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CRUSTY MINGE posted:It's not. Pennsylvania took highway repair and maintenance funds and gave it to the cops instead. That is an incredibly simplistic view of how transportation infrastructure funding works in this state.
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Jan 29, 2022 15:07
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/\ Cops taking road money is not new. It just had consequences this time. I'm going to continue to blame the cops. Like with this here, where a Colorado Springs cop murdered a shoplifter. KKTV 11 News: DA's Office rules Colorado Springs officer was justified in use of deadly force with shoplifting suspect. https://www.kktv.com/2022/01/28/das-office-rules-colorado-springs-officer-was-justified-use-deadly-force-with-shoplifting-suspect/ quote:COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. (KKTV) - The 4th Judicial District Attorney’s Office announced an officer was justified with using deadly force following a shooting on Oct. 3, 2021 in Colorado Springs. Cop literally murdered someone for walmart poo poo. That used to be the walmart I'd go to for groceries. CRUSTY MINGE fucked around with this message at 15:10 on Jan 29, 2022 |
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Jan 29, 2022 15:07
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The funny thing is PA actually has a Rapid Bridge Replacement program. I did some work related to it (very peripheral). https://www.penndot.gov/ProjectAndPrograms/p3forpa/pages/rapid-bridge-replacement-project.aspx I will say, while slow as poo poo originally, it’s gotten better, and the two new bridges near me that go redone are really nice and modern and wider. This all predates the infrastructure bill of course.
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Jan 29, 2022 15:09
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Marshal Prolapse posted:The funny thing is PA actually has a Rapid Bridge Replacement program. I did some work related to it (very peripheral). It was a Design-Bid-Build program for some 500 bridges that could be built with expediency. The Fern Hollow Bridge (Forbes Avenue over Frick Park) is a way different scenario. The fault is definitely not on funding. A catastrophic failure of a bridge of this type doesn't just "happen".
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Jan 29, 2022 15:11
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You're right that it doesn't "just" happen. Rust takes time.
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Jan 29, 2022 15:12
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SquirrelyPSU posted:The fault is definitely not on funding. A catastrophic failure of a bridge of this type doesn't just "happen". Could you elaborate on this? It seems like an odd dichotomy because it seems like deficient maintenance funding could absolutely cause catastrophic bridge failures. Unless you mean another kind of funding altogether.
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Jan 29, 2022 15:14
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CRUSTY MINGE posted:You're right that it doesn't "just" happen. Rust takes time. Which is why there is an incredibly rigorous inspection program which goes beyond national inspection standards and I'm licensed to perform? I will almost guarantee that what caused this failure is that someone hosed up and should have closed the bridge and didn't. Vincent Van Goatse posted:Could you elaborate on this? It seems like an odd dichotomy because it seems like deficient maintenance funding could absolutely cause catastrophic bridge failures. Unless you mean another kind of funding altogether. Sure. All bridges have defects of some kind. All bridges over 20' are inspected every two years unless they are in such pristine condition that that interval can be extended if certain boxes are checked and they are pretty much in pristine condition. Bonus points if they aren't over water. Keeping bridges infinitely pristine is obviously infinitely expensive so there is a 12 year program to track and fund construction projects to manage that cost. e: Useful resource for National bridge inspection data (read: not locally owned bridges typically) https://bridgereports.com/ SquirrelyPSU fucked around with this message at 15:21 on Jan 29, 2022 |
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Jan 29, 2022 15:15
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SquirrelyPSU posted:It was a Design-Bid-Build program for some 500 bridges that could be built with expediency. The Fern Hollow Bridge (Forbes Avenue over Frick Park) is a way different scenario. The fault is definitely not on funding. A catastrophic failure of a bridge of this type doesn't just "happen". Right, I just wanted to point out that PA actually has a program for it and this is very much an aberration. Edit:For VVG http://www.parapidbridges.com Edit2X: I default to PSU for any bridge questions further. He clearly has a poo poo ton of experience.
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Jan 29, 2022 15:15
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SquirrelyPSU posted:Which is why there is an incredibly rigorous inspection program which goes beyond national inspection standards and I'm licensed to perform? That's a problem on a national scale. Like the Memphis I-40 bridge last year. It's not always just inspectors, it's their bosses who choose to ignore the warning signs too. And then whoever decides what projects get money. I say I-40 bridge because the damage was noted in inspections years prior to it becoming public knowledge thanks to a guy in a canoe.
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Jan 29, 2022 15:18
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CRUSTY MINGE posted:That's a problem on a national scale. Like the Memphis I-40 bridge last year. It's not always just inspectors, it's their bosses who choose to ignore the warning signs too. And then whoever decides what projects get money. Right, so someone hosed up and didn't do their job.
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Jan 29, 2022 15:21
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SquirrelyPSU posted:Sure. All bridges have defects of some kind. All bridges over 20' are inspected every two years unless they are in such pristine condition that that interval can be extended if certain boxes are checked and they are pretty much in pristine condition. Bonus points if they aren't over water. Keeping bridges infinitely pristine is obviously infinitely expensive so there is a 12 year program to track and fund construction projects to manage that cost. Thank you. So it's still a huge problem, just not one where, to put it crudely, someone adjusted the maintenance funding slider too far down in the simulation?
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Jan 29, 2022 15:22
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Yeah, that’s not very typical. I’d like to make that point. Well how is it untypical? Well there are a lot of bridges sitting around the state all the time, and very seldom does anything like this happen. I just don’t want people thinking that bridges aren’t safe. Was this bridge safe? Well I was thinking more about the other ones. The ones that are safe? Yeah the ones that don’t fall down. Well if this wasn’t safe, why did it have cars on it? Well I’m not saying that it wasn’t safe. It just perhaps wasn’t quite as safe as some of the other ones.
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Jan 29, 2022 15:24
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SquirrelyPSU posted:Right, so someone hosed up and didn't do their job. For about 4 years iirc. At least the guy in the canoe was posting pics of it being broken and iirc was quoted as having reported it to Arkansas DOT at the time / tagged them in tweets of the damage etc.
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Jan 29, 2022 15:24
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SquirrelyPSU posted:Right, so someone hosed up and didn't do their job. Right, but it could have been someone higher up than an inspector. Maybe someone in charge of a budget, who decides what gets fixed based on funding, and can't afford to do everything they want while also probably having several more, larger fires to put out with the money. Siphoning off roads money to give to cops is definitely a part of this problem.
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Jan 29, 2022 15:26
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That Works posted:For about 4 years iirc. At least the guy in the canoe was posting pics of it being broken and iirc was quoted as having reported it to Arkansas DOT at the time / tagged them in tweets of the damage etc. In Pennsylvania, if you are inspecting a bridge and you see something that could potentially result in failure such as this, you close the road and go up the chain until you hit 911 or someone answers the phone. Someone is losing their license and getting sued for this.
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Jan 29, 2022 15:26
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Look guys, it was a systemic failure, we can't actually hold anyone accountable. Mistakes were made, sure, but can we really prevent every bridge from falling?
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Jan 29, 2022 15:27
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SquirrelyPSU posted:Someone is losing their license and getting sued for this. I hope you're right, but it's not like this bridge was unknown to the city/county, what with that picture tweet, the opening and closing of a file on it, etc. Odds are it'll be swept under the rug once all the victims' cars are replaced and a new bridge is installed.
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Jan 29, 2022 15:32
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Thank you. So it's still a huge problem, just not one where, to put it crudely, someone adjusted the maintenance funding slider too far down in the simulation? No, that definitely happened too. Just over the last several decades when the Pennsylvania government tied PennDOT's funding to the gas tax, and not "lol cops". CRUSTY MINGE posted:I hope you're right, but it's not like this bridge was unknown to the city/county, what with that picture tweet, the opening and closing of a file on it, etc. Odds are it'll be swept under the rug once all the victims' cars are replaced and a new bridge is installed. There is no loving chance of that happening. This is going to be used as a case study for decades. e: I'll wager my paycheck that there are 20 people at PennDOT running reports right now looking for similar structures and reading old inspection reports. SquirrelyPSU fucked around with this message at 15:35 on Jan 29, 2022 |
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Jan 29, 2022 15:32
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I don't doubt that people are reviewing records right now, I just doubt anything will come of it. If Biden wasn't going to Pennsylvania that day, do you think this would have made national news? Aside from maybe a quick blurb, I doubt it.
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Jan 29, 2022 15:37
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CRUSTY MINGE posted:I don't doubt that people are reviewing records right now, I just doubt anything will come of it. National? No, but honestly might still have if Fetterman showed up wearing shorts. He basically lives down the street (<5 miles IIRC). But I know PennDOT, I know every bridge collapse since in the commonwealth since there was a DOT, and know what the response was. I also know the Chief Bridge Engineer, and that man is basically Napolean, the Bridge Engineer. e: I just asked someone I know what are the chances that he is currently standing menacingly at a lecturne with a bullhorn while his department is frantically running reports. The guess was probably 120%.
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Jan 29, 2022 15:40
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We need to transition to a vehicle-miles-traveled tax before sales of electric vehicles become the norm so as to not gut infrastructure/transit funding where it comes from gas taxes. Especially as electrics are heavy as poo poo and even worse on road infrastructure than ICE cars. While we're at it, we might transition to denser built environments more suited to alternate modes of transportation 
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Jan 29, 2022 15:46
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I hope you're right. Also glad you have an insider perspective, and thank you for sharing it.
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Jan 29, 2022 15:46
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https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/elections/pennsylvania-court-tosses-state-s-mail-voting-law-n1288170
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Jan 29, 2022 15:48
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CRUSTY MINGE posted:I hope you're right. Also glad you have an insider perspective, and thank you for sharing it. You're welcome, happy to share. Sorry to get defensive, but I actually take pride in my work and the reason for doing it, and I think so does the majority of my industry. Cugel the Clever posted:We need to transition to a vehicle-miles-traveled tax before sales of electric vehicles become the norm so as to not gut infrastructure/transit funding where it comes from gas taxes. Especially as electrics are heavy as poo poo and even worse on road infrastructure than ICE cars. And tolling 8 bridges to fund their replacement, a proposal so dumb that between it and the COVID response it's going to almost guarantee giving the governorship to the Republicans this year, and probably cost the entire leadership at PennDOT their jobs. SquirrelyPSU fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Jan 29, 2022 |
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Jan 29, 2022 15:48
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SquirrelyPSU posted:In Pennsylvania, if you are inspecting a bridge and you see something that could potentially result in failure such as this, you close the road and go up the chain until you hit 911 or someone answers the phone. Someone is losing their license and getting sued for this. Yeah, I remember this occurring with I want to say the blue route, a section of it, near King of Prussia a few years ago. I just remember them closing it down out of nowhere and being surprised to see something like that happen so quickly. Which I should say is a very good thing. Pine Cone Jones posted:https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/elections/pennsylvania-court-tosses-state-s-mail-voting-law-n1288170 PA Supreme Court will be flexing on them for that, as they’ve already ruled it OK numerous times.
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Jan 29, 2022 15:50
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Cugel the Clever posted:We need to transition to a vehicle-miles-traveled tax before sales of electric vehicles become the norm so as to not gut infrastructure/transit funding where it comes from gas taxes. Especially as electrics are heavy as poo poo and even worse on road infrastructure than ICE cars. If you're going to make the effort to change how road taxes are implemented, why not also scale them based on vehicle weight? Why should someone driving a 1 ton Yaris be charged as much as someone a 4.5 ton Hummer EV?
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Jan 29, 2022 15:55
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:If you're going to make the effort to change how road taxes are implemented, why not also scale them based on vehicle weight? Why should someone driving a 1 ton Yaris be charged as much as someone a 4.5 ton Hummer EV? Because that would be socialism and class warfare and lead to Trans Minnie Mouse Candy’s. 
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Jan 29, 2022 15:58
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The HUMMER causes four hundred times as much damage to roads.
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Jan 29, 2022 15:59
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:If you're going to make the effort to change how road taxes are implemented, why not also scale them based on vehicle weight? Why should someone driving a 1 ton Yaris be charged as much as someone a 4.5 ton Hummer EV? In other news: https://twitter.com/thedailybeast/status/1487198844693663745?t=kFdyjQIN4MMDaalGg3n58Q&s=19
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Jan 29, 2022 16:00
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Cugel the Clever posted:Seems sensible. Higher impact warrants higher cost. Someone’s going to ADX Florence! Actually they’ll probably just stick them in a standard max security one, if it was simple dumb rear end empty threats by a mentally ill person.
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Jan 29, 2022 16:01
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Marshal Prolapse posted:Yeah, I remember this occurring with I want to say the blue route, a section of it, near King of Prussia a few years ago. I just remember them closing it down out of nowhere and being surprised to see something like that happen so quickly. Which I should say is a very good thing. Also rule #1 for why you do not inspect lovely bridges on Friday Afternoons. e: A little after the fact, but I recall this being for a sinkhole because I remember cringing audibly. SquirrelyPSU fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Jan 29, 2022 |
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Jan 29, 2022 16:02
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Platystemon posted:The HUMMER causes four hundred times as much damage to roads. and ~20 times less than a tractor trailer, which are 1,000x more prevelant on roadways. Passenger vehicles, regardless of type, are not "typically" considered for pavement and bridge design outside of specialized considerations. e: I should have said "are not typically the controlling design criteria for loading or fatigue and fracture design"
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Jan 29, 2022 16:10
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Marshal Prolapse posted:Because that would be socialism and class warfare and lead to Trans Minnie Mouse Candy’s. Those goddamn freeloading cyclists! 
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Jan 29, 2022 16:12
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Cugel the Clever posted:Seems sensible. Higher impact warrants higher cost. quote:he was intercepted by the Secret Service in the parking lot of a Cracker Barrel Definitely tracks.
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Jan 29, 2022 16:16
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SquirrelyPSU posted:Also rule #1 for why you do not inspect lovely bridges on Friday Afternoons. Yeah, but in the end the fact they did it and didn’t dick around is actually something to be quite happy about. Platystemon posted:Those goddamn freeloading cyclists! Burn the Heretics! Marshal Prolapse fucked around with this message at 16:37 on Jan 29, 2022 |
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Jan 29, 2022 16:17
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Marshal Prolapse posted:Yeah, but in the end the fact they did it and didn’t ick around us actually something to be quite happy. I meant more so for the inspector, because its a pain in the rear end to report emergencies at 4PM on a Friday without calling 911.
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Jan 29, 2022 16:18
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SquirrelyPSU posted:I meant more so for the inspector, because its a pain in the rear end to report emergencies at 4PM on a Friday without calling 911. Oh I understand I just meant that the system as a whole working as it is supposed to, being nice.
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Jan 29, 2022 16:40
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Yinz wanna see a cute cat? https://i.imgur.com/5dpahn2.mp4
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Jan 29, 2022 16:49
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Platystemon posted:Yinz wanna see a cute cat? Look, we get it. The Bengals are good and the Steelers are bad. 
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Jan 29, 2022 17:07
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Cugel the Clever posted:Seems sensible. Higher impact warrants higher cost. Respect to whoever picked the photo for this tweet.
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