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oh no, the bad guy said "fight me", so if we fight him he's winning actually
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Dec 21, 2021 19:23
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Cythereal posted:Because he's the last battle of the entire FF14 launch saga. Every single choice is "Give Zenos what he wants, maybe with some reluctance." Because the Warrior of Light wants to fight him. The exact reason behind the why is up to the player.
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Dec 21, 2021 19:25
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Absolutely wild galaxy brain theory: there actually is no current Azem. But since you keep going back to the past and telling people "yeah I'm totally Azem's familiar lol" and generally going around doing Azemish things, the people of Amaurot just start referring to you directly as Azem.
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Dec 21, 2021 19:28
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Cythereal posted:Because he's the last battle of the entire FF14 launch saga. Every single choice is "Give Zenos what he wants, maybe with some reluctance." I don't think of Zenos as the villain of EW...?
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Dec 21, 2021 19:28
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Because no matter what, we can't just walk away and let him go and do his own thing. Even if he truly gives up on fighting us if we walk away like he offers, something I highly doubt he could keep to long-term, he'll just go somewhere else and create more problems while trying to find his ultimate bliss. We'll have to stop him eventually, because he won't stop himself and nobody else seems to even get close to being able to. We've got him there where we can fight one-on-one and he doesn't have any backup, tricks, preparations or other people to exploit to get an upper hand. It's absolutely the best chance to take down a monster, and we're going to take it.
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Dec 21, 2021 19:28
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Zenos is still very much committed to chasing his murder high. Not killing him is just letting him hop off to go murder a shitload of other people until he finally finds some one that can once again give him that challenge. Even for a reluctant hero type that has to be obvious.
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Dec 21, 2021 19:28
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Fister Roboto posted:Absolutely wild galaxy brain theory: there actually is no current Azem. But since you keep going back to the past and telling people "yeah I'm totally Azem's familiar lol" and generally going around doing Azemish things, the people of Amaurot just start referring to you directly as Azem. That'd be hilarious, and a fun twist, as unlikely as it is.
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Dec 21, 2021 19:29
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Fister Roboto posted:Absolutely wild galaxy brain theory: there actually is no current Azem. But since you keep going back to the past and telling people "yeah I'm totally Azem's familiar lol" and generally going around doing Azemish things, the people of Amaurot just start referring to you directly as Azem. That... would actually be hilarious, and I'd appreciate that a lot more than the "your soul is the same color~" bullshit. (yes, I know, the game has a lot to say about soul reincarnation not defining who you are and etc. but I still am extremely lukewarm on the entire idea)
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Dec 21, 2021 19:30
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Honestly the three responses to Zenos before the fight starts do an excellent job of being able to sum up every possible reaction a WoL might have to Zenos from "hell yeah best friend sick fites are the best" all the way to "I am not tolerating this rear end in a top hat for one single solitary second longer" which I appreciated for how easily it can fit into any player's personal story leading them there Kyrosiris posted:That... would actually be hilarious, and I'd appreciate that a lot more than the "your soul is the same color~" bullshit. (yes, I know, the game has a lot to say about soul reincarnation not defining who you are and etc. but I still am extremely lukewarm on the entire idea) Alas we have firsthand reports from the Elpis trio of the existing Azem so it's unlikely. The offhand comment about "running headfirst into an erupting volcano" is actually expanded in one of the short-form stories they did for one of the anniversary celebrations: A volcano is erupting and Azem is running into it to concentrate the fire-aspected aether into an actual, tangible entity - which they will then destroy, dissipating the fire aether and preventing the eruption. They are doing this because it's taking place on a temperate island known for a unique variety of wine grapes, and they like the wine and don't want it destroyed forever. In short - they're exactly the same whimsicaly charitable murder hobo that we are off to do crazy poo poo just to help people and maybe get some fun rewards in the process
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Dec 21, 2021 19:37
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TGLT posted:Zenos is still very much committed to chasing his murder high. Not killing him is just letting him hop off to go murder a shitload of other people until he finally finds some one that can once again give him that challenge. Even for a reluctant hero type that has to be obvious. Yeah even if you consider fighting him a chore, it would be irresponsible to just let this psycho madman wander the universe trying to make himself stronger by fighting bigger and bigger things. He says he's done threatening your friends but you can't trust him.
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Dec 21, 2021 19:39
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Meiteron posted:Honestly the three responses to Zenos before the fight starts do an excellent job of being able to sum up every possible reaction a WoL might have to Zenos from "hell yeah best friend sick fites are the best" all the way to "I am not tolerating this rear end in a top hat for one single solitary second longer" which I appreciated for how easily it can fit into any player's personal story leading them there Were the grapes perhaps uniquely low polygon textured?
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Dec 21, 2021 19:41
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Shogeton posted:Were the grapes perhaps uniquely low polygon textured? turns out there were four unsundered from the ancient days, three ascians and one grape polygon, already too simplified and perfect to be further divided
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Dec 21, 2021 19:42
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Meiteron posted:Honestly the three responses to Zenos before the fight starts do an excellent job of being able to sum up every possible reaction a WoL might have to Zenos from "hell yeah best friend sick fites are the best" all the way to "I am not tolerating this rear end in a top hat for one single solitary second longer" which I appreciated for how easily it can fit into any player's personal story leading them there The thing that confused me about Pandaemonium is when Themis says someone told him to wait for a falling star. He used she so I assumed it was Venat, because if it was Azem that'd be really weird how they would know we are coming. But people have said that actually that pronoun is dynamic and is he for male characters? So it clearly can't be Venat. I hope they clarify that more.
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Dec 21, 2021 19:49
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Cythereal posted:Because he's the last battle of the entire FF14 launch saga. Every single choice is "Give Zenos what he wants, maybe with some reluctance." I guess the question is: do you think the WoL would be so determined to deny Zenos his wish that they would let him live, probably find his way back to Etheirys, and continue doing Zenos things? That's what option #2 is supposed to cover, I think. That's the WoL going, "I really don't care what you think, but it's my duty to make sure you don't leave this place." People get really caught up on the idea that fighting Zenos is giving him what he wants, when the alternative is that he continues to live on and be Zenos. Is that really better?
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Dec 21, 2021 19:52
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Eimi posted:The thing that confused me about Pandaemonium is when Themis says someone told him to wait for a falling star. He used she so I assumed it was Venat, because if it was Azem that'd be really weird how they would know we are coming. But people have said that actually that pronoun is dynamic and is he for male characters? So it clearly can't be Venat. I hope they clarify that more. It was "he" for me so that's correct, it is dynamic. Which pretty clearly points towards it being Azem. Also whenever anyone in Elpis vaguely mentions a friend, it's always Azem.
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Dec 21, 2021 19:54
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Eimi posted:The thing that confused me about Pandaemonium is when Themis says someone told him to wait for a falling star. He used she so I assumed it was Venat, because if it was Azem that'd be really weird how they would know we are coming. But people have said that actually that pronoun is dynamic and is he for male characters? So it clearly can't be Venat. I hope they clarify that more. I definitely got He, so it’s likely Elidibus on an adventure at the behest/guidance of Azem. If you pick the I’m a familiar of Azem thing he totally buys it and basically seems to think that Azem sent you to him.
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Dec 21, 2021 19:55
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Harrow posted:Is that really better? I consider that a fault of the writing that they made him so shallow. But I suppose at the end of the day this is correct: Sea_Caldwell posted:Because the Warrior of Light wants to fight him. The exact reason behind the why is up to the player. The Warrior of Light isn't my character anymore. Never was, I suppose.
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Dec 21, 2021 20:00
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I thought they did an excellent job of writing the WoL as a ciper this expansion, like noticeably more than usual personally. The only dialogue option that's missing that I would've wanted is something affirming how we feel about being Azem/expressing a desire to want to be called by that title because gods know I do. 
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Dec 21, 2021 20:02
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Cythereal posted:Because he's the last battle of the entire FF14 launch saga. Every single choice is "Give Zenos what he wants, maybe with some reluctance." he proved over and over he'll do anything to get his fight, to the point of literally ending the world. Who cares if he gets his fight boner when we finally decide 'alright, you're not living here alive my dude'?
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Dec 21, 2021 20:03
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also zenos very explicitly is left hollow at the end, he asks us if our life is a blessing or a curse because we're as close to a parallel as he can think of to his own feelings and we seem...mostly...functional so he's forced to reckon with 'maybe I'm just a sociopath and it's not actually that the entire world and existence itself is just beneath me'. He's very much the dog that caught the car, he got his big fight with us at both of our best and he got stomped and died in space like the stupid magic fascist he was. It's really weird to think he 'won' in any form!
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Dec 21, 2021 20:05
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Cythereal posted:Because he's the last battle of the entire FF14 launch saga. Every single choice is "Give Zenos what he wants, maybe with some reluctance." Because it kills him? 
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Dec 21, 2021 20:09
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Yeah, I liked the scene with Zenos at the end because Zenos was forced to face how empty his life had been. The teleporter coming down next to us (whether wished there by him or not) and that final shot of his cooling dead body at the end of the universe really says it all about the differences between your WoL and him in a way I don't think him making a frowny face over my character's corpse would have matched. EDIT: Fundamentally, I just don't see it about "rewarding Zenos", I see it as an extension of mercy I see as intrinsic to the WoL. This broken excuse for a human being really opens up to you for the first time, practically pleading with you to help him relive the only time in his existence that he's ever felt fully alive. Then you make it back to your friends because you have people that care about you and love you. Zenos doesn't have anyone or anything like that. musouka fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Dec 21, 2021 |
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Dec 21, 2021 20:10
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Yeah, that's the other thing: Zenos didn't get what he wanted. After all that, he died realizing how hollow it had all been.
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Dec 21, 2021 20:11
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Lord_Magmar posted:I definitely got He, so it’s likely Elidibus on an adventure at the behest/guidance of Azem. If you pick the I’m a familiar of Azem thing he totally buys it and basically seems to think that Azem sent you to him. The other funny part of this, though, is that it implies that Azem is completely aware of the poo poo his/her future reincarnation is getting up to. We are being trolled by our own past life.
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Dec 21, 2021 20:15
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Cythereal posted:I consider that a fault of the writing that they made him so shallow. There are serial killers in real life, and both the real world Nero and Commodus were infamous for their love of gladiatorial combat. Zenos is a very single minded character but that doesn't make him a shallow or badly written one, especially in light of the role he serves in the game's narrative. He's a bad existentialist. His selfishness is meant to stand in contrast to the Scion's selflessness.
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Dec 21, 2021 20:17
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Cythereal posted:I consider that a fault of the writing that they made him so shallow. I dunno, I guess I don't buy the fact that Zenos isn't able to be talked out of fighting or something a sign that he's shallow. To be clear, I really disliked Zenos before this expansion. If you'd asked me last month what the dumbest writing choice in all of FFXIV was, I probably would've said "bringing Zenos back." So I'm not coming at this from the perspective of a Zenos fan or anything. I was just pleasantly surprised that a) he wasn't actually the villain of the expansion and the marketing was a fakeout, and b) he ended up with a thematically-appropriate arc. He spends the whole expansion searching for meaning and failing to understand the Warrior of Light, the person he considers his only friend. At the end he finally approaches understanding--he begins his pre-fight monologue by talking about all the ways you're not the same--and in the end, dies realizing that his path through life had left him hollow and unfulfilled. At the end, he is the Warrior of Light's mirror--not "mirror" in the sense of duplicate, but more of a twisted reflection. His dying monologue is him realizing he didn't find meaning even getting what he thought he wanted, and trying to find out whether you found fulfillment in your path, since he didn't find it in his. (Of course my actual bias here is that his dying monologue reminded me of Delita's final lines in Final Fantasy Tactics and I always found the last scene in FFT really haunting and meaningful.)
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Dec 21, 2021 20:20
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Harrow posted:At the end, he is the Warrior of Light's mirror--not "mirror" in the sense of duplicate, but more of a twisted reflection. Yup. I've said it before, but he's the perfect capstone to the expansion as a whole, because the question of, "How should one live one's life?" still exists even after overcoming existential despair. It's a person who lives only for himself fighting a person who lives only for others at the edge of the universe, which creates a deeply meaningful conclusion when you ultimately triumph.
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Dec 21, 2021 20:24
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I am also a historical Zenos Disliker and they did interesting stuff with him here. I thought his scene in Garlemald was also a meaningful point in the story, and it is not even we who score a telling point on him, it's Alisaie. So in a sense, Alisaie won, we just closed the deal. He also asserts the theme of being able to choose your own path because, having considered Alisaie's words and even perceptibly changed in his outlook on life, he has also decided that he will still pursue his purpose. At that point he is freed of the chains of ignorance and a bad upbringing; he has chosen freely. And for better or worse he did help us save the cosmos, so I have no issue with having thrown down one last time. The only downside is that it made me think Reaper ain't poo poo, because it's the class for people who lose, despite becoming vampires and having stunlocks.
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Dec 21, 2021 20:32
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FuturePastNow posted:This is the only screenshot of that quest I saved so I may have missed some dialogue, but it doesn't use any pronoun Turns out I misremembered. Could of sworn there was a pronoun there.
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Dec 21, 2021 20:32
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Zenos in the end is someone who could have been so much more if he was born into a different culture. But Garlemald broke and twisted him at a young age, and now he is a man trying to recreate that one transcendent moment he felt joy. He is a both a tyrannical monster and pitiable victim of Garlemald.
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Dec 21, 2021 20:43
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SirSamVimes posted:Turns out I misremembered. Could of sworn there was a pronoun there. There are at least there pronouns there, just not ones referring to a certain future creepy ex  . "it", "one" and "we" are pronouns.</urianger>
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Dec 21, 2021 20:45
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SirSamVimes posted:Turns out I misremembered. Could of sworn there was a pronoun there. I found the full dialogue from the quest: https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/The_Perks_of_Being_a_Lost_Flower#Dialogue
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Dec 21, 2021 20:49
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Gearhead posted:The other funny part of this, though, is that it implies that Azem is completely aware of the poo poo his/her future reincarnation is getting up to. We are being trolled by our own past life. That doesn't mean Azem isn't trolling us, naturally, but it does put me in a mind that Azem is possessed of the gift of prophecy, in the fashion of Temulun of the Mol Tribe, which is an interesting expansion of their character. It's possible Venat wasn't able to reach Azem because they were already making some final preparations of their own for the future.
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Dec 21, 2021 21:05
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Cythereal posted:Because he's the last battle of the entire FF14 launch saga. Every single choice is "Give Zenos what he wants, maybe with some reluctance." You could also say this about literally every other villain. And before you go "Oh but by fighting them we're stopping them from doing other harm and thus for other reasons!" That's also true of the zenos final duel and that's why the other voice options exist.
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Dec 21, 2021 21:32
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So is Lahabrea going to be retconned into being a sad dad or is the Lahabrea from the raid series going to be a bad dad who we defeat, with Eric becoming the Lahabrea we know and love
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Dec 21, 2021 21:34
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It's funny that people are like "i'd rather Zenos be sad than dead". Zenos may be an utter monster but I dislike him so much I think he should live actually.
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Dec 21, 2021 21:34
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:You could also say this about literally every other villain. And before you go "Oh but by fighting them we're stopping them from doing other harm and thus for other reasons!" That's also true of the zenos final duel and that's why the other voice options exist. Not every villain wants to throw hands, though. In fact I find the most satisfying villains are the ones that don't, because then by winning you actually do deprive them of what they want.
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Dec 21, 2021 21:38
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At the end of the day, I simply did not like Endwalker despite some great moments. I did not like how the protagonist was written, how it was paced, one of the primary villains, or the mechanical trend towards harder and harder story-required trials (my kingdom for a Very Easy mode for trials). The developers are making their game, and I know I'm in the - probably extreme - minority for not liking it. But if the game keeps going in the direction that it is, FF14 may not be a game for me anymore. We'll see how the promised whole new story in 6.1 shakes out.
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Dec 21, 2021 21:38
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FuturePastNow posted:I found the full dialogue from the quest: https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/The_Perks_of_Being_a_Lost_Flower#Dialogue Yeah I read through that when someone linked it before. OddObserver posted:There are at least there pronouns there, just not ones referring to a certain future creepy ex Mitron isn't an ex, they're a widow(er?).
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Dec 21, 2021 21:38
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thetoughestbean posted:So is Lahabrea going to be retconned into being a sad dad or is the Lahabrea from the raid series going to be a bad dad who we defeat, with Eric becoming the Lahabrea we know and love No, I'm not sure on how the mechanics of that would shake out, but I'd trust we'd get a stronger lead-in to that in the future installments if so. Different idle speculation for P4: I wonder if we'll get a secondary transformation from Hesperos in the extreme.
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Dec 21, 2021 21:45
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