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Burkion posted:I don't know, maybe telling nazis that they're acting like children and then forgiving them and being their best friend would do the trick A lot of would-be moral authorities miss that the whole performative scolding thing only ever works in extremely limited circumstances, if at all, and requires you to be a figure that's actually both genuinely respected and has authority, or otherwise they actually want to please. Otherwise, you look like an absolutely insufferable wannabe petty tyrant who wants to gently caress with people to feel big. McCloud posted:And even putting aside the whole "propaganda" aspect, even on a surface level the film is about a small plucky band of loyal soldiers using their knowledge of terrain to defeat an evil technologically superior invading empire. If anything, in this scenario the Spartans are the Taliban or Al Queda. The only way to view this film as some sort of endorsement of american aggression against Iraq is if one saw "White people killing brown people" and stopped thinking after that. Which, you know, accounts for a significant chunk of people, but that's on them, Oh yeah. Like, for an Iraq War analogy? One side is a small proud nation with a strong religious and heteronormative culture, the other is a vast, decadent, diverse, technologically advanced empire that massively outnumbers and outguns them, with a leader who demands subservience and promises rich rewards for selling out your people, while brandishing the skulls of kings they've previously destroyed.
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Jan 22, 2022 08:27
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Horizon Burning posted:steven universe got really weird in the last few seasons so idk it probably wouldn't be the vaccine to fascism This was probably an unfair expectation of it all along, really. It's a kid's show about learning to be yourself and accept others, not Homage to Catalonia.
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Jan 22, 2022 10:54
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josh04 posted:This was probably an unfair expectation of it all along, really. It's a kid's show about learning to be yourself and accept others, not Homage to Catalonia. i don't think so. it seems more like a result of some kind of difference in story direction given the sheer amount of stuff that gets jettisoned or retconned from the most, for lack of a better term, revolutionary period to the slapdash ending. probably coming from those writers who got axed or whatever. but the show went from great to meh in a very odd way
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Jan 22, 2022 13:41
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Horizon Burning posted:i don't think so. it seems more like a result of some kind of difference in story direction given the sheer amount of stuff that gets jettisoned or retconned from the most, for lack of a better term, revolutionary period to the slapdash ending. probably coming from those writers who got axed or whatever. but the show went from great to meh in a very odd way They weren't willing to go full Transformers with it and have non-human characters get totally brutally killed. That and mixing metaphors with a broken/abusive family and an oppressive fascist society doesn't work too well when you want a happy ending.
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Jan 22, 2022 14:00
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Ubik_Lives posted:Mate, I'm not trying to take your toys away from you, and I believe I'm arguing in good faith. I am trying to understand why some people think 300 is a satire of propaganda because it spends so little time being critical of the target Stop. Go watch an owl movie
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Jan 22, 2022 14:53
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The Snyderdome: Go watch an Owl movie
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Jan 22, 2022 14:59
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Thought exercise: At what point does starship troopers become critical enough to be satire?
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Jan 22, 2022 16:37
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bushisms.txt posted:Thought exercise: When you go to Youtube to watch the clip from the audio commentary where Verhoeven explains that you should go "People who wear this are BAD" when you see Dougie Howser in the SS uniform.
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Jan 22, 2022 16:55
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Grendels Dad posted:When you go to Youtube to watch the clip from the audio commentary where Verhoeven explains that you should go "People who wear this are BAD" when you see Dougie Howser in the SS uniform. Years ago I bought the SST DVD just for the commentary because the topic of whether or not the Bugs actually attacked Buenos Aires or it was a false flag by the Federation was hotly debated. I compiled a few minutes of it back then: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlRm1y4EzhA Listening to him go "BAD" was great. Love this man. EDIT: I haven't watched this in a long time. "And when I was growing up it was always these films, these kinds of action-adventure films, were always called "fascist." I remember a lot of my really liberal friends always used to tell me that RoboCop was a FASCSIT film." Not much has changed in the last 30 years or whenever this guy was in college. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 17:05 on Jan 22, 2022 |
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Jan 22, 2022 16:59
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bushisms.txt posted:Thought exercise: The opening scene in the movie where you realize that the supposedly elite soldier citizens are actually really poo poo at their only job.
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Jan 22, 2022 17:06
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I have constructed a liberal approved pitch for a 300 remake NikkolasKing posted:
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Jan 22, 2022 17:23
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Alhazred posted:The opening scene in the movie where you realize that the supposedly elite soldier citizens are actually really poo poo at their only job. This comment reminded me of how Zod got taken out by a namby pamby scientist in MoS
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Jan 22, 2022 17:45
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That starship trooper commentary sounds really interesting, now I want to hear the whole thing. Love a good commentary.
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Jan 22, 2022 18:26
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Alhazred posted:The opening scene in the movie where you realize that the supposedly elite soldier citizens are actually really poo poo at their only job. My vote would go to the asteroid strike. At the beginning of the movie they show this:  You couldn't shoot an asteroid clear across the galaxy. It's a drat false flag!
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Jan 22, 2022 18:29
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bushisms.txt posted:It was already critical enough for me, I'm not rooting to kill babies. The point is the people that are having these kind of conversations, are the ones who were supposed to say no that person isn't a fascist you're wrong. But instead we have a bunch of wannabe Lindsay Ellis's who think depiction equals endorsement and we've spent a decade with the same conversation. Good to know that you're the sole arbiter in how critical a movie should be, people's motivations for having discussions, and when they can have them. Especially so because... bushisms.txt posted:Thought exercise: ..you're not even reading my posts and just quoting me whilst talking past me to have a conversation with yourself. Wait, no, poo poo, is this a meta commentary on 300, where your posts are bad, but deliberately so bad that I'm forced to evaluate them not just on the face of the message, but to think more critically about what could motivate you to say them, with you attempting to capstone the debate by asking me something I answered in my opening statement as a reference to the 300 framing device? If so, well played.
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Jan 22, 2022 18:33
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Ubik_Lives posted:Good to know that you're the sole arbiter in how critical a movie should be, people's motivations for having discussions, and when they can have them. Especially so because... Bushisms has said that they consider the film to be adequately critical of the Spartans, and specifically point out how the film shows the Spatans killing babies as an example of the film showing how they're bad. Speaking personally, I don't find "who made you in charge of deciding that baby killing is bad?!" to be a convincing counter argument. Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Jan 22, 2022 |
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Jan 22, 2022 18:56
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2house2fly posted:My vote would go to the asteroid strike. At the beginning of the movie they show this: Look at this nerd who hasn't heard of Oumuamua
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Jan 22, 2022 19:01
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I’m just glad we had someone come in and tell us the distinctions between infestation and swarms and who or what gets to be designated with those terms.
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Jan 22, 2022 19:12
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Schwarzwald posted:Bushisms has said that they consider the film to be adequately critical of the Spartans, and specifically point out how the film shows the Spatans killing babies as an example of the film showing how they're bad. Neither do I, which is why I'm not saying that. I'm not the one telling the other to stop posting. I was questioning if the if the criticism of the Spartans could be improved by showing their eugenic programs as fundamentally flawed, not just relying on audience moral judgement while the in-universe narrative justifies its existence to keep Sparta strong in the face of external threats and internal corruption. Bushism stating that he thinks baby killing is a moral condemnation of the Spartans doesn't speak to what I was discussing. But fine, this is all just endlessly running around in circles, so I'm going to drop it. Thanks to the posters who meaningfully engaged with the discussion, I think I better see where you're coming from.
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Jan 22, 2022 19:50
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I think this is a super interesting conversation right now. When my elderly neighbors txt me not to go to the store this evening because “thugs” and “animals” are preparing to riot, I can only shrug because we live far far away from anything like that happening. Their worldview and fear is defined not by a theater screen, but their Fox News tv screen and Facebook phone screen. And when they have family over, I can’t help but notice the giant Q on the bumper. Again, their worldview is defined by a comedy forum and their phones. What they see on screens. Everything is just fanaticism and entertainment now. I spend two hours watching Matrix Resurrections for entertainment in the evening, while my neighbors watch two hours of Tucker and doomscroll. I’m against just about any censorship and I think challenging ideas and challenging media should be put into the culture. I like Snyder movies because they lean into difficult ideas of heroism. I don’t want books banned from my kid’s library, I want to trust him to read it all and make up his own mind. Tackle challenging ideas and think them through. But I also think it’s an interesting topic, especially as a sizable chunk of society is incapable of handling reality and the media presented to them. Enough people are living in an alternate reality that they stormed the capital and I think there are going to be a lot more serious problems. Can movies change people? Apparently the book "The Camp of the Saints" helped form Steve Bannon’s worldview. A Modest Proposal? Right wing talk radio? Media is powerful. I guess the only real way out of this is an increased focus on critical thinking and education in our culture. And maybe moving the topic into a dedicated thread, if there isn’t one already.
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Jan 22, 2022 20:27
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some burden of understanding satire must rest with the audience. would you expect a medieval peasant to understand how Starship Troopers is satirical, or even what it satirises? movies aren't just filmed, but watched as well. the director/scriptwriter/actor will never be able to completely control what the film says, because at some point they have to let the audience view it and interpret it in a process over which they have no control
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Jan 22, 2022 21:03
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Ubik_Lives posted:Neither do I, which is why I'm not saying that. I'm not the one telling the other to stop posting. I was questioning if the if the criticism of the Spartans could be improved by showing their eugenic programs as fundamentally flawed, not just relying on audience moral judgement while the in-universe narrative justifies its existence to keep Sparta strong in the face of external threats and internal corruption. Bushism stating that he thinks baby killing is a moral condemnation of the Spartans doesn't speak to what I was discussing. 300 is constrained by the source material it chose to adapt, and I also feel that the idea that Faramir is telling an exaggerated story where the spartans kinda suck would defeat the purpose of the unreliable narrator framing. The movie you want though already exists. It's called the Owls of Gahoole and the fascist owls dress up in Spartan helmets and the film repeatedly point out they suck. Lt. Danger posted:some burden of understanding satire must rest with the audience. would you expect a medieval peasant to understand how Starship Troopers is satirical, or even what it satirises? Yes, certain films expect the audience to actually engage with it instead of just being a passive observer.
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Jan 22, 2022 21:37
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Ubik_Lives posted:Neither do I, which is why I'm not saying that. I'm not the one telling the other to stop posting. I was questioning if the if the criticism of the Spartans could be improved by showing their eugenic programs as fundamentally flawed, not just relying on audience moral judgement while the in-universe narrative justifies its existence to keep Sparta strong in the face of external threats and internal corruption. Bushism stating that he thinks baby killing is a moral condemnation of the Spartans doesn't speak to what I was discussing. This would be a lot weaker, and more cowardly. Eugenics would be wrong even if they worked
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Jan 22, 2022 23:53
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Yeah I think a vital problem in this miscommunication here is the disagreement over how attractive/successful fascism can be shown to be before it becomes dangerous. Like, if you don't point out a big warning sign that the stuff you show is BAD and/or inefficient, it will attract copy-cats instead of thoughtful criticism. Which really shouldn't be a concern of the artist. Imagine if an artist had to wonder if the consumers of their art might be dumbasses.
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Jan 23, 2022 00:21
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I don't think anybody making pop culture movies has to wonder about that.
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Jan 23, 2022 00:22
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Missing the point of movies happens all the time. Apparently people in the military love Apocalypse Now, neo-nazis really liked American History X somehow and lots of people came out of Fight Club thinking Tyler Durden is a really cool dude. I'm not going to blame the films or the filmmakers for this, that's on the audiences.
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Jan 23, 2022 00:29
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garycoleisgod posted:Missing the point of movies happens all the time. Apparently people in the military love Apocalypse Now, neo-nazis really liked American History X somehow and lots of people came out of Fight Club thinking Tyler Durden is a really cool dude. Boiler Room and Glengarry Glen Ross, for anyone who’s worked a sales job
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Jan 23, 2022 01:20
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AdmiralViscen posted:Boiler Room and Glengarry Glen Ross, for anyone who’s worked a sales job My wife used to work at one of the ad firms Mad Men was based on and without fail every new hire would put on the Don Draperist voice they got for their lovely ad copy presentation
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Jan 23, 2022 01:32
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Just finished watching Army of Thieves. Pretty fun overall with some clever editing. I enjoyed how nonchalant some of the characters were about the whole zombie apocalypse. It was also cool learn more about Wagner’s ring cycle. I mostly knew it as an opera that was influential in bringing Le motif to scores. So I guess there are supposed to be another film or two? Is Snyder directing one of these sequels or will someone else again?
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Jan 23, 2022 04:23
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The latest Peacemaker episode explicitly establishes that DCEU Batman has a reputation for never killing, and that DCEU Joker is considered a ridiculous joke by other villains. Horizon Burning posted:steven universe got really weird in the last few seasons so idk it probably wouldn't be the vaccine to fascism Didn't it's fandom also spawn a large number of people who sent death threats to the show creators and bullied fan artists who didn't draw characters fat enough? I'm guessing there might be some overlap. I say this as someone who has never seen Steven Universe but has seen a lot of really weird fans of it.
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Jan 23, 2022 05:05
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checkplease posted:Just finished watching Army of Thieves. Pretty fun overall with some clever editing. I enjoyed how nonchalant some of the characters were about the whole zombie apocalypse. It was also cool learn more about Wagner’s ring cycle. I mostly knew it as an opera that was influential in bringing Le motif to scores.
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Jan 23, 2022 05:21
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He is also working on Norse mythology anime called Twilight of the Gods.
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Jan 23, 2022 05:23
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Chairman Capone posted:The latest Peacemaker episode explicitly establishes that DCEU Batman has a reputation for never killing, and that DCEU Joker is considered a ridiculous joke by other villains. Lol That'll show him! That will show Chapo Crime Clown! Whose laughing now?? I am, with my friend pro-life batman
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Jan 23, 2022 05:57
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Chairman Capone posted:The latest Peacemaker episode explicitly establishes that DCEU Batman has a reputation for never killing, and that DCEU Joker is considered a ridiculous joke by other villains. The other side of the 'media must present the correct moral messages to its impressionable audience' coin is that any time said media or anyone making related content to it deviates from what's seen as an acceptable standard, they become the Enemy that is corrupting the youth and harming the vulnerable and must be destroyed. Also reminded of a fan artist who drew Lana from Archer and got attacked for drawing her skin too light, when it was literally the exact shade her skin is in the show. This attitude pretty much condensed into the very special hellscape that is YA lit twitter. Ghost Leviathan fucked around with this message at 06:28 on Jan 23, 2022 |
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Jan 23, 2022 06:03
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RBA Starblade posted:My wife used to work at one of the ad firms Mad Men was based on and without fail every new hire would put on the Don Draperist voice they got for their lovely ad copy presentation i mean, the point of the show isn't that don is a bad salesman
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Jan 23, 2022 10:36
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Crespolini posted:i mean, the point of the show isn't that don is a bad salesman Lol
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Jan 23, 2022 13:29
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https://twitter.com/OhioDavee/status/1487075824842903560Snowman_McK posted:There was a goon, I think, who keeps a blog on historical stuff. He wrote a long, very well researched piece on how literally every propagandised aspect of the Spartans (their hardiness, their martial prowess, their weird version of equality) was utter bullshit. That, whenever it appears as an idea, it's almost always some antiquated, long in the past ideal that definitely did exist, we promise, guys. It's pretty analogous to modern americans going 'this isn't what the US is, the US is...oh dear' thatbastardken posted:https://acoup.blog/category/collections/this-isnt-sparta/ 
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Jan 28, 2022 18:05
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The United States posted:"Profoundly irresponsible" sounds about right It actually kind of sounds like a bullshit laughable exaggeration
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Jan 28, 2022 18:15
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It's profoundly irresponsible to point out that fascist propaganda is effective and cool. You should, instead, let the propaganda itself do that.
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Jan 28, 2022 18:48
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It's irresponsible to depict people going out in the sun without a shirt on and not getting burned
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Jan 28, 2022 18:56
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