason you are avoiding it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2021 20:27
|
|
|
This sounds amazing. Great job Wiz and team! I'm so loving hyped!
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2021 20:27
|
|
|
Sounds generally like a welcome improvement but disappointing as I would've preferred something that while de-emphasized direct micro in war still kept units on the map; my main worry as such is how they handle having measurable progress in war; half the fun is seeing the map change colour after all! I hope its like you assign units (to a front) and if you're doing well you see that your "forces" (to differentiate from "troops" or "units" are occupying enemy land province by province, prioritizing things like cities, railways, rivers, ports, etc, but not the direct "units" except as abstractions you can hover over see see directly what their status is but still having menu's with more detailed breakdowns. Kinda similar to the EU4 style siege ticker mechanics from Stellaris.
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2021 20:51
|
|
|
I loathed Victoria II warfare, this seems like it's right up my alley though!
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2021 20:56
|
|
|
Raenir Salazar posted:Sounds generally like a welcome improvement but disappointing as I would've preferred something that while de-emphasized direct micro in war still kept units on the map; my main worry as such is how they handle having measurable progress in war; half the fun is seeing the map change colour after all! They’ve expanded the number of provinces since V2 and Wiz said in the thread the province layer has an important role to play in war, so I expect you’ll be able to see the ebb and flow of combat on the map. I’m quite interested to see that element of the system - the main downside I see to abstraction is it become harder to represent the impact of terrain and geography. It’s easy to give a unit located in a mountain province a +50% defensive bonus; how do you reflect that when units are abstracted to a broader front? It’s possible of course but needs some careful thought.
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2021 21:01
|
|
|
Really looking forward to this now, making war more abstract sounds risky but I feel like it's necessary for such an Economy and Politics focused game. Like, I want the Economy I've built to be the main reason I'm winning wars, not some General camping in a mountain province with an army.
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2021 21:03
|
|
|
the pole or the dole posted:Like, I want the Economy I've built to be the main reason I'm winning wars, not some General camping in a mountain province with an army. -Abraham Lincoln, 1862
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2021 21:03
|
|
|
It's really hard to be getting into specific criticisms of the new system when we know only the most high level design ideas so far. I could be an incredibly abstracted system that turns every "front" into a simplistic rock paper scissors army building and just doesn't end up good or satisfying, or it could be an incredibly good and revolutionary new idea that allows Paradox to make a generational leap in game design. Hard to say without seeing it in motion.
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2021 21:14
|
|
|
And that's it, this DD just sold me this whole game. I think it will be a rough reception and start, but definitely will benefit in the long term. Not to mention that the AI might be finally able to compete with a human on a more equal footing
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2021 21:16
|
|
:I'd like to borrow $200M
|
They're doing it, they're really doing it
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2021 21:38
|
|
|
if victoria 3 is able to model riverine warfare properly i will instant preorder
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2021 21:42
|
|
|
It sounds like what they did was flip the HOI4 design on its head. Perhaps we'll get abstracted land wars with troop training orders and supply lines connected to vast theatres, and micro-intensive naval combat with specific naval units to order around?
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2021 21:53
|
|
|
How they represent it visually is going to be key. If it's a bunch of numbers then it's going to be disappointing. If I have a big army it should look impressive on the map. If northern France has turned into a nightmare of trench warfare it should look devastated. If they pull that off then I think it will be just as satisfying as ordering divisions around. They also need to make sure there's enough to do in the rest of the game without army management being there to pad it out. I don't think that's the case with any of their other titles.
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2021 21:54
|
|
|
In general though actually it is kinda neat we're playing more as Lincoln than as God-Emperor Rommel. We're seeing reports from the front and writing angry letters to the relevant interest groups to keep things moving. Most importantly this system might actually help model why Prussia did so well between like 1850 and 1871 and while UK-France struggled against Russia.
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2021 21:56
|
|
|
DrSunshine posted:It sounds like what they did was flip the HOI4 design on its head. Perhaps we'll get abstracted land wars with troop training orders and supply lines connected to vast theatres, and micro-intensive naval combat with specific naval units to order around? naval micro is annoying as hell in every paradox game I’ve had to do it in so no thanks. I’m not sure where you got that from though and I doubt it happens.
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2021 21:57
|
|
|
Wiz don't you dare make Naval Micro heavy
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2021 21:58
|
|
|
good, combat in every Paradox game is genuinely an awful slog
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2021 22:02
|
|
|
BBJoey posted:They’ve expanded the number of provinces since V2 and Wiz said in the thread the province layer has an important role to play in war, so I expect you’ll be able to see the ebb and flow of combat on the map. I’m quite interested to see that element of the system - the main downside I see to abstraction is it become harder to represent the impact of terrain and geography. It’s easy to give a unit located in a mountain province a +50% defensive bonus; how do you reflect that when units are abstracted to a broader front? It’s possible of course but needs some careful thought. They've done a system like this back in I think CK2 where provinces have a percentage of land that is X, so you'd have a 15% chance to fight in a forest and a 35% chance to fight in farmland and so on. I can see them giving this system more nuance for V3, where some battles are fought in mountains and others are on plains. What I want to know is how naval invasions are handled, I think the simplest method might be designating a hostile state as the target and an owned/allied state as the launching point, but I'm curious to see the actual method the team has landed on, as I can see them automating that in the fronts system as well. Edit: Also, echoing I'm hoping that this will probably be easier for the AI to handle as well. Ardryn fucked around with this message at 22:09 on Nov 4, 2021 |
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2021 22:02
|
|
|
yikes! posted:naval micro is annoying as hell in every paradox game I’ve had to do it in so no thanks. I’m not sure where you got that from though and I doubt it happens.
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2021 22:09
|
|
|
Army is abstracted but you have to steer each ship with the keyboard
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2021 22:09
|
|
|
This is an incredibly courageous thing to do and I applaud Wiz and I'll definitely keep my eye on how they're developing this idea.A Buttery Pastry posted:Yeah, I don't see anything pointing to naval warfare being a bigger gameplay focus than land warfare. I mean, naval warfare is an even more obvious thing to abstract, given that it's very close to some ideal spherical warfare situation, where land wars at least have terrain and civilization to contend with. That navies have become more important in a strategic sense doesn't have to mean they're a major micro focus. Also, on this time period, you had two colossally heavy american ships firing at each other for an entire day with no casualties, a Russian dark-comedy expedition to the far east, an Austrian ramming the Italian Navy and the British and Germans absolutely terrified of losing their pretty ships and doing one single long range battle during the first world war before withdrawing and never fighting again. In this time period, navies were fundamental for strategic goals, but they were seldom used for their theoretically intended purpose.
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2021 22:30
|
|
|
ahahahahahaha awesome. either this is going to be great or it's going to continue the victoria tradition of jank so complicated and counterintuitive that your decisions are realistically based in misunderstanding and ideology. i cannot wait to see
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2021 22:41
|
|
|
Cease to Hope posted:ahahahahahaha awesome. either this is going to be great or it's going to continue the victoria tradition of jank so complicated and counterintuitive that your decisions are realistically based in misunderstanding and ideology. i cannot wait to see Winning a war in Vicky is actually just that Luigi wins at Mario party gif
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2021 22:51
|
|
|
CharlestheHammer posted:Winning a war in Vicky is actually just that Luigi wins at Mario party gif chuck, not even your usual terrible posts can harsh my vibe here
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2021 23:05
|
|
|
Count me in as someone who actually enjoys having units on the map, and has talked about it in this very thread. Anyway I'm not completely discounting the game because of this, only the conceptual stuff has really been talked about. It is disappointing if there are really no units on the map, I prefer the warfare to be actually visible when I look at two countries duke it out but we haven't found out exactly how visible it is. And while I think it's a good thing that the AI can in theory handle warfare better this way, that can be a double edged sword. Many players are able to take on larger and richer countries and win in other Paradox games because they can use the game mechanics to their advantage. I wouldn't be surprised if many fans get frustrated at having to deal with an AI competent enough that they are no longer able to win their underdog victories. On the other hand, micro can be annoying. ESPECIALLY in Vicky 2. So perhaps this is a good thing overall, I definitely want to see more before making any serious judgements.
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2021 23:49
|
|
|
Cease to Hope posted:chuck, not even your usual terrible posts can harsh my vibe here There are no good posts so what did you really expect
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2021 23:50
|
|
|
CharlestheHammer posted:There are no good posts so what did you really expect aspire to be better instead of wallowing in the muck
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2021 00:02
|
|
|
ThaumPenguin posted:https://twitter.com/PDXVictoria/status/1456305489856315400?t=W00ItlnzPn_hWQVuL_1d1g&s=19  this is incredibly lit holy gently caress
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2021 00:02
|
|
|
Jazerus posted:aspire to be better instead of wallowing in the muck Oh I wasn’t talking about me
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2021 00:04
|
|
|
The idea of not having an army that I control is so foreign to me that I'm interested to see what they do. Surely, there is still some representation of army progress on the map and explanations of combat rolls. As long as this system still gives me the satisfaction of utterly crushing the enemy, I think it will succeed. But wow I hope they get the AI right.
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2021 00:09
|
|
|
trapped mouse posted:Count me in as someone who actually enjoys having units on the map, and has talked about it in this very thread. I'd be shocked if there wasn't a purely cosmetic layer of formations ramming into each other and explosions along the frontlines.
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2021 00:13
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 4, 2024 19:33 |
|
|
This is going to be the greatest computer game of all time
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2021 01:25
|
|
