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Herstory Begins Now posted:coercing someone who doesn't consent to sex with you into having sex with you is sexual assault (and with zero ambiguity either). It's also rape. She's the one it happened to. If she wants to tell the story on her terms it feels like outrage at her not phrasing it sufficiently enlightened should be basically the last possible concern with things. She has repeatedly said she was not assaulted. However bad and wrong that makes her, it feels like a very bad look for everyone to go after the victim like a single weird quirk in how she likes her own story talked about to be treated like blood in the water to instantly switch the story to some weird doubt on her. Like she's changing her story or being unreliable. Like in 10 years maybe she can go to therapy and be taught she was actually assaulted. But treating her not liking that phrasing as her lying or being unreliable and changing her story is insane.
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Feb 10, 2022 03:00
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fart simpson posted:are you sure about this? from how i read it, in her original post she said she was coerced into having sex that night and the feelings she had for him 7 years previously kinda came back up and she got very confused about the whole thing but it sounds like she willingly kept up the affair for the next 3 years, like she explicitly said she started to love him again after that She was coerced into having a sexual relationship with a powerful married man and suddenly went absolutely quiet when it was reported and is now backing down from their statements. I don't think this is a healthy thing to argue was okay regardless because its still preying on her to get sex, regardless of "she eventually liked it and loved him" which is pretty hosed up.
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Feb 10, 2022 03:07
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It's like if some African American woman was talking about being shot by a police officer and called herself "colored", it's the wrong language and is seen as an offensive way to talk about it but literally it's so far from the point, she's talking about her own self. Being angry a rape victim is making a non-modern distinction for assault vs coercion is crazy. Like maybe if it was the perpetrator trying to explain it like he was less guilty it'd be something to be angry about. But when it's the victim acting like that is her changing her story or dismissing things is awful.
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Feb 10, 2022 03:11
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:She's the one it happened to. If she wants to tell the story on her terms it feels like outrage at her not phrasing it sufficiently enlightened should be basically the last possible concern with things. She has repeatedly said she was not assaulted. However bad and wrong that makes her, it feels like a very bad look for everyone to go after the victim like a single weird quirk in how she likes her own story talked about to be treated like blood in the water to instantly switch the story to some weird doubt on her. Like she's changing her story or being unreliable. assault =/= sexual assault dude, they're different things if you have sex (or engage in other sexual activity) with someone who doesn't consent to it, whether via coercion or force, that is sexual assault. Which, unless I'm grossly misremembering Peng's statement, is very much what she states happened.
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Feb 10, 2022 03:14
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CommieGIR posted:She was coerced into having a sexual relationship with a powerful married man and suddenly went absolutely quiet when it was reported and is now backing down from their statements. not saying it's okay, but i don't think it's accurate to say she was sexually assaulted for 3 years
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Feb 10, 2022 03:16
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fart simpson posted:not saying it's okay, but i don't think it's accurate to say she was sexually assaulted for 3 years If a man wielding power and influence uses their position to coerce someone into having sex with them, I suspect that still counts as sexual assault. After all, who is going to help you or even believe you? The problem was, as well, the reaction to when she finally said something: The stories quickly got taken down, dead silence from her, suddenly she comes back with a completely different story and even largely mum on who. That's not normal.
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Feb 10, 2022 03:17
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Okay? The actual woman feels that she was coerced but not assaulted. Maybe her stupid simple brain needs someone to explain there is no differance and she's wrong, but she hasn't ever recanted or changed her story, just reiterated that she feels the distinction that he did not physically attack her is important and she doesn't like when people say he did. Owlofcreamcheese posted:She's the one it happened to. If she wants to tell the story on her terms it feels like outrage at her not phrasing it sufficiently enlightened should be basically the last possible concern with things. She has repeatedly said she was not assaulted. However bad and wrong that makes her, it feels like a very bad look for everyone to go after the victim like a single weird quirk in how she likes her own story talked about to be treated like blood in the water to instantly switch the story to some weird doubt on her. Like she's changing her story or being unreliable. Owlofcreamcheese posted:It's like if some African American woman was talking about being shot by a police officer and called herself "colored", it's the wrong language and is seen as an offensive way to talk about it but literally it's so far from the point, she's talking about her own self. Being angry a rape victim is making a non-modern distinction for assault vs coercion is crazy. You are using an awful lot of loaded language on a difficult subject and I'm not sure I see anyone here making the arguments you're describing. Who here is going after her, saying she has a "stupid simple brain [needing] someone to explain," that she's bad and wrong or lying, needs therapy, etc?
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Feb 10, 2022 03:18
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fart simpson posted:not saying it's okay, but i don't think it's accurate to say she was sexually assaulted for 3 years There's kind of a breakdown in the terminology that we have to describe the situation. You can absolutely have multi-year non-consensual sexual relationships, eg ones predicated on something one party had no intention of ever honoring, 'you have to sleep with me if you want to get promotions/raises/advancement' or 'yes I'm totally planning to leave my wife for you' where that was a precondition for someone consenting. Though the criminality of the former is straightforward the latter is a bit more complicated (and/or certainly more complicated to prove). Still legal systems have conceptions of conditional consent, which most commonly comes up wrt consenting to sex with the condition of a condom, or in some other contexts, with the condition of payment, or the aforementioned promises of promotions or other benefits. Much more to the point, a multi-year sexual relationship predicated on some dishonest coercive bullshit that you were feeding a partner is just deeply hosed up, regardless of where local laws fall or how touchable you may or may not be by law enforcement.
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Feb 10, 2022 03:33
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Herstory Begins Now posted:There's kind of a breakdown in the terminology that we have to describe the situation. You can absolutely have multi-year non-consensual sexual relationships, eg ones predicated on something one party had no intention of ever honoring, 'you have to sleep with me if you want to get promotions/raises/advancement' or 'yes I'm totally planning to leave my wife for you' where that was a precondition for someone consenting. Though the criminality of the former is straightforward the latter is a bit more complicated (and/or certainly more complicated to prove). Still legal systems have conceptions of conditional consent, which most commonly comes up wrt consenting to sex with the condition of a condom, or in some other contexts, with the condition of payment, or the aforementioned promises of promotions or other benefits. i just went back to read her post again for the first time in months, and specifically what she was writing about sounds like your second example. she appears to actually like him and wants more out of the relationship, and he's aware of that and using those feelings to string her along without any real intention of divorcing his wife to be with her or anything like that. the instigating event for why she posted it seems to be she felt he had started ghosting her again like he did the first time around i mean, it's lovely but i don't think it makes sense to call that 3 years of sexual assault
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Feb 10, 2022 03:47
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Fritz the Horse posted:You are using an awful lot of loaded language on a difficult subject and I'm not sure I see anyone here making the arguments you're describing. Who here is going after her, saying she has a "stupid simple brain [needing] someone to explain," that she's bad and wrong or lying, needs therapy, etc? Like we all know she used the wrong word and her language is wrong. Explaining that over and over doesn’t help anything, telling me specifically assault is rape is great but I don’t have power to re-educate her that she isn’t using approved phrasing. Her being not quite perfect in feminist language should not exclude her from being listened to.
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Feb 10, 2022 04:20
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more just dictionary definitions in this case with you tho
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Feb 10, 2022 05:05
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Herstory Begins Now posted:more just dictionary definitions in this case with you tho Okay. Mail her a dictionary or something so she can repent her imperfect opinions. Don’t tell me. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 10, 2022 05:21
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e: nah
ronya fucked around with this message at 06:54 on Feb 10, 2022 |
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Feb 10, 2022 06:51
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CommieGIR posted:If a man wielding power and influence uses their position to coerce someone into having sex with them, I suspect that still counts as sexual assault. What if she, herself, objects to her relationship being characterized that way? Do we have an obligation to allow her to characterize the story as she chooses to, or is her personal opinion of what happened less important than how her experience contributes to the social phenomenon of rape culture? I'm not being rhetorical, by the way. I think there's legit a discussion to be had about whether or not an individual woman's agency is superceded by the interests of women as a whole! A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 07:31 on Feb 10, 2022 |
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Feb 10, 2022 06:55
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ronya posted:e: nah this was a really good, informative post and I'm a bit bummed you edited it but I'll respect your reasons for doing so
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Feb 10, 2022 07:24
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CommieGIR posted:If a man wielding power and influence uses their position to coerce someone into having sex with them, I suspect that still counts as sexual assault. why do you think it was a completely different story? what do you mean by that?
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Feb 10, 2022 08:13
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Remember everyone making fun of the 'ghost cities'? Westerners literally don't know what infrastructure is actually for anymore, it's been so long since any has been built at a reasonable pace and scale. Yeah. Wonderful places. Huge complexes built up, then instantly abandoned because a huge cash donation fell into Central Planning's lap from other sources so the govt sponsored development that was supposed to happen there happened on the other side of town instead. Which leaves us with once promising, nearly completed, major housing projects turned into entire square miles of unwired, unplumbed, un window glassed empty husks that nobody can, or will, live in. But they're still a good (only available) investment because nobody's going to make a /building/ disappear for months on end and dismantle it brick by brick under 'corruption' allegations (or rape! But #metoo is soooo 2018 so who cares about that anymore?) And we all /know/ housing bubbles only go 'up', especially when you need 2 or 3 empty apartments in your portfolio to even attract a wife with your unbalanced demographics. How's that doing for Evergrande again? Can I still make fun of those?
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Feb 10, 2022 08:52
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killer_robot posted:Yeah. Wonderful places. Huge complexes built up, then instantly abandoned because a huge cash donation fell into Central Planning's lap from other sources so the govt sponsored development that was supposed to happen there happened on the other side of town instead. Which leaves us with once promising, nearly completed, major housing projects turned into entire square miles of unwired, unplumbed, un window glassed empty husks that nobody can, or will, live in. But they're still a good (only available) investment because nobody's going to make a /building/ disappear for months on end and dismantle it brick by brick under 'corruption' allegations (or rape! But #metoo is soooo 2018 so who cares about that anymore?) And we all /know/ housing bubbles only go 'up', especially when you need 2 or 3 empty apartments in your portfolio to even attract a wife with your unbalanced demographics. You may make any argument you like in D&D provided you are willing to support it with reasoning and some degree of evidence if asked. You should not attack other posters personally, but instead engage with their arguments. Posts should be informative, interesting, or funny. They should not repeat tired or disproven arguments.
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Feb 10, 2022 09:05
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killer_robot posted:
Well speaking of which: https://www.scmp.com/business/article/3166435/china-evergrande-vows-build-600000-homes-2022-and-fully-restore-operations It seems like the plan is 'dig up, stupid'. The company is betting that the government won't deflate the housing bubble. Speaking of which: https://twitter.com/Birdyword/status/1491280027937546241 That's definitely a bubble.
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Feb 10, 2022 10:20
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The Covid situation in HK is proooobably beyond the event horizon. Some experts are saying it would take a mainland-style lockdown of 2-3 months to get back to zero, but keep in mind the local experts have been on standby for two years to offer any position you need — https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong...pgtype=homepage It is very hard to predict how this shakes out. It could be HK soon moving towards a very controlled 'live with Covid' strategy a la NZ or Singapore. That's probably the highest probability outcome. I'm also hearing rumors that the mainland will intervene, given that an open HK would be a vulnerability for the mainland's own Covid containment strategy. Anything on the latter end of the spectrum would be an incredibly dramatic political turn with more potential outcomes than I care to brainstorm. What surprises me the most is how HK seems to have not built up the capacity of the healthcare system over the last two years to handle an un-contained outbreak. Even if the goal was Covid Zero, it was obvious that even a modest outbreak would stretch the labor-intensive track-and-track methods, the few thousand quarantine slots, and the however-many hospital beds were available. It's like maintaining a low, controllable level of cases was expected to work forever.
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Feb 10, 2022 12:29
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Smeef posted:What surprises me the most is how HK seems to have not built up the capacity of the healthcare system over the last two years to handle an un-contained outbreak. Even if the goal was Covid Zero, it was obvious that even a modest outbreak would stretch the labor-intensive track-and-track methods, the few thousand quarantine slots, and the however-many hospital beds were available. It's like maintaining a low, controllable level of cases was expected to work forever. Since you say you're surprised, why is this surprising to you? Did you foresee a different response?
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Feb 10, 2022 18:53
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Seems surprising given the amount of resources china has otherwise been willing to direct towards containing covid
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Feb 10, 2022 18:55
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Interesting, some English-language academic commentary on the 2021 historical resolutions: https://www.ccpwatch.org/single-post/party-watch-annual-report-2021 I especially liked Snape and Ownby's essays. Tsai does interestingly remark that the 2021 Resolution 'marks a U-turn in Xi's thinking' re: the Cultural Revolution by labelling it as a "disaster" but as the other essayists point out, the entire period is minimized relative to Xi's decade in power anyway.
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Feb 10, 2022 19:19
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killer_robot posted:Yeah. Wonderful places. Huge complexes built up, then instantly abandoned because a huge cash donation fell into Central Planning's lap from other sources so the govt sponsored development that was supposed to happen there happened on the other side of town instead. Which leaves us with once promising, nearly completed, major housing projects turned into entire square miles of unwired, unplumbed, un window glassed empty husks that nobody can, or will, live in. But they're still a good (only available) investment because nobody's going to make a /building/ disappear for months on end and dismantle it brick by brick under 'corruption' allegations (or rape! But #metoo is soooo 2018 so who cares about that anymore?) And we all /know/ housing bubbles only go 'up', especially when you need 2 or 3 empty apartments in your portfolio to even attract a wife with your unbalanced demographics. Chinese homeowner rate is like 90% and its 65% in the US per some quick googling and until the housing bubble bursts if it even does your criticism is entirely pointless and dumb. Cool segueway into using rape to own China as well. Rape is endemic to any patriarchal power structure anywhere in the world which I would imagine is probably 99%. The current president of the US is a rapist weird that American new media isn't ringing that bell wonder why?
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Feb 10, 2022 19:44
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My understanding is that Hong Kong's covid policy has been almost completely managed by the local government, without interference from the central government. Obviously the central government sends them supplies and such but how those supplies are distributed and the general management of the pandemic is all on Hong Kong's government. For a while it looked like Hong Kong was doing worse than the average Mainland city, which I suppose is why they closed the land border. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong though
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Feb 10, 2022 21:19
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Terminal autist posted:Chinese homeowner rate is like 90% and its 65% in the US per some quick googling and until the housing bubble bursts if it even does your criticism is entirely pointless and dumb. Coming back to this because while that number is true this is also true. quote:
https://www.businessinsider.com/china-empty-homes-real-estate-evergrande-housing-market-problem-2021-10 This is from 2018  Vs quote:In 2020, 9.7% of Housing Was Vacant, Down From 11.4% in 2010. The 2020 Census counted people where they were on April 1 of that year but it also counted where they were not.Aug 12, 2021 https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2021/08/united-states-housing-vacancy-rate-declined-in-past-decade.html
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Feb 10, 2022 21:59
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I can’t any other country with vacancy rates that high. Edit: quote is not edit!!! Sorry
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Feb 10, 2022 22:02
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Terminal autist posted:Chinese homeowner rate is like 90% and its 65% in the US per some quick googling and until the housing bubble bursts if it even does your criticism is entirely pointless and dumb. Cool segueway into using rape to own China as well. Rape is endemic to any patriarchal power structure anywhere in the world which I would imagine is probably 99%. The current president of the US is a rapist weird that American new media isn't ringing that bell wonder why? The US doesn't make people accusing high officials of rape disappear until they retract their entire story? Also, well off Chinese own SEVERAL apartments. It's an investment, not a place to live. The Chinese housing market is really the only place to put cash unless you have access to foreign accounts. Empty husk with no wiring? It'll go up! I'll buy 3 of them. How many of those apartments are actually OCCUPIED? A ridiculously low number. How many Dutch owned tulips back in the day? Oops, Evergrande - owning something like 50% of chinese development -collapsed and is busily selling off all of its assets. It /already/ bust. Fortunately for Evergrande the Chinese economy, and from there political stability, can't afford to have the bubble completely deflate so they're going to spend hundreds of billions propping up the corpse. killer_robot fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Feb 10, 2022 |
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Feb 10, 2022 22:08
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MarcusSA posted:Coming back to this because while that number is true this is also true. 2018 was a while ago and 65 million for a population of 1.4 billion makes the absolute numbers more difficult for me to intuitively conceptualize. Considering China announced the end of poverty recently, I’d be curious how the numbers have changed in the intervening years.
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Feb 10, 2022 22:34
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killer_robot posted:Also, well off Chinese own SEVERAL apartments. All of them? In general? This language is ambiguous and makes it hard to tell if you’re asserting an argument or just voicing an opinion.
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Feb 10, 2022 22:36
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Centrist Committee posted:2018 was a while ago and 65 million for a population of 1.4 billion makes the absolute numbers more difficult for me to intuitively conceptualize. Considering China announced the end of poverty recently, I’d be curious how the numbers have changed in the intervening years. Yes it went from 50 million vacant in 2018 to 65 million vacant in 2021 It’s one out of every 5 houses that are vacant.
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Feb 10, 2022 22:52
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MarcusSA posted:Yes it went from 50 million vacant in 2018 to 65 million vacant in 2021 Where did you see the 2021 numbers? I might have misread your post.
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Feb 10, 2022 23:04
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Centrist Committee posted:Where did you see the 2021 numbers? I might have misread your post. Those are 2017 numbers. You guys shuld read the articles you post and the articles that you are referred to in responses. CNN in late 2021 cited some chief economist dude who estimates 30 million unsold units along with 100 million (!) unoccupied units. We have talked about housing previously before during the first news of Evergrande and friends being in danger of insolvency. The central government says that it isnt and issue but since that time more developers have been shown to be struggling. https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/14/business/evergrande-china-property-ghost-towns-intl-hnk/index.html You can check my post history in this thread for more links and info if you care to read it. It includes things like developers handing out IOUs to dodge regulators that end up loving over the supply chain upstream as well as the fact that the Chinese housing market is more precarious than most given that it is THE asset class that people invest in with 70% of people's wealth tied to housing.
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Feb 10, 2022 23:43
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Centrist Committee posted:Where did you see the 2021 numbers? I might have misread your post. Its from the first link and quote. Sorry I guess that didn't translate as well. https://www.businessinsider.com/china-empty-homes-real-estate-evergrande-housing-market-problem-2021-10 One-fifth of the homes in China — at least 65 million units — are empty. That amount of empty real estate is enough to house the population of France.Oct 14, 2021 MikeC posted:Those are 2017 numbers. You guys shuld read the articles you post and the articles that you are referred to in responses. Yeah the 65 million number is from 2021.
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Feb 10, 2022 23:44
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"China Household Finance Survey, which Gan runs, shows that 21% of homes — some 65 million — were vacant as of 2017, The Wall Street Journal reported."
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Feb 10, 2022 23:48
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MikeC posted:You guys shuld read the articles you post and the articles that you are referred to in responses. This is a little hostile in my opinion. I asked MarcusSA a clarifying question and they provided a helpful answer. No need to condescend.
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Feb 10, 2022 23:52
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Stringent posted:Since you say you're surprised, why is this surprising to you? Did you foresee a different response? It's surprising because the government has otherwise been willing to sacrifice a lot to contain Covid and has been smart about doing it. For one, quarantine facilities could have been expanded (they're already hitting their limits) and improved (they were a source of the outbreak!) even if they ultimately ended up unused. Red and Black posted:My understanding is that Hong Kong's covid policy has been almost completely managed by the local government, without interference from the central government. Obviously the central government sends them supplies and such but how those supplies are distributed and the general management of the pandemic is all on Hong Kong's government. For a while it looked like Hong Kong was doing worse than the average Mainland city, which I suppose is why they closed the land border. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong though It's hard to really know how much direction is explicitly coming from Beijing. Implementation is certainly done entirely locally, and HKSAR politicians and bureaucrats are certainly very sensitive to pleasing Beijing these days. At times it feels like they are just grasping in the dark to try and meet expectations. In practice, the policies have been extremely similar to everything I've seen in mainland. And the performance here has been very good, too, especially considering HK is far more dependent on international trade and labor movement than places in the mainland are. Keep in mind that there were zero cases here for months and virtually all of 2021 was pretty normal leading up to this outbreak. Overnight the rumor in my social circles is that mainland passport holders and expats are rushing to the exits so they don't get caught in a lengthy true lockdown here.
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Feb 11, 2022 02:06
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Yes, the Shenzhen/HK border is swamped with people trying to flee. There is currently a daily limit of 600 people allowed to cross to the mainland at the Shenzhen Bay border, I heard there were 5,000 people yesterday, so they were being turned away in droves. A lot of people getting there very early to attempt to "闯关". Flights to other mainland cities are sold out over the next week or so. There are no quarantine hotels left in Shenzhen and people are being sent to hastily set up quarantine centres in disused university dormitories. I heard some people were sent to a repurposed dairy factory shop floor. It's definitely suprising that HK went all in on zero covid (now "dynamic zero") for so long but has been extremely lethargic and lackadaisical in actually containing the latest outbreak. We had to wait till it was effectively out of control before the social distancing regulations were tightened this week, and the vaccine passport hasn't even been implemented yet. Everything they do is just that little bit too slow, always 慢半拍. The authorities don't even seem to have grasped the severity of measures required to control the virus - which is their stated aim. The first of the big outbreaks to have occurred recently was at a housing estate that was locked off for a week to ten days, and similar localised lockdowns have since also been put in place, but they always end before the outbreak in the building has in fact been completely controlled and the transmission chain cut off. Ideally you'd want zero positive tests for a period of at least a week before ending the lockdown, but I believe the lockdowns here end when they are still detecting a handful of new cases each day, i.e. before they even reach zero. So the virus is never really controlled. It's all too late now anyway, the A&E departments can't handle the number of people who test positive and there are horrenduous queues at all the testing centres. Not good news for Hong Kong's elderly, who for the most part decided not to get vaccinated!
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Feb 11, 2022 06:40
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Rabelais D posted:Not good news for Hong Kong's elderly, who for the most part decided not to get vaccinated! Can you speak to vaccination beliefs in HK? How are the vaccines generally perceived? Was the PRC vaccine nationalism effort a factor?
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Feb 11, 2022 06:42
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I'm an expat so I cant talk with too much authority about local opinions. Some of the elderly were no doubt influenced by the media who made it their duty to give everyone a daily update of how many people were suffering side effects (or dying) after vaccination. The headlines would frequently read "Another dies after getting jabbed" or "Man's face paralyzed after vaccine mishap". Elderly people with pre-existing conditions (i.e. most of them) were told to seek medical advice before vaccination and early on a lot of that advice seems to have been "maybe don't get it". A lot of my younger local HK colleagues seem sceptical of the vaccines and I'm not sure why. Pro-Beijingers seem to prefer Sinovac, of course, and there is a general belief that side effects are worse with Pfizer.
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Feb 11, 2022 07:11
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