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What was the official public reason for the Emperor giving Arakkis to the Atreides? Did he claim the Harkonnens weren't producing enough spice, or what?
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Nov 19, 2021 22:18
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Not in the movie but I believe it was touched on the books, when he and the emperor conceived the plan, Vladimir started publicly missing quotas squirrelling the extra away in his reserves
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Nov 19, 2021 22:46
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just saw again--did anyone else feel like the lead-up to the close encounter with the worm was originally intended to be silent? I really noticed some jarring ADR like "let me check my compass to make sure we go the right way" and "this is how you do the worm dance" that made me think they added it for the "dummies". e. also lol that they added a line about "drum sand". it's pretty clear why he panics after stepping on loud sand if you were paying any attention at all. Famethrowa fucked around with this message at 23:27 on Nov 19, 2021 |
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Nov 19, 2021 23:12
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Holy poo poo. The original story boards for Jodorowsky's failed adaptation are up for auction. https://hiconsumption.com/dune-storyboard-book-by-alejandro-jodorowsky/ I hope it includes rights for reprinting.
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Nov 19, 2021 23:27
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Dibs on the mass making GBS threads scene.
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Nov 19, 2021 23:34
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Famethrowa posted:just saw again--did anyone else feel like the lead-up to the close encounter with the worm was originally intended to be silent? I really noticed some jarring ADR like "let me check my compass to make sure we go the right way" and "this is how you do the worm dance" that made me think they added it for the "dummies". Best post itt: Failed Imagineer posted:Sound goes "boom", then he steps on it twice more and it goes "boom boom" and he says "drum sand". The viewer, knowing what both "drum" and "sand" mean individually, is invited to use abductive reasoning to explore the subtextual connection between the two
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Nov 19, 2021 23:47
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I think you guys are trying to have it both ways. Supposedly, any house that thinks it's strong enough can just try to take Arrakis at any time, and the Emperor has no authority to step in and say, "hey, this is the most important planet in the universe and I gave an order about who controls it, knock that poo poo off". The emperor, the guild, the bene gesserit, nobody has any problem with putting spice production at permanent risk? It's just open season on the planet 24/7. Strongest house gets the prize. This doesn't really square with what the film shows us. The Harkonnen have been in control of Arrakis for decades. Nobody has challenged them, except for the Fremen insurgents. When the emperor tells them to leave they leave. The signing over of the planet to the Atreides is a big ceremony with witnesses from all the major players, and formal documents are signed. There is a judge to oversee the change, which implies some kind of formal process or at least bookkeeping. The Atredies complain to the judge about things outside of the emperors betrayal, as if this should matter. They suspect a political trap, but not a military one, and are completely caught off guard when a military assault comes. Very little of this makes sense if it's widely known among the houses that Arrakis is a winner-takes-all planet that is always up for grabs. Why bother showing us any of this if none of it matters?
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Nov 20, 2021 03:42
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Read up on the history of the Holy Roman Empire, the Landsraad is specifically named after and based on them. They did poo poo like this all the time.
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Nov 20, 2021 03:51
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Xiahou Dun posted:Read up on the history of the Holy Roman Empire, the Landsraad is specifically named after and based on them. They did poo poo like this all the time. My argument isn't that this is something that wouldn't happen. History is full of completely boneheaded aristocrats doing stupid stuff and then getting annihilated. My argument is that this makes for a weird fit for the tone of the movie. If the Atreides are just the galaxy's biggest morons getting culled from the herd then so be it. Seems like an overly elaborate way to make an episode of punkd.
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Nov 20, 2021 04:09
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Sure, and my counter is whelp I guess reality has a weird tone. What were you expecting?
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Nov 20, 2021 04:13
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Xiahou Dun posted:Sure, and my counter is whelp I guess reality has a weird tone. What were you expecting? What does the tone of reality have to do with this? I didn't expect much from the movie, but I was hoping for some interesting ideas to chew over. I put pretty much all of what I found frustrating into the thread already. On politics specifically, as I said before, it would be nice to have the framework all the houses are operating in spelled out. Everyone in the thread seems to understand that houses can kill eachother whenever they want with no consequences, but I don't know where that comes from. You seem to be saying that this makes sense in the movie because sometimes things have worked like that in reality. I don't really know what to say to that. Sure? Sometimes when people try to annex another territory it throws the whole world into war instead. Why is your guess better than mine?
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Nov 20, 2021 04:32
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Because I watched the movie and that's what happened in it. Because the tone of the movie is the one established by the movie. It's the text we're talking about. I brought up reality cause I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you might be coming from another, misinformed perspective. The movie is about noble houses scheming in a covert stalemate as they struggle for power, which is what the movie shows. Because that's what the movie is.
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Nov 20, 2021 04:40
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Ej posted:If the Atreides are just the galaxy's biggest morons getting culled from the herd then so be it. Seems like an overly elaborate way to make an episode of punkd. My take: The Emperor isn’t particularly popular. Duke Leto is charismatic and has enough influence within the Landsraad to potentially overthrow the emperor. Dune is the single most important directorship on the CHOAM, and the emperor and baron basically reason that as long as the Landsraad maintain their CHOAM profits, they will probably recognize what happened on Dune, but won’t dare act on it. Leto takes the directorship because the potential profits are incredible. He knows it’s a trap, but believes that they can withstand a Harkonnen invasion. If the emperor hadn’t provided his Sardaukar forces, or if Yueh hadn’t been turned, this would probably have been true. It’s presumed that the empower and baron’s plan would have worked if Paul hadn’t lived, and the Fremen weren’t massively underestimated by the baron.
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Nov 20, 2021 04:41
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Arglebargle III posted:For those of you who haven't read it, Hyperion is organized like The Canterbury Tales and even calls attention to that arrangement in its chapter titles. The frame story is a bunch of "pilgrims" going to visit a semi-mythical time-traveling robot murder machine called The Shrike, each for reasons they would at first prefer to keep private. They tell each other stories about why they are going to the Shrike. This sounds really boss. I would like something like this. Dunc was good. I'd give it an 9/10. The imagination, setting, atmosphere, design, costumes, cast, effects, etc. were all excellent. Though it did feel clinical, imo...kind of too clean and crisp which I don't mind but I kind of feel like it deterred a bit. I hope the sequel is greenlit. EDIT: I really liked Rebecca Ferguson and Zendaya in this. Very striking. I even liked Timothee Chamalalalamae. I would give it another 0.5 if it was 6 hours long and dwelled in this setting, it makes it worth it to explore. Gatts fucked around with this message at 05:24 on Nov 20, 2021 |
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Nov 20, 2021 05:18
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Ej posted:What does the tone of reality have to do with this? The part I think you're missing is that the expense of space travel is a natural brake on the houses' ability to wage war on each other. What we see in the film is not business as usual. The Harkonnens spend a century's profits from the most lucrative cash cow in the galaxy to stage that attack and they're willing to do so because they expect to secure Arrakis indefinitely. It doesn't throw the rest of the houses into open warfare because that would be a logistical impossibility Tarnop fucked around with this message at 05:30 on Nov 20, 2021 |
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Nov 20, 2021 05:28
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The movie was not that hard to follow. I haven't read the books nor really seen the first properly but I could follow this and appreciate the ambiguity and see how the visions can not be taken as literal in addition it does enough to feed you what's going on and spell it out.
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Nov 20, 2021 05:35
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I would just like a little extra time on Arrakis between the arrival from Caladan and the attack. A little more Duncan and Yueh, so their deaths have a little more weight, and maybe 24-35 more minutes with the Sardaukar throat singer. 
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Nov 20, 2021 05:43
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Xiahou Dun posted:Because I watched the movie and that's what happened in it. Because the tone of the movie is the one established by the movie. It's the text we're talking about. ??? It's hard to make out anything from this, and I'm not even sure what point you're making. I don't disagree at all that there are nobles scheming and struggling for power in the movie. TheMadMilkman posted:My take: Thank you for actually engaging with me. It seems like a plausible explanation. And also one that could blow up spectacularly in the Emperors face, even without Paul surviving and the Fremen being Fremen. I can't imagine the spice trade went smoothly through all of this, and the Harkonnen are gonna be keen to recoup their losses. But a Landsraad riot probably won't happen if they stick with the story laid out in the books, so my guess will be that something like this is offered as explanation, if any explanation is offered at all. Tarnop posted:The part I think you're missing is that the expense of space travel is a natural brake on the houses' ability to wage war on each other. What we see in the film is not business as usual. The Harkonnens spend a century's profits from the most lucrative cash cow in the galaxy to stage that attack and they're willing to do so because they expect to secure Arrakis indefinitely. It doesn't throw the rest of the houses into open warfare because that would be a logistical impossibility And thank you too. I do agree that what happens in the movie is not business as usual. But I don't think the movie really makes the case that conventional warfare is a logistical impossibility. The Atreides have ships to fight with, theoretically to defend against an attack or make one themselves. They have soldiers and weapons and pretty much all the trappings of warfare for a modern sci-fi state. They claim to have held Caladan with Air Power and Sea Power. Was this just against the locals? That doesn't really wash, the Atreides seem more like the type to try and lead peacefully if possible. It feels to me like war is something that does happen in the movie universe, it's just rarer, and especially rarer on Arrakis.
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Nov 20, 2021 06:00
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Ej posted:I think you guys are trying to have it both ways. Supposedly, any house that thinks it's strong enough can just try to take Arrakis at any time, and the Emperor has no authority to step in and say, "hey, this is the most important planet in the universe and I gave an order about who controls it, knock that poo poo off". The emperor, the guild, the bene gesserit, nobody has any problem with putting spice production at permanent risk? It's just open season on the planet 24/7. Strongest house gets the prize. We don't actually know that nobody has challenged the Harkonnens, just that if anyone has challenged them they've failed. The Harkonnens have been in charge of Arrakis for 80 years, but spice has been around a lot longer than that(this is from the books rather than the movie, but the setting's calendar is based on the founding of the Spacing Guild, who use spice for space travel, over ten thousand years ago). It's not unlikely they took control of the planet from someone else, who took it from someone else before them. Other houses could invade Arrakis and try to take it for themselves, but they'd risk both losing the fight itself and political consequences if they win- invading the planet would disrupt the flow of spice, which the Space Guild wouldn't look kindly on. The emperor might decide that inter-house conflict needs to be stamped out by his legions of Sardaukar warriors. Also Arrakis sucks rear end and nobody in their right mind would want to live there
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Nov 20, 2021 06:24
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Ej posted:And thank you too. I do agree that what happens in the movie is not business as usual. But I don't think the movie really makes the case that conventional warfare is a logistical impossibility. The Atreides have ships to fight with, theoretically to defend against an attack or make one themselves. They have soldiers and weapons and pretty much all the trappings of warfare for a modern sci-fi state. They claim to have held Caladan with Air Power and Sea Power. Was this just against the locals? That doesn't really wash, the Atreides seem more like the type to try and lead peacefully if possible. It feels to me like war is something that does happen in the movie universe, it's just rarer, and especially rarer on Arrakis. The opening scene of the film tells you how expensive long distance space travel is. I'm forgetting the specifics but I'm pretty sure there's a scene with Rabban and the Baron that talks about the cost of the invasion, and we know that the Harkonnens are the richest house by a significant margin. It costs a hundred years of profits from a planet that produces the most valuable commodity in the empire to take out one house, and we know that the Emperor was worried about their military and economic might because that's why he manoeuvred them into burning a chunk of it to retake Arrakis. The pieces are there to assemble the big picture. The Atreides are the popular house. The Harkonnens are the money house. If one massive invasion costs the money house most of their money, then it must not be something the other houses can do. This is reinforced by the emphasis on individual soldiers being renowned across the galaxy, and hand to hand combat. Duncan Idaho is a big deal because inter-house fighting is limited to dropping the equivalent of a unit of Seals onto a high value target. The Atreides do have a fleet of ships, and my assumption from watching the film and some very old memories of the books is that they need to be able to project force within the range of non-Guild travel. It's also worth bearing in mind that there was a time when interstellar travel didn't need the Guild and its navigators. Would you want to be the house caught with its pants down if mass interstellar travel became economically feasible again? Powers in a cold war amass military might even when the current situation makes it unfeasible to use it all, because situations change.
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Nov 20, 2021 06:32
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2house2fly posted:We don't actually know that nobody has challenged the Harkonnens, just that if anyone has challenged them they've failed. The Harkonnens have been in charge of Arrakis for 80 years, but spice has been around a lot longer than that(this is from the books rather than the movie, but the setting's calendar is based on the founding of the Spacing Guild, who use spice for space travel, over ten thousand years ago). It's not unlikely they took control of the planet from someone else, who took it from someone else before them. The first point I can grant, we don't actually know if the Harkonnens had a bunch of fights with people or not. As for who they took it from, I think it's fair to guess that at least SOME of the transitions were peaceful. They have a whole process for turning over the planet, so it's reasonable to assume it gets used some of the time. As for the rest, yes I pretty much agree (except for nobody wanting to live on Arrakis, the world is literally made of money). The risk of disruption to the spice trade would be an excellent reason that the emperor would want to have a formal process in place for Arrakis, rather than just let anyone come at it willy nilly. And this process is exactly what the movie shows us. If he DOESN'T think the Harkonnen invasion merits any reprisal that would be a huge red flag that he approved of the outcome. And since he set the whole thing in motion in the first place, the he would de-facto have had an active hand in eradicating an up-and-coming house. Either the emperor has something else going to keep the Landsraad in line, or this is just a reaaaaaaaly bad plan.
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Nov 20, 2021 07:00
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Tarnop posted:The opening scene of the film tells you how expensive long distance space travel is. I'm forgetting the specifics but I'm pretty sure there's a scene with Rabban and the Baron that talks about the cost of the invasion, and we know that the Harkonnens are the richest house by a significant margin. It costs a hundred years of profits from a planet that produces the most valuable commodity in the empire to take out one house, and we know that the Emperor was worried about their military and economic might because that's why he manoeuvred them into burning a chunk of it to retake Arrakis. I think a lot of your info is coming from somewhere other than the movie. We get some hard figures for the imperial herald's trip (in the millions I think) and we get a summary of the harkonnens yearly income from Thufir (in the billions I think). Other than that the only thing we know is that the invasion cost "A lot". The Baron tells Raban to begin selling their spice reserves, so ya it seems like they blew through all their liquid cash, but it's never stated exactly how much this is in respect to their income on Arrakis, or how much of the cost was hiring the sardaukar vs traveling. He also tells Raban to sell their reserves slowly, which implies they aren't in a critical place financially. I agree that the cost of travel makes invasions with armies rare and difficult, but I don't think the movie tells us that it's out of reach of the other houses. But even if I did grant that, it doesn't answer the question of why the Atreides were so shocked by the Harkonnen attack. They are, like you said, "The Rich House". If anyone can afford to do it, they could. In fact, the Atreides are explicitly shown learning exactly how much money the Harkonnen were making. Thufir should have been able to calculate exactly how much force they could project.
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Nov 20, 2021 07:12
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Leto was expecting the Harkonnens to throw a huge force at him to retake Arrakis. What surprised him was how quickly it happened, and the type of attack. A bombardment would have failed if Yueh hadn't brought down the shield wall ( I did think that the film could have done more to emphasise just how effective the shield wall would have been had it remained in place). He was expecting to make an alliance with the Fremen and repel them that way, which suggests that he anticipated a ground invasion (makes sense if he thought the shield wall would stay up) and a siege, giving Duncan time to get the Fremen onside.
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Nov 20, 2021 07:25
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The bombing attack is one of the things that I really didn’t like about the movie. The novel paints a world where atomics are banned and shields have made lasguns fairly impractical because they cause a nuclear explosion. I always read the attack as a quick, quiet invasion. Most of the people in the palace escape to caves and then get killed by mortar shots that collapse the caves, but would have been worthless if a shield could have been in place. There are a lot of troops involved, but it always read to me as a ground attack. Basically, Herbert crafted a world where house disputes are handled by elite forces infiltrating other planets, politicians sending people under cover to poison or assassinate each other, or by direct dueling. Even the Fremen battles against the Sardaukar tend to be fairly small skirmishes. There is a massive invasion of the Sietch at the end, and the Fremen attack to reach the emperor, but by that point Herbert is rushing to finish the book and the warfare is very poorly described. But I seem to recall that it largely devolves into hand to hand combat.
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Nov 20, 2021 07:28
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Ej posted:I agree that the cost of travel makes invasions with armies rare and difficult, but I don't think the movie tells us that it's out of reach of the other houses. You're right that the movie doesn't tell us this explicitly, but I think it trusts the viewer to join the dots. Why don't the other houses get involved -> large scale interstellar travel is hugely expensive -> the house that does a large scale assault has been established as having so much money that they (and not the other houses) specifically threaten the emperor. I like the ambiguity, and the feeling that there are other powers out there that maybe could get involved but either can't afford it right now or are biding their time and letting two major powers weaken each other. The houses know a lot about one another's capabilities but there are gaps as we see in the movie. I understand if that ambiguity is not to everyone's taste.
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Nov 20, 2021 07:40
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Tarnop posted:Leto was expecting the Harkonnens to throw a huge force at him to retake Arrakis. What surprised him was how quickly it happened, and the type of attack. A bombardment would have failed if Yueh hadn't brought down the shield wall ( I did think that the film could have done more to emphasise just how effective the shield wall would have been had it remained in place). He was expecting to make an alliance with the Fremen and repel them that way, which suggests that he anticipated a ground invasion (makes sense if he thought the shield wall would stay up) and a siege, giving Duncan time to get the Fremen onside. I agree about the alliance the the Duke wanted, but where do you get that he expected an actual assault? Jessica tells him that he is out of time, and he doesn't do anything to prepare for a ground assault, or any assault at all. I definitely grant that he expected something, but I think the movie shows that he was focused on political maneuvers, spies, assassinations, that sort of thing. Maybe he did just rely entirely on the shield wall to keep them safe from everything, but that seems a bit out of character for someone who's house specializes in Air Power. I know he wanted to harness Desert Power eventually, but he didn't have any of that on the night Jessica told him it was all about to go down. I would have thought that he would try to utilize what he had and what he knew, if he suspected an actual invasion. Edit: Tarnop posted:You're right that the movie doesn't tell us this explicitly, but I think it trusts the viewer to join the dots. Why don't the other houses get involved -> large scale interstellar travel is hugely expensive -> the house that does a large scale assault has been established as having so much money that they (and not the other houses) specifically threaten the emperor. To each their own I guess. I'll admit that for me it's too much. I feel like the emperor and the Atreides are in a superposition where one or the other is an idiot, and there's no way to tell with what we have. It's schrodingers politics for me. Ej fucked around with this message at 07:56 on Nov 20, 2021 |
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Nov 20, 2021 07:49
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I think one think Dunc skimmed over was the extent of the Harkonnen sabotage and how much trouble it was causing the Atreides to clear it out. I think that would make it clearer that when Leto talks about expecting a trap he is largely expecting sabotage, assassination and insurgency. The kind of things that happen when you try to control territory that's been ruled by your bitterest enemy for decades. And all those things happen prior to the big attack. The film did provide enough context for me as to why he wasn't expecting an all assault like a week after he arrived. It's extremely expensive and even with Harkonnen resources you need Sardaukar to make it a sure thing. Leto knew the Emperor was setting him up to get shanked but not that the Emperor would be doing the shanking. As for how the Emperor is going to explain it after the fact whatever, houses go to war sometimes. Everyone will know he okayed it, and that the guild were cool with it too, but so long as there is plausible deniability and the spice keeps flowing why would anyone volunteer to be the next house to get Sardaukared. I dunno, I think the characters all make understandable decisions based on their knowledge of the situation. And when it's incorrect it's incorrect for plausible reasons.
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Nov 20, 2021 09:33
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Paddyo posted:After watching the movie I re-read the book. I really feel like they missed a natural script que by not ending the film with Jamis's funeral and the Muad'Dib naming ceremony. That's going to feel super weird coming at the start of Part 2. Also, I wish that they had included the Arakeen dinner party scene in the film. That was such a fun little set piece, and does a lot to flesh out the setting and the plot. This was the original plan, looks like they changed it for budget/time/not short changing the sietch when it arrives reasons
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Nov 20, 2021 09:35
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HONK OH NO HONK TROMBONE SAND
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Nov 20, 2021 11:39
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Xiahou Dun posted:Read up on the history of the Holy Roman Empire, the Landsraad is specifically named after and based on them. They did poo poo like this all the time. But Landsraad is a Dutch word (and not even a properly spelled one at that) Then again we also have Piter de Vries over here, the most Dutch sounding name I have ever seen in a scifi setting.
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Nov 20, 2021 11:44
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Steve Yun posted:HONK Paul attracting worms because he keeps intentionally stepping on Sex Noise Sand
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Nov 20, 2021 13:23
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Arglebargle III posted:For those of you who haven't read it, Hyperion is organized like The Canterbury Tales and even calls attention to that arrangement in its chapter titles. The frame story is a bunch of "pilgrims" going to visit a semi-mythical time-traveling robot murder machine called The Shrike, each for reasons they would at first prefer to keep private. They tell each other stories about why they are going to the Shrike. Hyperion is a crazy awesome book. As good as Dune, imo.
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Nov 20, 2021 16:02
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DeafNote posted:But Landsraad is a Dutch word (and not even a properly spelled one at that) Literally: council of/for the land. As it's used: county council.
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Nov 20, 2021 16:36
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I thought they did a good enough job of showing the sabotage. The characters mention it a couple of times in dialogue and there are big visual cues, like going from Cthulhu harvesters to playing Deserts of Kharak.
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Nov 20, 2021 16:42
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Random Integer posted:The film did provide enough context for me as to why he wasn't expecting an all assault like a week after he arrived. It's extremely expensive and even with Harkonnen resources you need Sardaukar to make it a sure thing. Leto knew the Emperor was setting him up to get shanked but not that the Emperor would be doing the shanking. Yeah, one factor I missed in my previous posts was that the Atreides infantry are now trained to be almost 1:1 against Sardaukar thanks to Duncan and Gurney. So Leto has prepared for fighting a ground war against the Harkonnen forces simply by virtue of preparing to defend against the main avenue that the emperor has for crushing him for daring to gather too much political influence. Leto's undoing is not expecting his enemies to attack him using every possible angle all at once, and even then I don't know if expecting it would have been enough. They isolate him from his allies, drop him in an unfamiliar and hostile environment, place immense political burdens on his shoulders, turn a (supposedly incorruptible) member of his inner circle against him, attack with overwhelming air force and some of the most deadly elite infantry in the galaxy. I genuinely don't think he had a viable defense without time to bring the Fremen in as allies.
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Nov 20, 2021 18:25
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Steve Yun posted:HONK lol
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Nov 20, 2021 18:51
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The movie makes clear that Leto is aware of the trap, but the books make clear that Leto is aware he's taking a massive gamble and that the house may be destroyed. Defying the Emperor's edict was just as desperate a move as going to Arrakis. Either he would bribe the Guild to take the family into outlawry and spend the rest of his life as the leader of an army on the run, or he would go to Arrakis and try to survive the trap. Arrakis was the better choice. In a scene in private with Paul, Leto explains this decision in some more detail. I hope they shot this scene. In the movie Leto is putting on a brave face for everyone, even as he talks about how dangerous their position is. Leto is aware that their position is very bad indeed. It's just that defying the Emperor was exactly as dangerous and had none of the potential upside. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Nov 20, 2021 |
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Nov 20, 2021 19:04
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I'm rereading the book and yeah right from the outset Leto knows the emperor is directly acting against him, and even predicts that when the Harkonnens attack they'll have Sardaukar wearing their uniforms. Much more than either movie, the book leans into the theme of prescience by outright telling you exactly how all this is going to turn out. The Reverend Mother says Leto is doomed, and there are excerpts from memoirs of the time talking about how Leto died, and Leto himself is futilely trying to escape the trap he knows he's in. I also love that in the opening chapters it's directly stated that Yueh is the traitor, and then throughout the book the Atreides are discussing possible traitors in their midst and always immediately after are like "anyway, Paul, go get Dr Yueh to give you some sleeping drugs"
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Nov 20, 2021 19:21
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Odd that one of the trailers had Mohaim telling Paul "your father is losing this planet and he'll lose Arrakis too" but it was cut from the theatrical release.
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Nov 20, 2021 19:43
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I was surprised "for the father, nothing" wasn't in there. That's always struck me as one of the more iconic Dune quotes to keep verbatim, up there with the litany.
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Nov 20, 2021 21:13
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