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Koramei posted:In China for the past 30 years or so, you have the opposite; an ethno-nationalist historical orthodoxy has been getting steadily more codified. My impression of the Chinese mainstream perception on that is only through netizens in the China/Korea history wars that've been raging over the past couple of years, but at least by that metric things are pretty dire. It's not just amongst netizens, student intakes have become appreciably more nationalistic with every passing year.
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Jan 24, 2022 01:45
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Smeef posted:(I can't do a quote within a quote so I've just italicized the relevant portion.) China was, by your own admission, heading in a more liberal direction. By all accounts, it is due to Xi insistence that Zero Covid is a thing. "Authoritarianism" means more centralized controls and less reliance of market-based solutions, which is where Hu was taking things. That has not worked well for any country that has such priorities. Looks like laughable Xi Jinping Thought is working with regards to covid, as they've just stopped the lockdown in Xi'an and contained omicron. Daduzi posted:I've read the discussion, I am still baffled as to how you can think you've constructed a rule based on 2 countries, one of which does not follow the rule. Whether other countries have the resources or not is irrelevent, you can't postulate that authoritarian countries deal with the pandemic well and non-authoritarian countries don't when *by your own omission* only two countries have dealt with it well, and one of those countries is non-authoritarian. No, the rule is based on every country besides those two. Thus the exception being one of them. Glad I could clarify this very basic English phrase. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Judakel fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Jan 24, 2022 |
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Jan 24, 2022 23:02
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Judakel posted:"Authoritarianism" means more centralized controls and less reliance of market-based solutions, which is where Hu was taking things. And, you know, the genocide thing.
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Jan 25, 2022 00:46
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:And, you know, the genocide thing. I mean, the WHO estimates that up to a million afghan children may die due to malnutrition, directly related to US sanctions; evidently, genocide is not limited to authoritarian systems. It's entirely possible that a neoliberal China might have also acted with such a heavy hand towards Uyghur insurgency.
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Jan 25, 2022 01:43
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We know America does bad things how does that effect what China is doing.
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Jan 25, 2022 03:31
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drilldo squirt posted:We know America does bad things how does that effect what China is doing. the point of the comparison is to show that genocide is not remotely linked to authoritarianism as the poster is defining it because pretty much every state engages in genocide.
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Jan 25, 2022 03:33
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Where's the united states committing genocide?
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Jan 25, 2022 03:54
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drilldo squirt posted:Where's the united states committing genocide? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=V1508wboZXk
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Jan 25, 2022 03:59
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That's what I thought.
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Jan 25, 2022 04:14
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drilldo squirt posted:Where's the united states committing genocide? uh, concentration camps on the border, school-to-prison pipeline for black americans, the horror of how we continue to treat native americans and reservations leading to grossly reduced life expectations? like youre honestly spoilt for choice in america, and that's just the internal/contingent to the US ones! A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 04:31 on Jan 25, 2022 |
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Jan 25, 2022 04:29
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please talk about China in the China thread
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Jan 25, 2022 04:32
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Fritz the Horse posted:please talk about China in the China thread this is directly germane to the discussion about the previously cited authoritarianism in china which allowed for superior public policy responses to covid. the genocide in xinjiang was offered as a counterpoint, and I pointed out that genocides are near universal amongst nation states regardless of whether or not said authoritarianism is present e: wording A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 05:02 on Jan 25, 2022 |
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Jan 25, 2022 04:34
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A big flaming stink posted:this is directly germane to the discussion about the supposed authoritarianism in china that allows for superior public policy responses to covid. the genocide in xinjiang was offered as a counterpoint, and I pointed out that genocides are near universal amongst nation states regardless of whether or not authoritarianism, as it is defined here, is present  I guess I can't mindread what Plastic_Gargoyle was inferring, but that post read as Hu pushing genocide, not authoritarianism itself pushing it. Nor anything to do with Xinjiang/Uygurs. And if you need a reminder about this: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-28000937
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Jan 25, 2022 05:02
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Kalit posted:
oh, i'll confess i completely misread gargoyle's response then, i completely thought they were referring to the xinjiang stuff mea culpa
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Jan 25, 2022 05:11
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Neurolimal posted:I mean, the WHO estimates that up to a million afghan children may die due to malnutrition, directly related to US sanctions; evidently, genocide is not limited to authoritarian systems. It's entirely possible that a neoliberal China might have also acted with such a heavy hand towards Uyghur insurgency. Source? also, if the source lists similar estimates to other US sanctioned countries like Cuba and Venezuela I'd be interested in that as well
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Jan 25, 2022 05:47
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Epic High Five posted:Source? also, if the source lists similar estimates to other US sanctioned countries like Cuba and Venezuela I'd be interested in that as well typical disingenious bullshit from China apologists. https://www.thenation.com/article/world/afghanistan-sanctions-hunger/ https://www.wfp.org/stories/afghanistan-climate-crisis-drought-wfp-hunger-cop26-ipc-un That is the source for the 1 million claim. The cause is due to poor economic management since the Taliban took over and now a severe drought has ruined the harvest this year. The Taliban for obvious reasons is a pariah government. It isn't getting any significant help. US sanctions definitely aren't helping but it isn't the primary driver for these issues. The WFP document which is the source for the stories mentions sanctions exactly once in its press release - and in no way shape or form is it the primary driver of it. "Bauer highlights the effects of the “double-dip” of the La Niña climate phenomenon, which is causing the worst drought the country has seen in years." Direct quote from WFP But as always, if people are dying and the US is even remotely involved in some way shape or form in that and/or not gloriously riding in like a benevolent white knight - its loving genocide by the US/West/Capitalism what have you. These people poo poo up the thread constantly yet somehow are tolerated. Folks who make claims like this should be hit with the hammer hard. Either they didn't read the source document, just saw sanctions and ran with it or they are deliberately posting in bad faith thinking that no one will check up on them. I guess the jokes on me as I spent 10 minutes having to look up and debunk the claim that took 15 seconds to post. But such is D&D.
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Jan 25, 2022 06:02
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MikeC posted:typical disingenious bullshit from China apologists. Interesting and well argued, would like to hear an opposing viewpoint. Certainly a nation we just spent 20 years occupying probably can't be so simply extracted from our influence or economic planning but I'll withhold judgement until someone weighs in edit - one thing I'll say is that it's interesting that la nina has such a global effect when my whole like it was just a "oh it's a western US thing sourced off the west coast of Mexico" thing
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Jan 25, 2022 06:06
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Epic High Five posted:Interesting and well argued, would like to hear an opposing viewpoint. Certainly a nation we just spent 20 years occupying probably can't be so simply extracted from our influence or economic planning but I'll withhold judgement until someone weighs in Afghans were not starving en masse during the US occupation. As corrupt as the Afghan puppet regime was, quality of life improved measurably over. Even if you say it is all America's fault, it isn't like the Americans intentionally created the drought to starve Afghans to punish the Taliban. The CCP on the other hand *IS IN FACT PUTTING UYGHERS IN DETENTION CAMPS*. They aren't didn't wander into those camps by accident or their "re-education" isn't a by-product of a natural calamity. This is a straight-up false equivalence. If he wants to argue the US is causing genocide, there are plenty of other examples.
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Jan 25, 2022 06:10
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MikeC posted:Afghans were not starving en masse during the US occupation. Evidence of this specifically? From what I read and was generally exposed to, the rural/urban divide in US-held Afghanistan wasn't any less stark or dramatic as it is in the imperial core
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Jan 25, 2022 06:12
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Why is a moderator inviting debate about the ramifications of the US's occupation of Afghanistan in the China thread? If somebody wants to argue that the US is causing or has caused genocide, take it to the US politics thread.
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Jan 25, 2022 06:13
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Nilbop posted:Why is a moderator inviting debate about the ramifications of the US's occupation of Afghanistan in the China thread? I'm willing to explore it on the grounds that it was in response to my asking someone else for something else entirely, on the off chance it's vaguely relevant and thus worth considering. If not, well that's a separate matter. I'm not going to say there's a link between the CCP and the US occupation of Afghanistan but if someone here wants to insist on it I'm willing to give them a space to elaborate.
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Jan 25, 2022 06:17
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Epic High Five posted:Evidence of this specifically? From what I read and was generally exposed to, the rural/urban divide in US-held Afghanistan wasn't any less stark or dramatic as it is in the imperial core same reason why they are starving now, afghanistan was propped up by an absolutely massive mountain of aid and even while much of it was stolen along the way, much of it did also get through unfortunately that aid was a byproduct of the occupation. this was also compounded by foreign military/ngo spending in afghanistan propping up the afghan economy in a way that, despite efforts to transition away from, they did not successfully transition away from. Afghanistan is really, really hosed economically
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Jan 25, 2022 06:22
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Herstory Begins Now posted:same reason why they are starving now, afghanistan was propped up by an absolutely massive mountain of aid and even while much of it was stolen along the way, much of it did also get through I absolutely believe this for reference, and it makes sense historically. Was mostly just hoping for sources on it that may have pinned it down to the sort of specific figures Neuro cited. I recognize that it may still be too soon to be certain on that level, but mostly am happy to be wrong of analysis has been done already
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Jan 25, 2022 06:24
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Epic High Five posted:I absolutely believe this for reference, and it makes sense historically. Was mostly just hoping for sources on it that may have pinned it down to the sort of specific figures Neuro cited. I recognize that it may still be too soon to be certain on that level, but mostly am happy to be wrong of analysis has been done already you can google it, the afghan famine is currently a big deal and is getting a lot of press and several high-6 low-7 figure numbers have been floating around as the major estimates so it shouldn't be hard to track them down. idk off hand what one they are referring to specifically.
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Jan 25, 2022 06:26
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Herstory Begins Now posted:you can google it, the afghan famine is currently a big deal and is getting a lot of press and several high-6 low-7 figure numbers have been floating around as the major estimates so it shouldn't be hard to track them down. idk off hand what one they are referring to specifically. Nor do I! Hence my asking, I'm sure I can google but I feel it's best for the health of the thread to draw someone making statements regarding it instead of googling and drawing my own conclusions as it becomes an unchallenged thing in the thread
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Jan 25, 2022 06:30
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lol guys just let Neurolimal reply with sources to Epic High Five's original response
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Jan 25, 2022 06:32
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Epic High Five posted:Nor do I! Hence my asking, I'm sure I can google but I feel it's best for the health of the thread to draw someone making statements regarding it instead of googling and drawing my own conclusions as it becomes an unchallenged thing in the thread yknow you can just probate him and call him an idiot without having to go through all these steps?
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Jan 25, 2022 06:33
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Herstory Begins Now posted:yknow you can just probate him and call him an idiot without having to go through all these steps? If I were to start probating people for merely being stupid and insane, I'd never be able to do reports because I would myself be constantly probated. It's not a sustainable model. Much simpler to just ask people to elaborate on the things they say imho
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Jan 25, 2022 06:37
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Epic High Five posted:If I were to start probating people for merely being stupid and insane, I'd never be able to do reports because I would myself be constantly probated. It's not a sustainable model. Much simpler to just ask people to elaborate on the things they say imho quote:---Good discussion requires good information, something that is increasingly hard to come by in the age of 140 character non sequiturs and blogging grifters presenting as experts. Make an effort to vet your sources before you post them, and when you do make sure that you make clear the following: who is the source, what do they have to say, and why should they be considered valid. If you're posting commentary on an article, make the effort to also post the article in question, not just a screenshot of the bit being commented on. It should go without saying, but you should also read articles before you post them; you may be punished if an article doesn't say what you claim it says. This is straight from D&D rules. My understanding was that D&D was for "serious" talk while if you want to poo poo post you always have CSPAM. If that isn't the case, imma start poo poo posting too. This also isn't the first time you have engaged and effectively allowed bad faith discussion. Your post here https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3466532&userid=167573#post520818729 green lit a 5+ page derail on "what is authoritarianism" with every drive-by poster coming in and defining anything and everything as authoritarian to say every government is authoritarian before another mod had to come in and probate multiple people - some for a day - before the shitshow stopped. I get that modding is a thankless task and this will be one of that rare occasions in my long time posting on SA where I feel a mod has definitely contributed to thread making GBS threads, in a sub forum where we are supposed to try and have a real discussion. edit: To be clear, this isn't someone reading a long article and coming to the wrong conclusion over details. This guy either didn't read it at all and posted it as fact, or wilfully misconstrued what the World Food Programme said in order to further his thread making GBS threads. This is why I am annoyed.
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Jan 25, 2022 07:14
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MikeC posted:This is straight from D&D rules. My understanding was that D&D was for "serious" talk while if you want to poo poo post you always have CSPAM. If that isn't the case, imma start poo poo posting too. This also isn't the first time you have engaged and effectively allowed bad faith discussion. Your post here https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3466532&userid=167573#post520818729 green lit a 5+ page derail on "what is authoritarianism" with every drive-by poster coming in and defining anything and everything as authoritarian to say every government is authoritarian before another mod had to come in and probate multiple people - some for a day - before the shitshow stopped. fwiw I don't think discussing the definition of authoritarianism was a troll, it did produce some good discussion and great posts, three of which I grabbed as good examples though there's probably more I'd highlight given time to review: your own MikeC post here - https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3466532&pagenumber=657#post520839082 Smeef - https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3466532&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=658#post520845727 and I thought this one was a really interesting approach that didn't invoke "authoritarianism" but basically describes it in the specific Chinese context as a set of "tradeoffs" - Beefeater1980 - https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3466532&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=658#post520852203 Also, Koos Group has said there will be a feedback thread this weekend, so then would be a good time to bring up your concerns. Or you could PM Koos directly. Fritz the Horse fucked around with this message at 07:27 on Jan 25, 2022 |
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Jan 25, 2022 07:19
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MikeC posted:But as always, if people are dying and the US is even remotely involved in some way shape or form in that and/or not gloriously riding in like a benevolent white knight - its loving genocide by the US/West/Capitalism what have you. Would the 9.5 billion in assets currently frozen help or hinder securing food to withstand the drought? Are the imposition of sanctions likely to cause greater or fewer deaths? You are, however, correct; there are many, many examples of neoliberal governments committing genocide & ethnic cleansings that could also have been referenced. I simply figured one would suffice for making the point that this is not a uniquely 'authoritarian' phenomenon.
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Jan 25, 2022 08:17
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I hope China can materially help Afghanistan through this. The primary drivers of a famine can be difficult to establish as it is happening (and even after), but sanctions cannot possibly help. It is reckless to even imply that sanctions are warranted. Also, US occupation often neglected rural areas, which is why the Taliban had an easier time winning them over. That is another thing that China will hopefully help Afghanistan with.
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Jan 25, 2022 13:24
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drilldo squirt posted:Where's the united states committing genocide? https://theintercept.com/2022/01/09/afghanistan-sanctions-human-rights-hawks/ quote:While limited humanitarian exceptions for trade have been carved out in recent weeks, the World Health Organization has already warned that up to 1 million Afghan children may die as a result of malnutrition over this winter if drastic steps are not taken. Children are already bearing the brunt of the humanitarian catastrophe, punctuated by horrifying stories of kids being sold to pay for food. And the country’s notoriously harsh winter is already taking a toll: Afghans are freezing to death as they flee the country with their families. https://www.wfp.org/emergencies/yemen-emergency quote:The current level of hunger in Yemen is unprecedented and is causing severe hardship for millions of people. Despite ongoing humanitarian assistance, 16.2 million Yemenis are food insecure. Pockets of famine-like conditions have returned to Yemen for the first time in two years in Hajjah, Amran and Al Jawf, where nearly 50,000 people are living in famine like conditions. Over 5 million people in Yemen are on the brink of famine as the conflict and economic decline have left families struggling to find enough food to get through the day. MikeC posted:That is the source for the 1 million claim. The cause is due to poor economic management since the Taliban took over and now a severe drought has ruined the harvest this year. The Taliban for obvious reasons is a pariah government. It isn't getting any significant help. US sanctions definitely aren't helping but it isn't the primary driver for these issues. The WFP document which is the source for the stories mentions sanctions exactly once in its press release - and in no way shape or form is it the primary driver of it. It has pretty much nothing to do with the Taliban. The US intentionally built up a regime that was completely dependent on western aid and then when the Taliban took over the US and its western allies pulled the rug out from under them. Obviously the Taliban don't have the ability to completely transform Afghan's material conditions and make it self-sufficient on a dime, no government would be able to. So now people are literally freezing and starving to death as a direct result of the US's sanctions. Sanctions which must be considered genocide, if we are to follow the general definition of genocide given in this thread. Red and Black fucked around with this message at 15:22 on Jan 25, 2022 |
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Jan 25, 2022 15:16
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In slightly lighter China news... Fight Club gets a new ending in China - and the authorities win A new version of the movie available to Chinese audiences transforms the anarchist message of the original https://www.theguardian.com/film/2022/jan/25/fight-club-gets-a-new-ending-in-china-and-the-authorities-win quote:The ending to David Fincher’s 1999 cult classic film Fight Club has been changed in China, sparking outrage among fans. https://twitter.com/Lulamaybelle/status/1485736256684257281?s=20 It's almost farcically heavy-handed  But yeah CCP censorship seems to be cracking down ever-harder on everything. I just can't see it as a sign of a healthy society / polity. What is there to be afraid of?
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Jan 25, 2022 16:54
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How are u posted:In slightly lighter China news... It sounds closer to the source, according to the Wikipedia summary of the novel: quote:With Tyler gone, the narrator waits for the bomb to explode and kill him. The bomb malfunctions because Tyler mixed paraffin into the explosives. Still alive and holding Tyler's gun, the narrator makes the first decision that is truly his own: he puts the gun in his mouth and shoots himself. Some time later, he awakens in a mental hospital, believing he is in Heaven, and imagines an argument with God over human nature. The book ends with the narrator being approached by hospital employees who reveal themselves to be Project members. They tell him their plans still continue, and that they are expecting Tyler to come back. The man was clearly in dire need of help and at serious risk to himself and others.
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Jan 25, 2022 16:56
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How are u posted:It's almost farcically heavy-handed PRC censorship has been like that for a while. It's sporadically enforced, but the general attitude is that you shouldn't glorify crime or antisocial behavior or messages that are critical or government or law and order. So, if somebody commits a crime, they should be punished by the end of the film, good people should be rewarded, bad people should be punished, the police should be portrayed positively, authority figures should be portrayed positively, etc. If you think of the old American Hays Code, you won't be all that far off Chinese film censorship guidelines.
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Jan 25, 2022 17:11
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Fritz the Horse posted:fwiw I don't think discussing the definition of authoritarianism was a troll, it did produce some good discussion and great posts, three of which I grabbed as good examples though there's probably more I'd highlight given time to review: It wasn't a troll, but my prompting and timing were pretty poor in retrospect and I intend to do better in that regard going forward How are u posted:In slightly lighter China news... It's probably worth pointing out that, aside from the "brave cops" thing, this is actually pretty close to the book ending, not that I think that's what they were going for
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Jan 25, 2022 17:14
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Epic High Five posted:It's probably worth pointing out that, aside from the "brave cops" thing, this is actually pretty close to the book ending I'm actually not sure why that's worth pointing out unless you do think that it had something to do with the change. The book and the film are two separate pieces of art. However, if the CCP censors have found a new commitment to the integrity of source material vis a vi artistic translations then somebody has to get them in touch with Rafe Judkins, showrunner of Amazon's new Wheel of Time series 
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Jan 25, 2022 17:30
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It's also not at all close to the book ending - what a weird thing to bring up. The book ending is that the bombing fails due to the protagonist being incompetent at bomb-making, but the secret society's infiltration of bougie polity continues with the implication that it's been so successful it's now endemic. It does not glorify or validate the state - it's a joke about a grand anarchist plot that is thwarted by tripping over its own feet. Even then, the implication is that in the future, there'll probably be a successful bombing, because the ideas that propelled the first one are powerful, rooted in some kind of truth, and aren't going away. This ending is, "the police heroically arrest everyone, save the day, and the disruptive criminal Tyler Durden (who, let's be clear, does not exist in the text of the movie) is arrested and sent to a lunatic asylum until he is cured of his subversive tendencies". It's downright goofy in how much boot it licks.
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Jan 25, 2022 17:45
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How are u posted:It's almost farcically heavy-handed Losing funding if your department can't prove it's active and needed. Just like with the internet censorship, it's worth remembering that most of the censorship has more to do with internal government politics than it really does with anything external. Sadly that means it's only ever going to increase in order to ensure funding continues to increase.
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Jan 25, 2022 21:23
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