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eSporks posted:So many childhood stories told through completely rose colored glasses because the truth is too hard to confront. This seems to be a thing that pops up a lot in these discussions and on the issendai website - parents who vehemently avoid discussing their actions during past events that paint them in a negative light. Every time my mum made some comment about why our relationship was distant and that she wanted us to be closer, I'd try to raise with her some of the reasons that I didn't trust her, she'd accuse me of being stuck in the past and not wanting to move forward. When I tried to explain to my brother why I'd decided to go non contact with mum, he accused me of the same thing and tried to minimise everything I'd experienced that led me to make the decision. I guess it's so much easier to just rug sweep everything and pretend things are fine than it is to take ownership of the mistakes made  but I just couldnt keep up with the pretending any more.
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Dec 9, 2021 02:43
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deep dish peat moss posted:Any time I've tried to explain that to someone who never experienced all of this stuff, I get replies like "She clearly loved you if she was feeding you." and "You shouldn't complain about your mom wanting to cook for you." and "At least she didn't hit you." This isn't just frustrating, but stupid. I suppose a lot of people have been taught that 'abuse' and 'neglect' can only mean hitting a child and letting them go hungry when they're off doing drugs. (and even then...) But yeah, the Seinfeld example really comes to mind as how frustrating and absurd it can be, to treat your grown-up kids as literal children to the point of denying reality. And it also tracks that this means they're incredibly easy to fool as long as you tell them what they want to hear.
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Dec 9, 2021 02:54
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The refusal to be accountable for anything, anything at all, by these parents over the last few pages of posts, is infuriating. And it's disrespectful, and you all deserve better.
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Dec 9, 2021 03:42
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"You should be grateful I took care of some of your basic needs!" Like yeah, you're loving supposed to. That's the bare minimum. That bar is so low it's flat on the ground. Why yes, we're all super grateful you didn't let your kid starve to death. That was a truly heroic and monumental task you overcame. I'm glad to know that starvation and malnourishment was apparently seen as a viable option when deciding your parental responsibilities. You are worthy of worship because you realized starving your dependants isn't good optics. "I loving hate this kid and they're a huge burden, but I should probably keep giving them food, otherwise I might look bad. It's just so much work! They better be loving grateful when they're older."
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Dec 9, 2021 04:53
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Sometimes my mum would try and bring up this time we went to a place and I was a brat because I wanted an expensive thing. She would be like "lol you remember that time when you were six and you had a screaming tantrum in that shop? I was so embarassed!" And I would always deny remembering it because can't you just let it go I was six! I did remember it, I would just lie about not remembering it just to make her maybe never bring it up again.  I feel like that's sort of the same thought process as a lot of this.
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Dec 9, 2021 05:04
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As my girlfriend says, "What, they want a PRIZE for not abusing you?" My mom pulls the "I could've left you at the fire station!! i fed you and clothed you and paid for school!!" and has since I was like, a toddler. Sometimes I'd think to myself "maybe the fire station would've been cool"
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Dec 9, 2021 15:03
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Bargearse posted:So long as it includes “having to put up with narc housemates” do I have some stories for you I am very down for a narcy narc and the darvo bunch thread. Honestly, you might be able to pull it off in GBS (and if an OP need someone to keep an eye, lmk).
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Dec 9, 2021 15:25
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trickybiscuits posted:
sort of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-brain_interpreter quote:However, the facile explanations provided by the left-brain interpreter may also enhance the opinion of a person about themselves and produce strong biases which prevent the person from seeing themselves in the light of reality and repeating patterns of behavior which led to past failures quote:The checks and balances provided by the right brain hemisphere may thus avoid scenarios that eventually lead to delusion via the continued construction of biased explanations.[4] In 2002 Gazzaniga stated that the three decades of research in the field had taught him that the left hemisphere is far more inventive in interpreting facts than the right hemisphere's more truthful, literal approach to information management. tldr; we are all guilty of creating alternate realities for ourselves and it takes a -lot- of outside effort from multiple sources before most people even start to understand that their own narrative is false so when you confront a person one on one, they will just shoot down whatever evidence you have as your own faulty bias, whereas if multiple sources present the same evidence, the amount of mental gymnastics will get more and more complex. combine this with an abuser who already sees you as little more than a child, a lesser being, and it is impossible to try and get them see things your way at all. you need to have other people, both from your own circle of trusted friends, and people that the abuser trusts and respect, confront them about their behavior to have a hope of real change coming about.
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Dec 9, 2021 16:04
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Nettle Soup posted:Sometimes my mum would try and bring up this time we went to a place and I was a brat because I wanted an expensive thing. She would be like "lol you remember that time when you were six and you had a screaming tantrum in that shop? I was so embarassed!" So my mother is a next-level toxic narc. Somewhere between having me and then my brother 11 months and 28 days later, she put on a lot of weight. Not necessarily a fully obese person, but she's had a gut my entire life. Even as a very, very young child I knew that she was mortified about her weight, even though I really didn't understand why. 5 years old, walking in the mall with my mom and brother. IIRC my mom was in a lovely mood, which of course was my responsibility to alleviate. My mother had been dieting lately, and I wanted to pay her a compliment, so I pointed out a swimsuit as we were walking past and said 'look mom! you're doing so well on your diet you will fit in that in like a year!' So, obviously that is a loving horrible thing to say. In my defense, I was 5. My mom loving melted down in Sears I was begging her to hit me, abuse me to take out some of her horrible anger, and she said 'if i started hitting you i would never stop'. As a kid, this was the "moment" where I could trace back to when my mother hated me. (Like it was just a thing "oh whoops I said the wrong thing in Sears, and now its cool for my mother to factually hate me for the rest of my life".) Where I'm going with this - outside of being the first time my mother made it clear she would beat me to death for backhandedly insulting her, she bears this grudge to this day. Years ago, when I thought that maybe there was a potential for a relationship with this lunatic, I brought the incident up and it was a fascinating response - she very briefly started to fight about it, and then when I said something like "are you seriously still angry at me for a misspoken compliment from over 30 years ago?" and she clammed up and claimed she didn't remember it at all. Total lie - she still blames me for opening my car door too much into the car next to us and someone yelled at her. I was 8, it was an accident, and although the guy yelled about his 'just painted porsche' nothing ever came of it. She's still angry on that one too. These little details (and this thread!) where the first cracks in finally tearing away from that awful person. How crazy and broken do you have to be to hold a grudge against a kid for 30 years?
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Dec 9, 2021 16:23
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teen witch posted:I am very down for a narcy narc and the darvo bunch thread. Honestly, you might be able to pull it off in GBS (and if an OP need someone to keep an eye, lmk). I appreciate the support from all of you for this kind of thread. In recovering from the narcissistic abuse I endured from the sociopath I dated, i've found talking with others that have been through this kind of abuse and sharing stories as well as information and knowledge about narcissistic personality disorder and antisocial personality disorder and offering encouragement and validation has been really helpful. I also want to spread awareness. I won't do it yet... but soon, and thanks so much. I think GBS couuuuuld work because i do want a wide range of not only survivors of narcs but curious people to read it so people become more aware of the insidious and covert nature of this abuse and about how trauma affects people. I will definitely let you know. I would love for you to keep an eye on it! Cosmic Thing fucked around with this message at 16:52 on Dec 9, 2021 |
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Dec 9, 2021 16:48
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OMFG FURRY posted:sort of Holy crap, this explains so much. My mom keeps doing this thing when whenever I tell her something that she doesn’t know or even slightly disagrees with she will utterly dismiss me and go “that’s not true”, “that’s not how things work”, “you’re reading things in weird websites again” etc, and then later on say repeat the exact same thing back to me from one of her acquaintances she hates and completely fail to notice. It’s the most frustrating poo poo ever.
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Dec 10, 2021 11:00
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Does anyone else's narc family go through like a checklist of verbal phrases to sound like have empathy when they really don't? (Lol of course they do) Conversation with my sister a few months ago. S: I want you to know I love you, and I'm always here if you need anything, and I will support you any way I can M: Can we sit down and talk about our fight last year? S: You need to let that go, get over it and stop holding a grudge. M: I'd like to talk about it, and that's how you can help me feel supported. S: I already apologized (by invoking the 1st amendment) M: There's still a lot of air to clear, and cycles that keep repeating. S: I'm not getting into it, I can forgive you, you have to forgive me. M: I can forgive you too, but it's important to me you understand what is being forgiven. S: silence... M: So, it seems like you aren't there for me. I don't feel loved or supported. S: I can sense that your angry and I'm not talking to you until you calm down. You're my brother and I will always love you, but you need to let it go. That was the first contact we had in over 6 months, and it's been about 6 months since then too. There's this idea that "I love you," "I forgive you," and "sorry" are magic phrases that erase problems without actually showing love or a sincere apology, or understanding of the other person's perspective. Also telling me how I feel. Telling me I'm angry so she doesn't have to talk to me. Some of this I think is because we never learned how to properly apologize as kids. My mom was so overworked that fights would just get resolved by us saying "I'm sorry" and going off to our rooms pissed at each other. Wasn't until getting thrust into adulthood I had to learn that's not how apologies actually work. eSporks fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Dec 10, 2021 |
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Dec 10, 2021 16:46
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teen witch posted:narcy narc and the darvo bunch thread This sounds nice, although every time I hear DARVO I think of Davros and imagine a dalek tumbling down the stairs going "IT NEVER HAPPENED. AND IF IT DID IT WAS NOT MY FAULT" in the "exterminate" voice
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Dec 10, 2021 16:50
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eSporks posted:Does anyone else's narc family go through like a checklist of verbal phrases to sound like have empathy when they really don't? (Lol of course they do) i came up with my own verbal phrase response "actions speak louder than words, please do literally anything to demonstrate what you are saying" for some reason that didnt work
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Dec 10, 2021 17:08
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eSporks posted:... This is spot on and it's so unsettling when it happens. My partners parent verbally ripped them to shreds, I got home and she was in tears on the floor. The parent never apologised and it got skipped over with an 'i love you' after a few days. At the time it seemed like a positive step but it never addresses the issue and I realise now it's just left this crater in the relationship. At the time I wasn't sure if I should say something or of that would make it all worse. Anyway the uneasy sensation I've had around that parent since has answered the question for me if it ever happens again.
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Dec 10, 2021 17:40
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Rutibex posted:i came up with my own verbal phrase response "actions speak louder than words, please do literally anything to demonstrate what you are saying"
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Dec 10, 2021 17:47
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eSporks posted:You sound angry Rutibex. You should work on that. im not angry im just disappointed
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Dec 10, 2021 19:59
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eSporks posted:Does anyone else's narc family go through like a checklist of verbal phrases to sound like have empathy when they really don't? (Lol of course they do) This was it to a mirror shine. She would go through the checklist of behaviors, never change get own, punish me for her failing. Then lie about it, read another fad parenting book, and move on to the next checklist. It's weird that people think I'm alive and I matter now? Have to override that internal defense to even get closer to people. Well, time for more therapy.
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Dec 10, 2021 21:17
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Picnic Princess posted:"You should be grateful I took care of some of your basic needs!" I once asked my spouse's mother if she wanted a medal for meeting basic parental obligations. She said yes. edit: and then my spouse made her one it was father's day and she felt left out. I'm all hosed up about having to visit because spouse isn't yet ready to put a foot down. But it's getting there.
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Dec 10, 2021 23:03
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textbookOrigins posted:I once asked my spouse's mother if she wanted a medal for meeting basic parental obligations. Argh. That's so hosed up. It sucks being the spouse, because you see the abuse in a totally different light: it's not obfuscated under the idea that it's normal or that you have to love your family. You can't make the big decisions though, since it's not your family, but you have to watch and support your spouse as this bullshit tears them up inside. It's tough in it's own way.
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Dec 11, 2021 00:32
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Was the medal at least a backhanded or sarcastic thing?
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Dec 11, 2021 00:50
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skooma512 posted:Was the medal at least a backhanded or sarcastic thing? Oh, no. It was beautifully crafted in a blind panic over the course of the rest of our visit and presented with respect. I got to see how weary they were after, though; it helped remove the fog a bit. (This year they've finally admitted that their mother "is not a good person;" am amazed. It only took a few decades.) I've made the mistake of standing up for them in the past and it's never helped (except to convince the mother to call the cops over for a wellness visit). It's tough but it is getting better.
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Dec 11, 2021 00:56
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textbookOrigins posted:I once asked my spouse's mother if she wanted a medal for meeting basic parental obligations. Christ, a kid pouting on their sibling's birthday is bad enough, it's even worse when they're supposedly a grown adult.
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Dec 11, 2021 01:01
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I just had a fight with a sibling about the vaccine again. So fun! This was in a phone call after I told them I wanted my parents to stop bringing up politics. Sibling asked if I had ever expressed this and I told them yes of course. Sibling agreed we should be able to not talk politics, but then 10 minutes later they brought up how I think everyone should get vaxxed. I tried to say I don't feel like that is a political issue - which it really should not be - and then I asked if we could please not talk about it because we will never agree. Of course sibling is anti vax. Sibling goes ahead and says we have to talk about it because my side has been heard and therefore I need to hear sibling's side. I asked a few more times to please not go there. Sibling kept going. I said some stuff I know was hurtful. I told them they are being selfish for not getting the vax and selfish for letting their teen contract covid instead of getting the shot. I feel like poo poo about it! Not sure I can handle hanging out with any of my family without it devolving into an argument. I wish I were stronger and could just not say anything! I feel like every conversation I have with my family is bait though. It really sucks. That medal story is really sad. Your partner is lucky to have you, and thank you for being patient with them as they realize wtf is going on
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Dec 11, 2021 02:21
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eSporks posted:Does anyone else's narc family go through like a checklist of verbal phrases to sound like have empathy when they really don't? (Lol of course they do) Yes. As soon as my Nmom gets to “well, look. I know I wasn’t a perfect parent,”—which is usually her immediate response when faced with any criticism of her behavior that she can’t outright deny—I know the conversation is already over. To this day I cannot remember one instance in my lifetime where either of my parents have actually apologized to me, not even the words “I’m sorry” (that weren’t sarcastic and immediately followed by “I wasn’t a perfect parent”), let alone a genuine apology or taken any actual responsibility for their actions. Ever. It’s painful to realize that as I type it. Edit: ^^^^ That is so hard. The anti-vaxx stuff is so hard to navigate, it’s my one saving grace that my family hasn’t succumbed to that particular flavor of awful. I admit it’s interesting to see the correlations between those who refuse to face the reality of science in the world around them and those who refuse to face the reality of the consequences of their actions in their relationships with others. blinkeve1826 fucked around with this message at 02:25 on Dec 11, 2021 |
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Dec 11, 2021 02:21
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HungryMedusa posted:I just had a fight with a sibling about the vaccine again. So fun! Ugh this is how conversations tend to go in my family too. It sucks rear end. Me: My dad: IT IS MY BODY AND THE GOVERNMENT IS OVERREACHING Me: My dad: DEFEND YOUR POSITION Me: no My dad: THAT IS BECAUSE YOU CANNOT DEFEND IT BECAUSE IT IS WRONG It just never loving ends.
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Dec 11, 2021 02:44
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life is killing me posted:Ugh this is how conversations tend to go in my family too. It sucks rear end. It really does not. I asked several times to just please stop. I don't know what else to do at this point; guess I have to limit my conversations with family to 4 minutes or less,and even then it's a 50/50 chance of some shittiness
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Dec 11, 2021 02:48
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Ever since I had my falling out with my aunt, I've seen her post more and more batshit garbage on FB, not all covid related, but a lot, and I don't really feel like I'm missing out on much these days. I wouldn't be able to handle trying to have a conversation with her anymore. She's completely unhinged and it's terrifying.
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Dec 11, 2021 04:32
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Picnic Princess posted:Ever since I had my falling out with my aunt, I've seen her post more and more batshit garbage on FB, not all covid related, but a lot, and I don't really feel like I'm missing out on much these days. I wouldn't be able to handle trying to have a conversation with her anymore. She's completely unhinged and it's terrifying. My aunt start posting about how statues of Confederates should stay up because they were brave men who fought for their rights. She's a PNW native. I've stopped talking to her. My cousin, one of her adopted sons, says he's been trolling her over it, but she's not my mom and I wish she'd just go away.
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Dec 11, 2021 07:53
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Its like talking to someone who is insisting the earth is cone shaped, and when you give any evidence that its not, just switches to arguing that the color purple has declared war on Easter, and somehow that proves their point. There's nothing you can say that's going to get through to them.
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Dec 11, 2021 09:36
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HungryMedusa posted:Not sure I can handle hanging out with any of my family without it devolving into an argument. I wish I were stronger and could just not say anything! I feel like every conversation I have with my family is bait though. It really sucks. Grey rocking can be really hard, especially when you are being baited. Sometimes not engaging is just impossible. Wishing you all the best this holiday season.
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Dec 11, 2021 10:16
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Dirt Road Junglist posted:My aunt start posting about how statues of Confederates should stay up because they were brave men who fought for their rights.
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Dec 11, 2021 13:28
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eSporks posted:Maybe this is what you are meaning to say, but Oregon was created as a white ethnostate that banned black people from entering. It's more racist than anywhere in the south these days. Oregon's legislature literally voted to prohibit slavery not because they thought that slavery was wrong, but because that's how much they didn't want black people around them.
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Dec 11, 2021 16:25
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Vampire Panties posted:So my mother is a next-level toxic narc. Somewhere between having me and then my brother 11 months and 28 days later, she put on a lot of weight. Not necessarily a fully obese person, but she's had a gut my entire life. Even as a very, very young child I knew that she was mortified about her weight, even though I really didn't understand why. There was a kid outside the other day, probably 10 years old, having a proper meltdown. "You don't love me (my neighbour), my mother doesn't love me. Nobody gives a poo poo about me. All you (his mum) care about is yourself, all you have ever cared about is yourself." and so on for a good 20 minutes until they got him to go with his dad. I hope he got some help, but let's be honest, reality is probably nobody listened to him. 
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Dec 11, 2021 19:03
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eSporks posted:Maybe this is what you are meaning to say, but Oregon was created as a white ethnostate that banned black people from entering. It's more racist than anywhere in the south these days. We’re from Montana. Though now that I live in Oregon, yeah, I’m aware of this place’s shittiness. Thanks.
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Dec 11, 2021 20:36
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Picnic Princess posted:Ever since I had my falling out with my aunt, I've seen her post more and more batshit garbage on FB, not all covid related, but a lot, and I don't really feel like I'm missing out on much these days. I wouldn't be able to handle trying to have a conversation with her anymore. She's completely unhinged and it's terrifying. I love reading online advice columns and discussion boards and stuff, and January 6 felt like something I've seen happen a lot, when the person getting treated badly in a relationship hits their limit. It was like that for me personally and I think for a lot of other people. There's really only so much you can treat someone badly and still expect them to stay around. I don't know. It's something I've been thinking about for a while and that article sort of sums it up- they get something from us, and we get nothing from them, and that dynamic can only get pushed so far before the person getting nothing decides to leave. Anyway, I'm not in the position that a lot of people are in this thread. But I did absolutely give up on being part of a living history group that saw me through some really rough times in my life. I hadn't been active in it for years and I'm still friends with people in it, so it's not a tremendous loss, but it was consciously giving up on something that once meant a lot to me. It's bittersweet. But seven months later I joined another group, with wonderful people and no Trump supporters, that does things that I would never get the chance to do otherwise. I don't know if it works to tell people "You're being really unpleasant and if you want to keep me around you'll be a lot nicer, because I've had it." Captain Awkward thinks it might work: quote:Your parents probably won’t change their minds or their behavior when you aren’t around, but I’ll say it again: They notice and care what you think. They want you to agree with them. They want you to think they are good people. They want you to be a reflection of them. They want you to comply with them and support their points of view in public. They probably don’t care as much about not stressing you out in public as they do about wanting to look good in your eyes. You can use that, even if it’s just to shame them into pretending to be better. If this is true, then (Captain Awkward also says this, I just couldn't find where) you being around them- even if it's just so they can feel superior to you- might have more value than being lovely. In that case your willingness to walk away and not see them or interact with them is power. But if they don't care, then things aren't going to get better, and you might as well walk away and save yourself. Basically, you're allowed to take time off from this poo poo, and if you do you probably won't regret it.
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Dec 11, 2021 20:58
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Sister asked. If we could "put differences aside for Christmas" I told her no thank you, because that always means I put my differences aside for everyone else and feel disrespected. Her response was "sorry you feel that way, I always love you and am here for you" I asked "can we talk about our differences?" "You need to let that go" How hard is it to say "I'm sorry I make you feel disrespected, what can I do to change that?" Edit: Oh poo poo! The two page un-punctuated text just dropped.
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Dec 12, 2021 00:44
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How can you be expected to let it go when she won't change her behavior?
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Dec 12, 2021 00:45
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ohnobugs posted:How can you be expected to let it go when she won't change her behavior?
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Dec 12, 2021 00:46
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eSporks posted:" 1 She's not. and 2 She doesn't want to. That is why it is so hard for her to say, and why whe wont ever say it, let alone mean it. It is much easier to paint you as the villain, as the whiny bitch who wont let it go, and paint herself as the saint who has forgiven you even if she herself hasn't been forgiven. Enjoy the Christmas without her. You deserve better.
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Dec 12, 2021 00:50
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