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A Buttery Pastry posted:Paradox should just bite the bullet and go with period appropriate terms like enlightened, civilized, half civilized, barbarous, and savage. And then have those terms be country dependent, so a Qing player sees the Brits as barbarous. This way the Qing and Korea can do whatever diplomacy they like, and get real offended when the Brits come in and gently caress everything up, while no European really gives a poo poo. Click "Civilization" Map and see this: 
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Feb 2, 2022 23:12
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That is one aggressively racist map. Every time I look at it I find something else that disgusts me, like how Ethiopia is denoted as following "corrupt Christianity". Not to mention the borders are garbage, even for the time.
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Feb 2, 2022 23:37
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I like the little insets for Central Europe and Oceania, especially because they could have just increased the size of the map for Oceania. I like how it has 'Prussia' and 'Part of Prussia'. This is the first time I heard it called 'Tartary'.
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Feb 2, 2022 23:57
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Really? It used to be pretty common a name for the region.
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Feb 3, 2022 00:10
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Ever wonder why steak tartare is called that? Now you know.
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Feb 3, 2022 02:38
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yep, those barbaric mongols/tartars would tenderize meat under their saddles as they rode and then ate it raw!!!!!! (note that this claim came from someone who never went to, or met anyone from central asia, there are basically no dishes from that part of the world that could even be mistaken for it, and as far as anyone can tell the modern dish seems to come from the fact that people liked eating their Hamburg steak raw, and then someone put tartar sauce on it.)
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Feb 3, 2022 02:59
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I knew of the Tartars but I assumed they were an ethnic group. Good to learn something new.
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Feb 3, 2022 03:25
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fuf posted:If this is the case then it really is just straight up Eurocentrism, which I am pretty sure they are keen to avoid. the game can't evolve that much that fast, is the primary thing to realize here. unless you were playing multiplayer with all-player asia and all-AI europe or something. victoria is much less open than CK or EU, but more so than HoI, because of the relative length of the game. a game of v3 is only 100-ish years long, and it's the 100 years where europe really had a genuine crushing advantage against the rest of the world, although not for the reasons they believed they did. also, i'm pretty sure that recognition isn't about sucking up to europe, it's about showing strength. in any case where the powers of asia were on top, they would have become recognized on the way up. europe is not "giving" recognition, they are forced to recognize that a non-european power is on a level playing field with them
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Feb 3, 2022 07:24
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Paradox should just bite the bullet and go with period appropriate terms like enlightened, civilized, half civilized, barbarous, and savage. And then have those terms be country dependent, so a Qing player sees the Brits as barbarous. This way the Qing and Korea can do whatever diplomacy they like, and get real offended when the Brits come in and gently caress everything up, while no European really gives a poo poo. I like this, it could do a good job of representing that at game start a lot of the world has a very narrow view of what matters (horizon ends 50km out from the capital), and then as the century goes on it changes, as countries potentially win and get to enforce their world view on everyone else, or lose, get absorbed into the global consensus and develop a robust anti-colonial literature.
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Feb 3, 2022 07:52
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Re unrecognised countries, since a stated design goal of the game is that everything you can gain through warfare should be achievable via diplomacy, I would assume you can become recognised without winning a war against a European. Presumably you'd like, industrialise and then send out diplomatic missions to the British, or gain a significant role in global trade, or take a booth out at a worlds fair or something. I'm just glad they got rid of westernisation because waiting for bars to fill up for 1/3 of the game before I can engage with most of the mechanics is very boring.
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Feb 3, 2022 09:23
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Red Bones posted:Re unrecognised countries, since a stated design goal of the game is that everything you can gain through warfare should be achievable via diplomacy, I would assume you can become recognised without winning a war against a European. Or even just a successful diplomatic play, if it's impactful enough (I don't know how that would theoretically be measured), could do it. An assertive enough unrecognised Japan successfully making a play on the Russian far East during an inopportune time and walking away with territorial gains could be enough to have the rest of the world take notice even without it coming to blows.
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Feb 3, 2022 09:45
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 Colonization Dev Diary!I really like that there aren't empty parts of the map, just "decentralized nations" and even they can do things like get a rival colonial power to mess with you.
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Feb 3, 2022 18:47
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DrSunshine posted:Click "Civilization" Map and see this: I like how all of Europe is "enlightened" and Denmark is just "civilized".
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Feb 3, 2022 23:42
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The Mediterranean countries too. Those Meds are lazy, they lack the Proper Protestant Work Ethic after all!
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Feb 3, 2022 23:51
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Paradox should just bite the bullet and go with period appropriate terms like enlightened, civilized, half civilized, barbarous, and savage. And then have those terms be country dependent, so a Qing player sees the Brits as barbarous. This way the Qing and Korea can do whatever diplomacy they like, and get real offended when the Brits come in and gently caress everything up, while no European really gives a poo poo. This is a cool idea in principle and it could work in a way that trended towards countries recognizing everyone or almost everyone else by 1936. It would require a complete rework and turn Vicky into a very different game though.
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Feb 3, 2022 23:55
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Minenfeld! posted:I like how all of Europe is "enlightened" and Denmark is just "civilized". Broken clock
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Feb 3, 2022 23:57
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Great Powers jumping in on other GPs' diplomatic plays with Unrecognised nations is very exciting. Should provide lots of opportunities for friction between the GPs and might be a fun balancing act to manage when decentralised countries become playable
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Feb 4, 2022 01:41
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NeverHelm posted:The Mediterranean countries too. Those Meds are lazy, they lack the Proper Protestant Work Ethic after all! Individual Russian cities radiate enlightenment though.
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Feb 4, 2022 02:18
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https://twitter.com/buckadeath/status/1489172402407981056 God I hope grandpa makes it to see V3.
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Feb 4, 2022 06:36
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Eiba posted:
I am playing V2 at the moment and I really hope there is some kind of mechanic to make it easier/faster to colonise a province if you're right next to it. Nothing is worse than sitting next to an empty plot of land for 50 years as an African country, and then have GB steal it because you are forbidden from colonising. I have never played V2 before this and there are some cool parts of this game, and other parts that are very dumb. People keep unsphering me as a secondary power and then not doing anything else, so it just periodically fucks up my economy and alliances. The global beef and tinned foods markets collapsed and I couldn't build an army. America stole Panama from me to build a canal and I never even got the option to turn them down. I hope these issues are addressed in V3. Playing as the USCA and clawing my way back from the brink and into secondary power status has been pretty neat though.
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Feb 4, 2022 09:00
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If nothing else there's no arbitrary 'only great/secondary powers can colonize' or 'you need machine guns in order to colonize' gates so that's nice. And, to be fair, 'America stole Panama and I can't do anything about it' is a fairly accurate depiction of what actually happened, really.
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Feb 4, 2022 09:12
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Hellioning posted:If nothing else there's no arbitrary 'only great/secondary powers can colonize' or 'you need machine guns in order to colonize' gates so that's nice. This is true, but I would hope in V3 that there's at least an option for me to build it myself, or to reject the US demand and start a war over it. TBH my main takeaway from trying out V2 is I'm relieved they're apparently adding more levels of playability in V3 for vassal nations/protectorates/colonies, because (as is historically accurate) the GPs have such a big military and technological advantage that if you don't play as a big country, or a country that can get big fairly easily, you sort of inevitably get invaded and flattened. At least in V3 if this happens, hopefully the game continues through playing as a vassal/colony/etc instead of just pushing you into a losing spiral.
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Feb 4, 2022 12:38
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Red Bones posted:This is true, but I would hope in V3 that there's at least an option for me to build it myself, or to reject the US demand and start a war over it.
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Feb 4, 2022 13:14
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Red Bones posted:This is true, but I would hope in V3 that there's at least an option for me to build it myself, or to reject the US demand and start a war over it. There's a dev diary that I'll find later that goes into this specifically, where sometimes it's in your interest to court a GP into sphering you so you can buy arms and expect protection from them, and still have negotiating advantage against being devoured completely. By all accounts V3 is set up to give you precisely what you want.
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Feb 4, 2022 13:30
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One thing I noticed is that it said that colonising is a lot harder until you invent certain medicines. Which obviously makes sense for Europeans coming from outside, that was a huge problem for them in real life. Weird if that's a roadblock for people who already live in that area and try to expand though.
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Feb 4, 2022 13:43
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DaysBefore posted:One thing I noticed is that it said that colonising is a lot harder until you invent certain medicines. Which obviously makes sense for Europeans coming from outside, that was a huge problem for them in real life. Weird if that's a roadblock for people who already live in that area and try to expand though. I'd you live in that area, you'd presumably wage war to expand. I do not know but I suspect that there are not very many centralized nations there.
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Feb 4, 2022 15:20
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Yeah for sure at that stage, I was thinking more if you are a local power who centralises and catches up technologically, it'd be a weird arbitrary blocker when local diseases wouldn't be as much of an issue for local peoples (comparitively, of course)
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Feb 4, 2022 15:26
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That's a really interesting point. It would be weird if you had the malaria penalties as an African centralized nation. But it would also be weird to give a country a buff based on their race. There are already a fair number of playable centralized nations in Africa, at least in the build this screenshot came from:  Edit: If they've already determined which provinces are malarial, maybe the malaria penalty could be based on if your capital, or if the majority of your cores are themselves malarial to begin with. If you've got the malaria penalty in your capital, or "homeland" or whatever, you wouldn't need medicine to overcome the penalty. I think that would prevent, for instance, the Boer states from getting around malaria, but would allow actual African states to expand into their similarly malarial neighbors. And if you do some shenanigans like shifting your capital to such a province, well, you've got a population that's used to dealing with malaria, one way or another. Eiba fucked around with this message at 15:42 on Feb 4, 2022 |
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Feb 4, 2022 15:35
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Maybe just remove the penalty if you capital is in the continent you're colonizing. It would miss corner cases like if Haiti was colonizing Africa, but that's gotta be rare anyway. E: derp, beaten
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Feb 4, 2022 15:44
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Diseases, among other factors, still were problems for “locals,” just not as big as “land an army on Haiti and everyone dies in a year.” It’s not like malaria doesn’t take a grievous toll on people long native to malarial areas. Especially for the very generous definition of local here. The Sahel or Ethiopia had aggressive territorial states and they still often didn’t gently caress with Benin, let alone expand southwest into the Congo. Similarly the Kongo kingdom clung to the coast (mostly of modern Angola not the countries named Congo) and no interior Congo states akin to Ethiopia or the Sahel arose. Ideally it should be fun to be say Sokoto or Ethiopia and not bother to immediately start Europeing your way through Africa until you reach the point where you’re playing geopolitics game with the colonial powers. That could very well mean getting machine guns and medicine, ideally not as arbitrary as it is in 2 though. Good news is V3 seems to be aiming that you can go full Japan, or just never conquer a province and establish Gay Solomonic Space Communism. Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 16:26 on Feb 4, 2022 |
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Feb 4, 2022 16:24
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Malaria is basically shorthand for 'various tropical diseases' and being immune to one set doesn't necessarily mean you're immune to them all. The idea is that penalties from it aren't applied to Pops/Countries that consider the State to be a Cultural Homeland (it's admittedly a little weird to tie it to culture, but it's the only real mechanic we have for 'these people are from here').
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Feb 4, 2022 16:47
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Wiz posted:Malaria is basically shorthand for 'various tropical diseases' and being immune to one set doesn't necessarily mean you're immune to them all. The idea is that penalties from it aren't applied to Pops/Countries that consider the State to be a Cultural Homeland (it's admittedly a little weird to tie it to culture, but it's the only real mechanic we have for 'these people are from here').
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Feb 4, 2022 17:10
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Eiba posted:There will be logistical/environmental issues eventually that it would research medicine to mitigate, but you can overcome those issues in your backyard at least. I'm hoping this ties into the transportation infrastructure system they've been talking about as well.
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Feb 4, 2022 17:51
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Has there been a botes update yet? I want to know about building the incredibly expensive boondoggle that is a Navy.
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Feb 4, 2022 17:53
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OPAONI posted:Has there been a botes update yet? I want to know about building the incredibly expensive boondoggle that is a Navy. I think this is the most we've gotten: https://www.victoria3game.com/en/news/dev-diary-24-navies-and-admirals
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Feb 4, 2022 17:56
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This discussion reminds me that it looks like Ethiopia is going to be a very fun place to start a game in V3. It's a knife fight in a phone booth and then when you're done you get to start worrying about Europeans coming and loving everything up.
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Feb 4, 2022 18:34
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Gonna do the Battle of Jutland the right way
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Feb 4, 2022 23:26
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The thing with Britain sniping a state from you that you've been wanting to colonized is ideally supposed to result in agitation for war. It'd be fun if in V3 this gets actually modelled a bit. Like your pops get a wave of jingoism and demands to declare war on specific nations because of minor slights. It'd be fun because then you could mod it for like Fantasy Warhammer and have like the Book of Grudges for Dwarves.
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Feb 6, 2022 20:38
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Fifty-four Forty or fight, all the time!
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Feb 6, 2022 20:44
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kw0134 posted:Fifty-four Forty or fight, all the time! Exactly!
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Feb 6, 2022 20:47
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