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Lemming posted:I don't disagree with that, but that's also a big part of why I don't think Alyx is particularly good Alyx is a great tech demo with a pretty good game attached to it.
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Feb 16, 2022 05:50
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raditts posted:Alyx is a great tech demo with a pretty good game attached to it. what VR games are you comparing it to? Or are you saying there simply isnt a good VR game yet? S&S & boneworks are the only things that even come close, and Alyx is still 100x more polished and accessible.
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Feb 16, 2022 06:14
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are we really arguing that a vr game would not be as enjoyable if it were non-vr in the vr thread
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Feb 16, 2022 07:01
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Nuts and Gum posted:what VR games are you comparing it to? Or are you saying there simply isnt a good VR game yet? The best VR game in my opinion is Echo Arena, and I don't think it's particularly close. VR can be so much more than "x kind of game, but VR-ified" if you think about the capabilities of the medium and how to build things in a way that take advantage of the things VR is great at. The best parts in Alyx were the times when it tried to ground you in direct interaction and contact with the environment, and it did that the most in the Jeff section. The rest of the game was very pretty but more or less just a better version of Arizona Sunshine
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Feb 16, 2022 07:11
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Lemming posted:The best VR game in my opinion is Echo Arena, and I don't think it's particularly close. VR can be so much more than "x kind of game, but VR-ified" if you think about the capabilities of the medium and how to build things in a way that take advantage of the things VR is great at. The best parts in Alyx were the times when it tried to ground you in direct interaction and contact with the environment, and it did that the most in the Jeff section. The rest of the game was very pretty but more or less just a better version of Arizona Sunshine I agree with this sentiment and would also throw Sparc, Ironlights, and Blaston up there because of how they utilize the medium in the same way. I am very excited for Resolution Games next title Ultimechs. Team vs team competitive sports + shooting game. It can't come out soon enough.
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Feb 16, 2022 07:34
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DrZepam posted:Even Carmack said that while they sold A LOT of headsets in the previous 2021 keynote, many of their users arent using them and used the word "Drawer Quest" guilty the apps section says "last played" and it's alarming to see the three most recently played games were last played 3, 5, 6 months ago I will put it on to play 10-12 songs in beatsaber (i guess a billie ellish song pack got released in the last 6 months?) and then put it away again for another 3-4 months, maybe pull it out to play a couple games of echo arena most of the other games look/feel like a tech demo, or a flash game that got ported to 3d I might use my quest 1 more if it weighed like, 1/4 as much
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Feb 16, 2022 07:39
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Tom Guycot posted:Star Trek Bridge C- Yup I was bummed about this!
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Feb 16, 2022 07:53
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The room vr is pretty awesome. I love those games.
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Feb 16, 2022 11:30
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Lemming posted:I think the implicit argument behind "if it was 2d" is that the game doesn't necessarily have much that is VR specific going on with it, or at least the things that it is doing could be relatively straightforwardly translated to flatscreen. You would definitely lose something in that translation, but if the translation *can* be done, then that's different from a VR game that could only be done in VR If the answer is "not very well" or "uhhh immersion maybe" then I think it's fair if a bit reductive to say it simply fails as a game as it isn't providing the intended experience, and a lot of even decent VR games fall into the trap of thinking people are still impressed by being able to wave guns or swords around. Like, please at least let me pick up environmental objects. I get it, it's expensive, but why are you developing for VR if you don't want to explore what the medium can do uniquely? I do also wonder how COVID has slowed/impacted VR development, I imagine it's one where being in person and being able to observe testing in a live environment is hugely beneficial lol
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Feb 16, 2022 13:34
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beep by grandpa posted:are we really arguing that a vr game would not be as enjoyable if it were non-vr in the vr thread I don't think anyone is saying that. I think people are saying that VR is still in a rough formative time. Most games aren't fully baked games. Most are short or buggy or primitive or unfinished or lacking features or otherwise feel much more like tech demos than fully complete games. Like zenith is neat, but it's neat because it's in VR. If you are just talking about it as an MMO it's kinda more like something like ragnarok online than FF14 in gameplay. It's a good VR game because VR games kinda get a pass to be a little stinky right now because VR is still hard to do well. People are basically saying "This game is good, but remember I mean good for the lower standards of VR, this game would be seen as unacceptably low quality by the normal standards for games"
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Feb 16, 2022 13:41
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I'm getting into shows from 10+ years ago that I always thought I should I should watch someday, and I saw the maybe half second in the intro to The Americans showing the old Atari Missile Defense game. I see a couple of attempts at VR versions, one from 2016 and one from the 90s with the apparent existence of a Jaguar VR attachment (looks like 3 of them are confirmed to exist). Some of those old games reimagined in 3D would be awesome. In other news, my controllers are already scuffed up and I hit my head on the ceiling yesterday. I will never stop playing Robo Recall. Ultrawings 2 is loving awesome for a game where you can play while sitting.
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Feb 16, 2022 14:08
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beep by grandpa posted:are we really arguing that a vr game would not be as enjoyable if it were non-vr in the vr thread VR has an enormous advantage when it comes to atmoshpere and immersion - and of course it has unique mechanics that cannot be replicated on pancake games...but it feels that most VR games only focus on these 2 aspects. It may simply be a budget thing, or a limited development pool, but it's immediately evident that there aren't that many games that have pancake level content quality and lenght PLUS VR mechanics unless they are ports like Outer Wilds. That Italian Guy fucked around with this message at 14:36 on Feb 16, 2022 |
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Feb 16, 2022 14:31
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Nuts and Gum posted:what VR games are you comparing it to? Or are you saying there simply isnt a good VR game yet? Not having as many direct competitors doesn't make a game better.
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Feb 16, 2022 14:33
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It's also clear that different people have different expectations when it comes to VR gaming and that colors their experience. Is The Last of Us a better game than Tetris? VR can do certain things that pancake games cannot, so I agree that games should be built around that; but at the same time I've been spoiled by pancake games like Hollow Knight that are somehow able to marry gameplay with story/atmospehere/polish. It would still be a good metroidvania even if it looked like SMB and had no story, but it's clear that these elements elevate it higher that its base gameplay loop. Personally I care for those elements and I feel like VR games are generally lacking in that department, even with the additional immersion native to VR.
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Feb 16, 2022 14:37
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I've got £8 credit to spend in the store and don't feel like actually paying for a game. Anything worth it for that? I was going to get Thrill of the Fight but I have it on steam, but untethered is appealing
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Feb 16, 2022 14:42
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Speaking of watching shows and such in VR, is there a good solution for having a small window of a media player (or browser window) as a sort of overlay in your VR space while another app is active? I've been playing some more Elite Dangerous, and it's the kind of game where having some sort of show running in the background would come in handy on those long stretches of quiet travel.
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Feb 16, 2022 14:57
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Perestroika posted:Speaking of watching shows and such in VR, is there a good solution for having a small window of a media player (or browser window) as a sort of overlay in your VR space while another app is active? I've been playing some more Elite Dangerous, and it's the kind of game where having some sort of show running in the background would come in handy on those long stretches of quiet travel. XR Overlay is exactly what you want.
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Feb 16, 2022 15:03
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That Italian Guy posted:There is imo a good discussion point if you approach it from the opposite angle: a game can be good (for it's story, dialogues, sound effects, etc) indipendently of its VR components. The best VR games are usually not as good as the best pancake game on that front, with Alyx being an outlier. Alyx isn't an outlier here, lol. HL1, HL2 and HL2 episodes are all better than Alyx, if we forget for a second the qualities that VR brings to the table.
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Feb 16, 2022 15:09
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Got a general question, I have been getting into vr fitness with the quest 2, and I'm looking for heart rate monitor tracking. Is there a way to use a heart rate monitor, or what is the best way I guess? It looks like there was an app YUR, but its no longer working. Can it be done with the native Oculus move app? I'm subscribed to Supernatural and I can pair a device to their phone app, but I was curious if there are any more elegant solutions for integrating fitness tracking into the whole Quest app ecosystem? I don't even have a heart rate monitor yet so any recommendations are welcome too. Any advice is welcome.
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Feb 16, 2022 15:12
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For supernatural you need specific HRMs. I think apple watch is supported but not my Garmin for instance. It needs to be BLE. Honestly it's easier to just keep tracking it with a watch instead of trying to do it inside VR itself.
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Feb 16, 2022 15:17
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Alyx isn't as good a game without vr, and hl2 isn't as good if you take out the physics engine, and portal is just mediocre if you take out the portal gun, and if you let your ice cream melt it isn't a very refreshing beverage
flavor.flv fucked around with this message at 15:22 on Feb 16, 2022 |
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Feb 16, 2022 15:19
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Turin Turambar posted:Alyx isn't an outlier here, lol. HL1, HL2 and HL2 episodes are all better than Alyx, if we forget for a second the qualities that VR brings to the table. The hope is to get something that's as good as good pancake games PLUS built to leverage the qualities of VR. I'm saying you don't have a game that has the width and quality of, let's say, a Deus Ex PLUS VR mechanics. A man can dream though 
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Feb 16, 2022 15:26
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flavor.flv posted:What a meaningless statement. That's like saying hl2 isn't as good if you take out the physics engine If you take out the physics engine in HL2, you've still got a fairly solid shooter with an engaging story and a wide variety of weapons. If you take the VR out of Half-Life Alyx, you've got three guns and fairly limited gameplay variety because most of it's derived from "Do A Thing, But in VR! (throw a switch, turn a dial, etc)" that just turns back into stuff that'd be obfuscated by pressing the E button on your keyboard.
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Feb 16, 2022 15:27
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You can say that about anything, though. The combat in dark souls is meaningless because in final fantasy you can do all that with a couple menu clicks The interaction is the game
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Feb 16, 2022 15:29
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Half Life 2 was never very good so it's a bad comparison and Alyx is just more fun by virtue of shooting things actually feeling good thanks to VR. Control method is key to a game's quality - play Guitar Hero with a controller next time rather than a plastic guitar.
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Feb 16, 2022 15:30
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GarudaPrime posted:Got a general question, I have been getting into vr fitness with the quest 2, and I'm looking for heart rate monitor tracking. There's no real reason to run it through the headset. If you don't have a fitness watch or something already, there's a wide variety of heart rate monitors that you can hook up to your phone, and there are a bunch of apps that will record from them during a workout. Supernatural's got a page about compatibility for their app, looks like there are some gotchas about integrations to watch out for.
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Feb 16, 2022 15:32
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:Half Life 2 was never very good quote:Control method is key to a game's quality - play Guitar Hero with a controller next time rather than a plastic guitar.
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Feb 16, 2022 15:34
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Neddy Seagoon posted:XR Overlay is exactly what you want. Great, I'll look into that. Thanks!
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Feb 16, 2022 15:35
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njsykora posted:This is good though. Control method is absolutely key to a game and its design, DDR was never designed to be played on a controller even if you can do it. Give me my Deus Ex-like game with full VR interactivity, goddamn it!
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Feb 16, 2022 15:44
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:Control method is key to a game's quality - play Guitar Hero with a controller next time rather than a plastic guitar. Half-Life Alyx doesn't really come away clean on that measure either though; There's a lot of weird stuff like having a designated Gun Hand that did not need to be in there and really runs counter to good VR game design. That Italian Guy posted:Absolutely! What I'm saying though is that nothing (except for budget/talent/etc) should theoretically stop you from producing a game that has great VR interaction and controls but also the level of polish and "non-gameplay" that great pancake games have. Hitman 3's great for walking around exotic locales and meeting new people. Shame how they all seem to have utterly terrible luck and experience tragic fatal accidents though  .
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Feb 16, 2022 15:50
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flavor.flv posted:Alyx isn't as good a game without vr, and hl2 isn't as good if you take out the physics engine, and portal is just mediocre if you take out the portal gun, and if you let your ice cream melt it isn't a very refreshing beverage If you took the portal gun out of portal it would still be a masterclass of writing, voice work, visual style, game humor. Half life 2 without physics would have sold very well I'm sure as a standard shooter of the time. Lots of games are very good on a lot of metrics. VR games tend to do the VR thing then get the rest of the game off the unity asset store. A VR game can be fun, dicking around in blade and sorcery is really fun, but it's hard to pretend it is nearly as well made as even a bottom of the barrel standard game. Outside of being fun because it's VR.
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Feb 16, 2022 16:28
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flavor.flv posted:You can say that about anything, though. The combat in dark souls is meaningless because in final fantasy you can do all that with a couple menu clicks Yeah, but *most* of the interactions in Alyx were fairly basic FPS-but-VR-ified ones. Reloading the gun is neat in VR, shooting is neat in VR, picking things up and looking at them is neat in VR. It had a few flashes of something more though, again, mostly in the Jeff area. Stuff like opening a cabinet and having a bottle roll down and needing to smoothly catch it - that's something that requires a level of precision in the hand interaction, a level of reaction and calmness, and is something physical that grounds you in the environment since it demands you react to it smoothly and quickly. There's something about it that works exceptionally well in VR in a way that just shooting something doesn't; I think the most fun parts about the gunplay are actually when you're interacting with your gun, like reloading and stuff, because that feels a lot more tactile and connected I think if you compare that to something like Echo Arena, where the interactions are incredibly deep; the way you grab off surfaces, can re-grab with other players, throwing with accuracy, shooting, passing, getting into brawls with other players, going for attacks, defenses, the way you have to organize with other players and call out to each other and stuff with the directional audio, it's all things that are fundamentally not possible in other mediums because of how the technology enables the level of control and finesse you can have and the way you can interact with the world Like, you can picture Alyx without the VR, it would suck more, but it's mappable to flatscreen. Something like Echo Arena just literally could not be done
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Feb 16, 2022 19:07
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Alyx is loving amazing* *with the exception of the Gun Hand. It makes no sense compared to everything else added, I wonder if it was a symptom of the long development time.
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Feb 16, 2022 19:09
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GarudaPrime posted:Got a general question, I have been getting into vr fitness with the quest 2, and I'm looking for heart rate monitor tracking. Just grab a smart watch or something. I have the garmin chest strap but its Ant+ and while its accurate and poo poo, its more of a pain than just slapping my apple watch on which is within 5-10% anyways. Chin Strap posted:For supernatural you need specific HRMs. I think apple watch is supported but not my Garmin for instance. It needs to be BLE. Powerbeats has ANT+ Support I think now? I'd have to check but i swear they added that. I ended up just using custom software for mine until I ended up getting a watch. Watch was close enough so f it.
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Feb 16, 2022 19:20
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I feel like y'all are talking about VR games/differences similar to when the Wii came out and everyone tried to shoehorn in motion controls.
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Feb 16, 2022 20:03
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Handling & pointing and shooting a gun in a direction has nothing to do with where you are physically looking / nothing to do with the orientation of your head and face is a really cool thing that can only be done in VR.
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Feb 16, 2022 20:27
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Zet posted:I feel like y'all are talking about VR games/differences similar to when the Wii came out and everyone tried to shoehorn in motion controls. I think it's funny the wii kinda soured everyone so bad on motion control it basically ceased to exist for a decade, then VR started to get big again and it turns out motion control is super good now. Like the jump from wiimote to quest controller is night and day and it's funny how the wii poisoned the whole idea of motion control so much barely any of the intermediate steps exist in products.
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Feb 16, 2022 20:38
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I feel like this is a weird thing to be arguing. A game doesn't have to be universally good in every theoretical medium and control scheme to be a good game. Wii Sports is one of the best games of all time and absolutely needs the motion controls to be good. Yes it would be terrible if it was played on a controller with "press X to bowl a strike" as the only interface. The game is the motion, not the action.
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Feb 16, 2022 20:42
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The Eyes Have It posted:Handling & pointing and shooting a gun in a direction has nothing to do with where you are physically looking / nothing to do with the orientation of your head and face is a really cool thing that can only be done in VR. Payday in VR is soooooo good because you can do the item objectives while looking around and shooting with your other hand. It's an amazing feeling.
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Feb 16, 2022 20:42
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Manager Hoyden posted:I feel like this is a weird thing to be arguing. A game doesn't have to be universally good in every theoretical medium and control scheme to be a good game. I don't think anyone is saying that. People are saying like.... Zenith is an MMO with about 9 hours of content, no real writing or voiced characters, very basic quests, some art work but a lot of asset store generics outside the first zone, fairly poor PS3 level graphics, many bugs and crashes, a lot of placeholder looking text, systems with parts blatantly missing, no customization, etc. It largely feels like a pre-alpha game. But people, me included, are still positive about the game, because VR is still new enough just doing anything is inherently fun. It boots up and is VR so it get an A+ for fun, but it's clearly not actually an actual good game compared to any other standard. you should buy zenith today and you will have fun, but you should know it's a bad videogame by videogame standards and in it's current state is only fun because it's VR, not because of mechanics or story or polish or anything like that. It will either have to evolve to be better or will lose appeal as VR becomes less new and it is not the only show in town for an MMO.
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Feb 16, 2022 21:17
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