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DeimosRising posted:Why would they need to prove anything? Prove it to who? There’s not some kind of judiciary body with powers over the emperor or checks and balances. The whole thing is that if the Houses think the emperor might use his powers to attack the aristocracy, he’d lose the support of the aristocracy. They don’t have to sue him to see the writing on the wall right...the emperor hosed up, there are witnesses alive who can testify to his direct involvement (much differently clearly then his tacit approval) which is yet to have consequences but will soon. it isn't exactly an uncommon trope in movies to have a very powerful character act out of hubris. given a major theme of the movie is the failure of prophecy and foresight this is fitting. the possibility he just opened up with his hubris is general rebellion against his rule, and he better hope that other houses are loyal still.
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Nov 23, 2021 00:46
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DeimosRising posted:Why would they need to prove anything? Prove it to who? There’s not some kind of judiciary body with powers over the emperor or checks and balances. The whole thing is that if the Houses think the emperor might use his powers to attack the aristocracy, he’d lose the support of the aristocracy. They don’t have to sue him to see the writing on the wall The Landsraad has a high council to whom the emperor is answerable. This isn't brought up specifically in the film and it doesn't actually matter because, as I and other people have been saying, you can deduce that there is an element of the Landsraad that might accept proof of Sardaukar involvement, which would be bad for the emperor, because the characters talk about Kynes testifying being important and that it would be bad for the emperor: quote:Kynes! quote:Would you bear witness?
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Nov 23, 2021 01:23
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Famethrowa posted:right...the emperor hosed up, there are witnesses alive who can testify to his direct involvement (much differently clearly then his tacit approval) which is yet to have consequences but will soon. it isn't exactly an uncommon trope in movies to have a very powerful character act out of hubris. given a major theme of the movie is the failure of prophecy and foresight this is fitting. Yeah like I said, it’s about a lot of really dumb people doing politics, but it’s also not funny. My problem with the movie (and the book) is it’s neither camp, nor politically savvy. I find that really boring. It’s libertarian musings about the inherent corruption of systems of government
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Nov 23, 2021 01:37
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DeimosRising posted:Yeah like I said, it’s about a lot of really dumb people doing politics, but it’s also not funny. My problem with the movie (and the book) is it’s neither camp, nor politically savvy. I find that really boring. It’s libertarian musings about the inherent corruption of systems of government but it's directly reflecting feudalism so it's not exactly making anything up.... feudalism was often dumb.
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Nov 23, 2021 01:49
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DeimosRising posted:It’s libertarian musings about the inherent corruption of systems of government
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Nov 23, 2021 01:51
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DeimosRising posted:I believe ej's point is that it IS obvious the emperor isn't supposed to do this, and also it's obvious that he did. if the plan was to keep it a secret, it was a terrible plan. the movie gives you no reason to think the emperor and to some degree, by association, the harkonnens, aren't really loving dumb. Unless the threat of all the other houses banding together ISN'T a serious one, in which case what the gently caress is even going on It's not obvious that the emperor did it. The only obvious tell is the Sardaukar, and anyone who knows that Sardaukar were there was killed by them
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Nov 23, 2021 03:50
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Basically, small scale wars between noble houses are an accepted and legal part of the feudal system. The Emperor can obliterate any one of them, due the strength of the Sardaukar, but collectively the houses are able to match him, which means that being picked off one by one is their nightmare scenario. What the Emperor's plot is supposed to accomplish is make the suppression of the Atreides look like an unusually bloody inter-house war (which is plausible; the Harkonnens are famously wealthy, ruthless, and have a long-standing grudge against the Atreides) where the Emperor had his thumb on the scales, in a way that could potentially be mistaken for a gift gone wrong (at least enough to disrupt any sort of collective response of the Landsraad), as opposed to the Emperor sending in his Sardaukar to wipe out a popular house. I suppose the question then is why the Landsraad would allow the Emperor to use that sort of influence against them, but given that he has the Sardaukar at his beck and call, trying to completely lock him out of political influence wouldn't end well for anyone. They do need the Emperor's consent for a stable political settlement.
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Nov 23, 2021 04:15
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2house2fly posted:It's not obvious that the emperor did it. The only obvious tell is the Sardaukar, and anyone who knows that Sardaukar were there was killed by them The Sardaukar being involved is obvious enough that the Atreides take it as given before the attack. But that was in the book though, and I don't right now remember it from the film. Maybe they took it out (for the better).
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Nov 23, 2021 05:56
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We don't really see in the film or in the book how the Landsraad works, but one thing with the Emperor having a veneer of deniability over the Arrakis affair is that it gives an out to Houses on the fence about raising the issue. Which in real history and real politics is definitively a thing, extrapolating from what we see in the movie and what's in the book, calling out the Emperor on having wiped out a House is a bigass crisis moment and being able to point at another explanation is very handy if you'd prefer not to take part in what would be at best a constitutional crisis and at worst a civil war.
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Nov 23, 2021 11:21
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One fairly major factor that shouldn't be underestimated is that pretty much every single noble house has a vested direct economical interest in the status quo. Every single container of spice gathered and exported off of Arrakis makes them a fabulous amount of money. The moment that status quo between them and the Emperor begins to crumble all that money could dry up in a moment, even before things deteriorate into an outright war or coup. So a lot of houses might be quite content to look the other way until actual hard evidence stares them in the face.
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Nov 23, 2021 14:19
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There's a bit in the book on Caladan where Leto reveals that some houses have started hording spice - as if they know the price is about to skyrocket because supply is going to be interrupted. The implication is that those houses are 'in the know' about the Emperor's trap to a degree, and that the Landsraad has broadly split between Atreides and Corrino factions. So everyone is aware in some way of the shadow boxing going on, but just like in real life there's thresholds under which nobody calls it out publicly because that would mean an escalation to open war nobody wants.
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Nov 23, 2021 14:36
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I don't see how the Emperor even has the veneer of deniability given that the attack is an outright violation of an Imperial decree. Either the attack is done with the Emperor's blessing, or nobody but the House of Atreides gives a poo poo what the Emperor has to say.
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Nov 23, 2021 15:51
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Simplex posted:I don't see how the Emperor even has the veneer of deniability given that the attack is an outright violation of an Imperial decree. Either the attack is done with the Emperor's blessing, or nobody but the House of Atreides gives a poo poo what the Emperor has to say. Again its perfectly legal for Feudal vassals to war amongst themselves in both the Dune universe and real world Feudalism
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Nov 23, 2021 16:16
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Everyone in dune universe communicates through slow in person messengers and cameras/recordings do seem to exist but there is no apparent culture of anyone recording things or most places having security cameras or anything, so as long as you are on a far away planet you can basically do anything then say "nuh uh, that didn't happen" then everyone just has to go 'welp, no way to know I guess!"
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Nov 23, 2021 16:18
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Everyone in dune universe communicates through slow in person messengers and cameras/recordings do seem to exist but there is no apparent culture of anyone recording things or most places having security cameras or anything, so as long as you are on a far away planet you can basically do anything then say "nuh uh, that didn't happen" then everyone just has to go 'welp, no way to know I guess!" Nope because there are things called Truthsayers who are human lie detectors.
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Nov 23, 2021 16:21
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Alchenar posted:Nope because there are things called Truthsayers who are human lie detectors. Yeah but they're dumbasses as we learn in the first book when Jessica is aware of all this poo poo about to go down and is aware that Yueh is hiding something from her but doesn't push it further because decorum. AnEdgelord posted:Again its perfectly legal for Feudal vassals to war amongst themselves in both the Dune universe and real world Feudalism Yeah like someone earlier posted the plan is that it appears as just a particularly bloody inter-house war that the rest of the Landsraad, I mean they probably aren't THRILLED about it but what are ya gonna do, the spice must flow and everyone knows the Atreides and Harkonnen despise each other so this was inevitable. At least the Emperor sent some Sardaukar in to make sure things get in order fast and the spice keeps flowing. If someone who has read the book more recently can maybe answer though, IIRC there was some limitation to what the Sardaukar could do and how brazen they could be in their assistance to the Harkonnens to help keep that veneer up. Wasn't there a brief conversation between the Baron and Rabban where even Rabban is like hey does the Emperor know that you had the Sardaukar do x/y/z and even the Baron internally is like poo poo Rabban kind of does know what he's doing and talking about and might not be just an angry moron? Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 17:05 on Nov 23, 2021 |
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Nov 23, 2021 17:00
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Alchenar posted:There's a bit in the book on Caladan where Leto reveals that some houses have started hording spice - as if they know the price is about to skyrocket because supply is going to be interrupted. The implication is that those houses are 'in the know' about the Emperor's trap to a degree, and that the Landsraad has broadly split between Atreides and Corrino factions. So everyone is aware in some way of the shadow boxing going on, but just like in real life there's thresholds under which nobody calls it out publicly because that would mean an escalation to open war nobody wants. Kemper Boyd posted:We don't really see in the film or in the book how the Landsraad works, but one thing with the Emperor having a veneer of deniability over the Arrakis affair is that it gives an out to Houses on the fence about raising the issue. Which in real history and real politics is definitively a thing, extrapolating from what we see in the movie and what's in the book, calling out the Emperor on having wiped out a House is a bigass crisis moment and being able to point at another explanation is very handy if you'd prefer not to take part in what would be at best a constitutional crisis and at worst a civil war. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Nov 23, 2021 |
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Nov 23, 2021 18:00
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Yeah the film does leave out all the "kanly" stuff, which is the formal declarations of feud and vendetta that Houses have to make when warring, and there are rules attached like not being able to use atomics, etc. A bit like casus belli in ye olden times. The movie instead largely emphasizes the Harkonnens being angry over/wanting to take back Arrakis so they can keep making money. (Which is a decent enough way of simplifying things.) In any case, at the time Chapter One ends, all this has just happened. The Landsraad doesn't even know yet and there's no indication that they'll ever know the full story. Chapter Two will have to have some acknowledgement of the larger political picture but it's not clear how they'll handle it.
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Nov 23, 2021 18:14
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Maxwell Lord posted:Yeah the film does leave out all the "kanly" stuff, which is the formal declarations of feud and vendetta that Houses have to make when warring, and there are rules attached like not being able to use atomics, etc. A bit like casus belli in ye olden times. The movie instead largely emphasizes the Harkonnens being angry over/wanting to take back Arrakis so they can keep making money. (Which is a decent enough way of simplifying things.) Villeneuve said he's excited to have gotten all of the setting and world building stuff out of the way so he can do a movie that's just all action so while I'm mega hype to see it I'm not expecting that to go any deeper than the first movie.
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Nov 23, 2021 18:48
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Neo Rasa posted:Villeneuve said he's excited to have gotten all of the setting and world building stuff out of the way so he can do a movie that's just all action so while I'm mega hype to see it I'm not expecting that to go any deeper than the first movie. and it really, really, really shouldn't go deeper then DRUM SANDS
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Nov 23, 2021 20:07
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Alchenar posted:Nope because there are things called Truthsayers who are human lie detectors. They exist, like recording exist, but like 99% of what everyone is doing in dune is sneaking around doing stuff, There is a large element that as long as you do stuff kinda out of the way no one will ever know or care how it happened.
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Nov 23, 2021 21:15
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Hopefully DUN2 starts with the Emperor watching a projector film that explains drum sand and also that the Harkonnens have re-claimed Arrakis having won kanly.
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Nov 23, 2021 21:48
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I want a post credit scene--just whoever plays Irulan reading entries from the appendices.
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Nov 23, 2021 21:58
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|2UNC
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Nov 23, 2021 22:09
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PeterWeller posted:I want a Very same it would be rad having all my questions answered like that
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Nov 24, 2021 00:10
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Explainer of Dune
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Nov 24, 2021 00:11
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sebmojo posted:Explainer of Dune Dunesplainer
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Nov 24, 2021 00:18
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Alchenar posted:There's a bit in the book on Caladan where Leto reveals that some houses have started hording spice - as if they know the price is about to skyrocket because supply is going to be interrupted. The implication is that those houses are 'in the know' about the Emperor's trap to a degree, and that the Landsraad has broadly split between Atreides and Corrino factions. So everyone is aware in some way of the shadow boxing going on, but just like in real life there's thresholds under which nobody calls it out publicly because that would mean an escalation to open war nobody wants. Well that's going a bit far, it's public knowledge that control of Arrakis is about to change hands. That alone is reason to hedge. I agree that the modern audience doesn't really need priming. This is an old oligarchic political system in which rules are negotiable. We understand it perfectly. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 01:34 on Nov 24, 2021 |
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Nov 24, 2021 01:31
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AnEdgelord posted:Again its perfectly legal for Feudal vassals to war amongst themselves in both the Dune universe and real world Feudalism If the movie was depicting Feudalism rather than a Roman/Byzantine political system then maybe. In this system the nobility would expect some warfare and murder between houses, but the Harkonnens retaking Arrakis is a direct challenge to the authority of the Emperor. It only happens with the blessing of the Emperor, or if the Emperor is weak.
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Nov 24, 2021 15:37
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Arglebargle III posted:Well that's going a bit far, it's public knowledge that control of Arrakis is about to change hands. That alone is reason to hedge. No the conversation in the book is Leto explicitly explaining that he and Thufir are watching the other houses to see who smokes themselves out as an ally or opponent.
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Nov 24, 2021 15:47
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Simplex posted:If the movie was depicting Feudalism rather than a Roman/Byzantine political system then maybe. In this system the nobility would expect some warfare and murder between houses, but the Harkonnens retaking Arrakis is a direct challenge to the authority of the Emperor. It only happens with the blessing of the Emperor, or if the Emperor is weak. But from the emperor's perspective, being perceived as relatively weak in the eyes of noble houses suits his ends just fine. His goal is to off the upstart Atreides without his involvement being known. "The Harkonnens did it and I couldn't stop them" accomplishes this just fine, and has the bonus effect of potentially pitting many other houses against the Baron.
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Nov 24, 2021 15:52
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Simplex posted:If the movie was depicting Feudalism rather than a Roman/Byzantine political system then maybe. In this system the nobility would expect some warfare and murder between houses, but the Harkonnens retaking Arrakis is a direct challenge to the authority of the Emperor. It only happens with the blessing of the Emperor, or if the Emperor is weak. Sure, but Arrakis isn't just any planet: it's Spice World. The Emperor can act like a Saturday night diva about how the Harkonnens making the Atreides move over is too much, but he can't outright make them stop now that they're there- if he did do it, the interruption in production would mean denying the rest of the galaxy the chance to spice up their life, and since the noble houses- and the spacing guild, for that matter- want to never give up on the good times, they'd all have it out for him. That's how an outsider in the setting would see it anyway, so they could see how it would make sense for the emperor to seemingly just shrug and tell the Harkonnens "viva forever"
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Nov 24, 2021 15:53
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The sense I got from watching the movie(and I have no knowledge of the books) was that the transfer of the planet to Atreides was an official ceremonial act that the Harkonnens had to play along with because of tradition. But once that was done, it was on Atreides to protect their interests there and it wasn't considered the Emperor's role to help them with that. If they couldn't prevent the Harkonnens from taking it back, well that's their own fault.
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Nov 24, 2021 15:58
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Star Wars being a rip off of Dune is kind of detrimental to people easily being able to understand the politics of an "Emperor" in the later thanks to most of pop culture being familiar now with the former. I'm sure most people who have not read the book think of some sort of absolute dictator (and old crone who is an evil sorcerer) when they think of a sci-fi emperor now. Dune's emperor was more of one leg of a wobbly system that somehow has stayed together for ten thousand years due to stagnation before some drug addicted teenager lead a bunch of noble savages to topple everything, for better or worse. Oops I meant "for worse or worser" in the short term at least. edit - it's weird to remember that the original Emperor in "Star Wars" (ie: when it was just one movie) was supposed to be an old out of touch man being used by his military. It's why Tarkin had such absolute control of the Death Star and such. jeeves fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Nov 24, 2021 |
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Nov 24, 2021 16:08
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Simplex posted:If the movie was depicting Feudalism rather than a Roman/Byzantine political system then maybe. In this system the nobility would expect some warfare and murder between houses, but the Harkonnens retaking Arrakis is a direct challenge to the authority of the Emperor. It only happens with the blessing of the Emperor, or if the Emperor is weak. Where are you getting a Roman/Byzantine influence? It’s explicitly modeled after the Holy Roman Empire (weak, selected/elected emperor administering over a council of squabbling noble houses called the Landsraad lol), and this is exactly the kind of poo poo that happened there. The Emperor was more powerful than any other individual, sure, but we’re not talking absolutism.
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Nov 24, 2021 17:29
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2house2fly posted:Sure, but Arrakis isn't just any planet: it's Spice World. The Emperor can act like a Saturday night diva about how the Harkonnens making the Atreides move over is too much, but he can't outright make them stop now that they're there- if he did do it, the interruption in production would mean denying the rest of the galaxy the chance to spice up their life, and since the noble houses- and the spacing guild, for that matter- want to never give up on the good times, they'd all have it out for him. That's how an outsider in the setting would see it anyway, so they could see how it would make sense for the emperor to seemingly just shrug and tell the Harkonnens "viva forever" If so, how did he make them leave in the first place?
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Nov 24, 2021 18:22
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Simplex posted:If the movie was depicting Feudalism rather than a Roman/Byzantine political system then maybe. It is not depicting a Roman/Byzantine system at all though. Its the HRE in space.
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Nov 24, 2021 19:28
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Crespolini posted:If so, how did he make them leave in the first place? Because they were just as eager to lure House Atreides into a trap. Vladimir Harkonnen was in on it from the beginning. Duke Leto (and presumably anyone else paying attention) was aware of the obvious nature of the trap, but he walked into it for 3 reasons - The temptation of being put in charge of the most critical resource in the galaxy and the potential profits, his confidence in House Atreides' intelligence network and martial strength (his troops under Halleck and Idaho are reputed to be comparable to the Sardaukar, which was previously unthinkable), and an unwillingness to openly defy an imperial order at the time. He failed to predict the the extreme measures and cost that House Harkonnen were willing to invest in their destruction. He fully expected a campaign of protracted sabotage and economic warfare, not spending the galactic equivalent of 50 years worth of GDP on an immediate full-scale military invasion, especially not one bolstered by Sardaukar. McKilligan fucked around with this message at 06:27 on Nov 25, 2021 |
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Nov 25, 2021 05:44
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McKilligan posted:Because they were just as eager to lure House Atreides into a trap. Vladimir Harkonnen was in on it from the beginning. No, really? 
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Nov 25, 2021 05:52
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Crespolini posted:No, really? You did ask lol
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Nov 25, 2021 06:01
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