|
Has anyone looked under the 12th Gen's heat spreader yet? Fake Edit: Google's a wonderful thing: https://hothardware.com/news/intel-core-i9-12900k-alder-lake-delidding-video
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 22:32
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 28, 2024 02:53 |
|
|
Perplx posted:That’s a pretty arbitrary bench, it’s 6+8 @35w vs 8+2 @30w with a big rear end gpu adding to idle power. still if intel can beat the M1 when M1 is on 5nm, then intel's chip design is essentially 2 generations ahead of apple now
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2021 02:01
|
|
|
Paul MaudDib posted:Oh, that’s a good tip, I vaguely remember seeing those linked on ServeTheHome’s hot deals forum and looked at them briefly but didn’t dig into them too much. Any major downsides as a nuc-homeserver replacement or htpc? I've only had mine a little while but the only one I can really think of is that it doesn't have HDMI. I tried a Dell DP->HDMI 2.0 active adapter and it seemed to do 4k@60Hz with audio fine, so that should be an OK HTPC as long as it's reliable. Of course, if you get the extended chassis and pop a 1030 or whatever in it that doesn't matter anyway. That one also has two serial ports and a parallel port for anyone who really wants their home server to share their old printer and/or provide console access to their firewall/router/whatever. Oh, and the M.2 slot is SATA only; I popped an NVMe drive in and it wasn't recognized at all. I can't see it being a performance concern but personally I wasn't even thinking about it and ended up having to buy a second drive, so it's probably worth mentioning. e: The one I got also came with a Radeon E9173 which I haven't really gotten the chance to explore much yet, but from checking specs it appears to be basically the same as an RX 540/550. Eletriarnation fucked around with this message at 05:21 on Nov 7, 2021 |
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2021 05:14
|
|
|
mobby_6kl posted:Core counts are a social construct, buddy. just Bulldozer things...
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2021 05:25
|
|
|
BTW, that same video (at 21m) shows them getting 25k cines at 117W so you're getting 90% at half the power consumption. Not as good for bragging because as every gradenko_2000 posted:just Bulldozer things... Numbers between 0 and 1?! 
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2021 10:31
|
|
|
What are the not-sucky 800 to 1000 watt PSUs at the moment ? Given that the new processors can hit 200 watts paired with a 3090 card doing 300-400 watts having to feed these two 500-600 watts alone makes me think a 1k PSU is not a bad idea.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2021 20:29
|
|
|
https://linustechtips.com/topic/1116640-psu-tier-list/ I dont really think this is the gospel and I think people massively overestimate what they "need' for a good PSU, but its a good place to start. It's also good to pay attention to the models that have known trip issues with a 3090. Getting a good silent PSU with a good warranty (like the insane 12 year ones on Seasonic Primes) is a nice thing to have, too.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2021 20:44
|
|
|
I always buy the best *kind* of PSU (not the most expensive or highest wattage) PSU because I enjoy knowing that the hardest component to monitor is the best possible quality. I wish digital PSUs weren't in the minority, but I'm also not keen on spending $400+ on an AXi Corsair. $300 is my max for a PSU and even then I'd prefer it somewhere ~$200-250 max. Just be sure when you buy a Seasonic that you have access to your original invoice in some way, shape, or form. It's not a bad idea to print out a copy and put it into the cable bag. ...then try not to lose the cable bag. >.> All that being said, I'm partial to the Seasonic Prime Ultra Titanium units. BIG HEADLINE fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Nov 7, 2021 |
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2021 20:46
|
|
|
I’ve always been a fan of the EVGA Supernova G series, at my last job we bought a LOT (a few hundred G3-750s) and were always flicking the power on and off on them with varying loads and never had one go bad. The Corsairs we used prior to that had a few die.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2021 21:50
|
|
|
priznat posted:I’ve always been a fan of the EVGA Supernova G series, at my last job we bought a LOT (a few hundred G3-750s) and were always flicking the power on and off on them with varying loads and never had one go bad. The Corsairs we used prior to that had a few die. Yeah, part of the reason I'm so partial to Seasonic is my "dairy analogy." Seasonic is like the dairy that not only slaps their own labels on a gallon jug of milk, but also sends unlabeled jugs to supermarkets that then slap their *own* labels on the jugs. Why wouldn't you buy direct from the dairy if you could, especially when sometimes the supermarket tells the dairy that they want something ~special~ done to the milk to make it slightly more affordable? That being said, I'd *love* for Seasonic to put out a PSU with voltage monitoring built-in like the AXi series, but I very much doubt I'd buy their first-generation one. BIG HEADLINE fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Nov 7, 2021 |
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2021 22:36
|
|
|
BIG HEADLINE posted:Yeah, part of the reason I'm so partial to Seasonic is my "dairy analogy." Seasonic is like the dairy that not only slaps their own labels on a gallon jug of milk, but also sends unlabeled jugs to supermarkets that then slap their *own* labels on the jugs. This actually reminded me that the EVGA Supernova G5 is different than the G3 and not as good, the G3 and previous were based on the “Super Flower” (??) brand which was good but the tariffs or something affected the importation of these so they changed manufacturers for north america and the new ones aren’t as good. I’d go for a Seasonic if the G3s aren’t available anymore, a shame EVGA had to do that because they were a fantastic deal. The Corsair with the voltage monitoring does intrigue me though!
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2021 22:41
|
|
|
priznat posted:The Corsair with the voltage monitoring does intrigue me though! That's just the thing, though - it requires you to run the iCUE software and I've heard it can be a little iffy sometimes. My idea of voltage monitoring would be a simple HWMonitor-style program that tells you only the data you *need* to know without any superfluous bullshit.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2021 22:44
|
|
|
BIG HEADLINE posted:That's just the thing, though - it requires you to run the iCUE software and I've heard it can be a little iffy sometimes. Yeah something relatively open to access for a CPU-Z type application would be nice. Any time there is a required software for any hardware manufacturer things get a bit iffy. Are there any motherboard/GPU/peripheral makers who do an actual good job with this?
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2021 22:53
|
|
|
priznat posted:This actually reminded me that the EVGA Supernova G5 is different than the G3 and not as good, the G3 and previous were based on the “Super Flower” (??) brand which was good but the tariffs or something affected the importation of these so they changed manufacturers for north america and the new ones aren’t as good. Yeah, the G2, G3, P2, and T2 from EVGA all used Super Flower Leadex PSUs. The main difference between the G2 and G3 IIRC is that the G3 is slightly smaller and so is the fan so it's a bit louder.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2021 22:55
|
|
|
Cygni posted:https://linustechtips.com/topic/1116640-psu-tier-list/
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2021 23:07
|
|
|
You can actually directly buy the Superflower Leadex III/IV PSUs that the best EVGA models (G2/G3/T2/P2) are based on, as direct products. Those are currently the best value on the market last time I checked. Don’t do it without testing first, but I believe you can even swap cable sets with the EVGA models - EVGA didn’t change the pinouts, it is a direct rebrand of the super flower models.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2021 23:32
|
|
|
Here's an idea: Have everyone doing benchmarks start with "I reckon.." because that's at least honest.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2021 23:56
|
|
|
BIG HEADLINE posted:Yeah, part of the reason I'm so partial to Seasonic is my "dairy analogy." Seasonic is like the dairy that not only slaps their own labels on a gallon jug of milk, but also sends unlabeled jugs to supermarkets that then slap their *own* labels on the jugs. On the other hand, sometimes it takes bigger operations like Corsair and Cooler Master to ask bespoke power engineering geniuses at Flextronics and Murata to make big dick  supplies like the AXi1600 and the Maker 1200 MIJ respectively
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2021 00:18
|
|
|
I've had my 6700K since October 2016, before that was an i7 3770K and before that an i5 2500K. These were all fantastic CPUs for their time and gave me many years of service. The 6700K's service ended this week however as I was excited about the new 12th gen architecture. New technology for a desktop mainstream CPU, an unknown? No, mobile SoCs and portables have been running this type of thing for a while now but it's new to PC architecture, especially under Windows. Intel claimed it to be the biggest change in x86 architecture in a decade. I think that's fair cop. Anyway I was initially hell bent on 12900K as I'd never had a top of the line flagship CPU on release day before but as the leaks came fast I realised that all press kits sent out to reviewers contained only the 12900K and 12600K. Why was the 12700K missing? The reason ended up being exactly as I imagined. This model is so good that it makes you wonder why even bother with the 12900K. The i9 generates a lot of heat at max boost, uses a lot more power at this level, and costs £210 odd more than the 12700K. I ended up pre-ordering the 12700KF however as I don't need an iGPU and got it for £380 which i £78 more than what I paid for the 6700K back in 2015. Given the 6 generations of i7 since then, I think that's a fair premium to pay considering the monumental performance and efficiency increase lol. I chose not to go DDR5 though as already had decent DDR4 and all DDR5 RAM currently is expensive high latency stuff I have no interest in, plus massive stock issues all over the place for anything half decent. Here's what I went for and the rest was transplanted over from my 6700K build which has had a number of upgrades over the years so decent stuff to move over saving more money: 12700KF Gigabyte Z690 Gaming X DDR4 mobo Arctic Freezer II 280mm AIO Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut paste Corsair 5000D Airflow case Stuff moved over: Phanteks AMP 750w PSU 1TB Samsung 970 Evo Plus NVMe 8TB Samsung 870 QVO SATA SSD 32GB Corsair Vengeance RGB Pro SL Gigabyte RTX 2070 Super Gaming OC I'm not a fancy guy, I like things simple and effective, so this build was going to be even more minimal/clean than my 6700K build I told myself. 6700K build:  12700K build:  [igm]  [/img] I do a lot of photo editing in Lightroom and Photoshop as well as some video editing too so productivity gains was my main use case along with a few games here and there. I did some benches with Puget in Photoshop and timed a batch RAW file export in Lightroom to compare against My scores double and timed halved. To be expected given 5 years in advances in CPU performance/tech. Not that the 6700K was sluggish at all, but this is just something else. not only is it considerably faster at everything, but it's using less power, generating way less heat, the 6700K idled at 45 degrees for example and often maxed at the thermal limit when all cores were being taxed exporting in Lightroom. Hell not even Cinebench's MT benchmark could take the 12700KF's temp above 75 degrees and my idle/normal editing temps are around 27 degrees. I have to say I'm sold. I pre-ordered on a gut feeling that these new chips were something special and I'm glad I chose to wait until now to upgrade my core system as I would not have bothered if I went with say a 10900K and waited another year or two. People have been talking about DDR4 vs DDR5 with Alder Lake too. Well my benchmark scores all marry up with other 12th gen scores I've been seeing around the web so the DDR4 I have certainly isn't holding me back at all. This will easily see me through a few years and if Intel don't change the socket when the next chips are due, then I may well upgrade the CPU only to whatever replaces the 12700 if it proves to be another jump in efficiency and adds a few more cores in the process. Some also tried to convince me toward a Ryzen being citing that Ryzens are just better for multi core productivity. Well not exactly, the scores don't show that to be wholly true. Plus whilst I've had AMD before, I never got on with drivers and stability although I appreciate that's all changed nowadays. I do know that AMD had a nightmare with issues when Zen 3 initially launched. Many BIOS updates and things later things ironed out. I did price up a Ryzen 5900x upgrade too and that came to £800 just for a comparable mobo and CPU whereas for not much more I managed to get the cooler and case added to the order. Plus I've been hearing about how the Ryzens tend to run hotter anyway and I'm all about the silence as fans are PWM controlled on my rigs to around 400rpm and only ramp up when the CPU/PCH hits 60 degrees. Happy to do any others tests I have access to if people want to know more or questions etc.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2021 03:14
|
|
|
mrk posted:I've had my 6700K since October 2016, before that was an i7 3770K and before that an i5 2500K. These were all fantastic CPUs for their time and gave me many years of service. Another soldier leaves the 6700k army. I'll continue to hold it down. Great looking build. My desktop is going on 6 years old at this point, hope to build something come the new year.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2021 03:36
|
|
|
Hughmoris posted:Another soldier leaves the 6700k army. I'll continue to hold it down.  6700 here, will upgrade at some point in 2022 (depending on how Zen 4 looks and its release date). 12600/12700 is very tempting. gonna go DDR5 though, after good kits are released/reviewed/benched!
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2021 03:42
|
|
|
On a 6700K myself but it hasn't mattered very much to me as my main use-case is gaming at 4K on the living room television and I'm always GPU limited anyway. Didn't win the silicon lottery though and it only gets up to 4.4 game-stable but would never survive a torture test at that freq. From what I gather, subpar IMC too as I need to increase voltage to SA and VCCIO to get 3200 cl16 XMP stuff stable, and for sure the motherboard is already generous with the juice. But looking at TPU's charts, their gaming summary of the 12700k vs the 10400f (closest CPU on there to the 6700k lol) is just 5% at 4k. lmao just looked it up and that's no bueno without hardmods, forgot coffee lake went to a new chipset. Shrimp or Shrimps fucked around with this message at 04:35 on Nov 8, 2021 |
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2021 04:23
|
|
|
pmchem posted:
The Zen 3 refresh with 3D V cache will definitely be interesting. On some forums Ryzen ganboys were saying AMD will destroy Intel once again but once we look over these fantastical claims and speculations we realise that we've now reached a point where both Intel and AMD are at thetop of their games and any new advances from here on will likely be small gains over the previous version. Rumour says 3D v cache will offer a 15% gain over current Zen 3, and then Zen 4 will be what Alder Lake has been to 11th gen. By then Intel will have the next round of chips ready too. This is great for us consumers. It's been 10 years since Intel had something worthy again that ruffled feathers on the other side. It's great entertainment too lol. Hughmoris posted:Another soldier leaves the 6700k army. I'll continue to hold it down. I was half tempted to sit this release out as it's a new technology so there was every chance the gen 1 would be a bug ridden mess but it turns out it's been a bit of a winner really so I'm glad I did as now I've secured the next 5 years of computering for me haha. The 6700K will remain my favourite CPU that has given me the most service life though for sure. Will the 12700KF take that role in 5 years? Gotta wait and see I guess. Shrimp or Shrimps posted:On a 6700K myself but it hasn't mattered very much to me as my main use-case is gaming at 4K on the living room television and I'm always GPU limited anyway. Didn't win the silicon lottery though and it only gets up to 4.4 game-stable but would never survive a torture test at that freq. From what I gather, subpar IMC too as I need to increase voltage to SA and VCCIO to get 3200 cl16 XMP stuff stable, and for sure the motherboard is already generous with the juice. But looking at TPU's charts, their gaming summary of the 12700k vs the 10400f (closest CPU on there to the 6700k lol) is just 5% at 4k. The thing is at 1440P and above you are severely GPU bound. I fired up CP 2077 tonight and played an hour or so and noticed that at 2560x1080 I was now able to enable Raytracing in the city and maintain 60fps whereas on the 6700K I was unable to use RT in the city because it dipped to like 45fps average making it not enjoyable so played most of the game on the 6700K with RTX off when in the city. I whacked it up to 3440x1440 and got similar fps to the 6700K and GPU usage went way up according to GeForce Experience OSD. At 2560x1080 the CPU usage was hovering in the 31% range and RTX 2070 Super OC was 98% so that shows that with a powerful enough CPU on games like this, you still end up being GPU bound but the low fps and average fps range at 2560x1080 has evened out so much for me that the fps sticks to 60fps now whereas it dipped in the city before when RTX was on and more CPU power was commanded. At 3440x1440 it was 35-45fps in the city and CPU usage went down further with 99% GPU usage. These chips need to be fed with a hefty GPU at 1440P+ resolutions really! I'm fine for now at 2560x1080 though as my monitor's scaler is good enough to not notice a clarity difference between the two res in games I play. It lets me run them at Ultra and have RTX on so I'm all about that. -
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2021 05:19
|
|
|
Paul MaudDib posted:Tremont is the next full generation, and it's unfortunately the latest thing you can buy in a NUC, there is no Gracemont based NUC yet, so it's a generation behind. But still, node shrink to 10nm, another giant leap in per-thread performance, and now it has Xe graphics, so you get AV1 decode and Adaptive Sync and AV1 decode and so on - but no HDMI 2.1. Gracemont steps performance aggressively again and you get HDMI 2.1 and HDMI Org VRR, and full AVX2 support. Paul MaudDib posted:also if your budget is like $500 such that you're considering a current-gen NUC (even an Atom-based one), let me also raise that you could buy a M1 Mac Mini and ride that whole wave with Asahi Linux. The Mac Mini is actually very affordable for what it is and it's the best "NUC" on the market right now essentially at any price. Not only do you get 4 skylake tier e-cores but you also get 4 full fat p-cores with 5900X-level performance, in the nuc level power budget. It’s wildly outperforming Intel NUCs at >2x the build cost. I really appreciate this history of the Atom roundup, because it gets overlooked in mainstream tech coverage but they've been quietly getting better at a faster rate than main Core series improvements. From my current look around, it looks like Goldmont is actually the newest Atom that Intel sells in a real Intel NUC, and I was looking at ~$200 Celeron N5095 off-brand mini-PCs to get Tremont: https://www.cnx-software.com/2021/11/02/beelink-u59-review-windows-11-ubuntu-on-a-jasper-lake-mini-pc/. Gracemont SKUs aren't even announced, right? I'm tempted to wait for Gracemont, but given that Tremont NUCs aren't even here I'm sure it'll be at least a year. As far as pricing, I bought the i5-4250U NUC that I have for $140 on eBay 5 or 6 years ago, and I was figuring I'd just do the same again if I was getting a Core-based one. The Atom NUCs have always been super cheap new, right? I remember seeing the Silvermont or Airmont NUCs at Microcenter for $120 new. Linux on a Mac Mini sounds really interesting, but I want to give it some time to stabilize, I'd bet that they're still working through rough edges and I'm not wanting to need to janitor it just to keep services up and happy.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2021 05:37
|
|
|
People always forget the effect of older CPUs on minimum (0.1% and 1%) framerates. When I upgraded from 6700k to 5600X for my 4K gaming setup, my minimum framerates shot up colossally and I wasn't getting slowdowns or stutter anymore. Gameplay was significantly smoother and more consistent.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2021 05:55
|
|
|
Zedsdeadbaby posted:People always forget the effect of older CPUs on minimum (0.1% and 1%) framerates. When I upgraded from 6700k to 5600X for my 4K gaming setup, my minimum framerates shot up colossally and I wasn't getting slowdowns or stutter anymore. Gameplay was significantly smoother and more consistent.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2021 11:39
|
|
|
No one actually games in a benchmarking environment. In reality we've all got poo poo running and CPU matters a lot more than people like to pretend.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2021 11:49
|
|
|
Yes but the background load is pretty minimal, you're not running blender renders at the same time, are you E: came across this. I guess it scales like poo poo at the top like everything else but it would be more interesting to continue left. I think this was one of the improvements Intel was bragging about and would correspond to the 14k or whatever at 35w that we've seen elsewhere https://mobile.twitter.com/CapFrameX/status/1456244849477242881 mobby_6kl fucked around with this message at 13:15 on Nov 8, 2021 |
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2021 13:02
|
|
|
You probably have discord, whatsapp, steam and maybe even a torrent program running in the background of a typical gaming PC. And then there is poo poo like iCue and the like. Yes it's not a heavy load, but it's still occasional syscalls and interrupts that need to be serviced. And while it will not move the needle on the average fps, it will on the minimum fps metric, which was the GP's point. edit: holy poo poo iCue is worse than I thought. Beef fucked around with this message at 14:48 on Nov 8, 2021 |
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2021 14:43
|
|
|
The PC building thread recommends the Z590 for intel builds, but I couldn't get an answer if that's true even if I wouldn't be OCing the 11600k. Any thoughts? Though an increasingly loud whisper in my head is telling me to just treat myself to a 12600k, or wait for AMD's 2022 offering.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2021 14:51
|
|
|
Rinkles posted:The PC building thread recommends the Z590 for intel builds, but I couldn't get an answer if that's true even if I wouldn't be OCing the 11600k. Any thoughts? if you are getting an i5-11600K, and my post is not an endorsement of that decision: and you do not intend to overclock it, you might be able to save a few bucks by getting a B560 motherboard instead, provided that you check the reviews or the specs to be able to tell that the power delivery is good enough to let the thing run at max boost for as long as your cooling can take it (and keeping in mind that even some Z590s can have weak power delivery) and provided that it has enough I/O for what you need EDIT: There used to be an issue whereby memory tuning/overclocking was only allowed on a Z-model motherboard, but that is no longer a problem with 11th gen/Rocket Lake, and even the B- and H- model motherboards will allow you to tune your memory, if you wanted to. gradenko_2000 fucked around with this message at 15:25 on Nov 8, 2021 |
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2021 15:18
|
|
|
Beef posted:edit: holy poo poo iCue is worse than I thought. iCue is basically goatse but your system is the goatman and the entire internet is the horse cock that killed him. All RGB software is atrocious but iCue is special. And honestly the loads are more significant than you might think. Discord is node.js + Chromium, it can easily completely load a core or two even if that load is pretty transient. Same for just about anything else, the rule about software always bloating up to fully utilize hardware is true.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2021 15:25
|
|
|
iCue: 2.34 GB just to assign keybinds to my mouse. And turn off the RGB. Uninstalling it means you can't turn off the bright-rear end light on your mouse, just amazing engineering all-around. I'm this close to using electrical tape on a brand new mouse.
kliras fucked around with this message at 15:32 on Nov 8, 2021 |
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2021 15:28
|
|
|
at this point it would probably be quicker to list the newer software that isn't webshit running in chromium/electron
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2021 15:30
|
|
|
gradenko_2000 posted:if you are getting an i5-11600K, and my post is not an endorsement of that decision: Thanks. I'm just not sure how much I can justify spending on this pc. I was looking at the 11600k because of the $200 Microcenter sale.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2021 15:35
|
|
|
kliras posted:iCue: 2.34 GB just to assign keybinds to my mouse. And turn off the RGB. Uninstalling it means you can't turn off the bright-rear end light on your mouse, just amazing engineering all-around. I'm this close to using electrical tape on a brand new mouse. literally the only reason why I continue to begrudingly tolerate Logitech products despite that absolute knowledge that their mice will succumb to dying microswitches in under half a year: Once I set everything, I can uninstall their software.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2021 15:53
|
|
|
Beef posted:You probably have discord, whatsapp, steam and maybe even a torrent program running in the background of a typical gaming PC. And then there is poo poo like iCue and the like. If I wasn't such a giant nerd that I've bought a low-production run hyper-programmable (as in every single key has four layers, each can have up to 64 keystrokes with 15ms, 0.1s, and 0.5s intervals between presses) 60%-sized mechanical keyboard with cherry mx-clear switches and blank PBT keycaps with a steel base, I'd have thrown out any keyboard that had software as bad as iCue, just from what I've heard ITT. repiv posted:at this point it would probably be quicker to list the newer software that isn't webshit running in chromium/electron
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2021 19:37
|
|
|
yes that's what i meant when i set up a raspberry pi and they directed me to a 140mb electron app that performs the equivalent of the "dd" command i became fully jokerfied
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2021 19:48
|
|
|
K8.0 posted:iCue is basically goatse but your system is the goatman and the entire internet is the horse cock that killed him. Point of order: That was Mr. Hands who died of a horse cock; Kirk Johnson is an elusive figure but reportedly is still alive and well.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2021 23:22
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 28, 2024 02:53 |
|
|
Kazinsal posted:Point of order: That was Mr. Hands who died of a horse cock; Kirk Johnson is an elusive figure but reportedly is still alive and well. repiv posted:yes that's what i meant loving hell, you couldn't make it up.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2021 00:29
|
|
