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Jedit posted:The turnaround on the first six Boxtree novels was eight weeks, but for the first one John Vornholt only had three weeks because negotiations with Kevin J Anderson had fallen through. He only managed to produce anything coherent because he was a big fan of the show. 
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Feb 15, 2022 12:12
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Payndz posted:Jesus, that's insane. I'm actually a novelist, and I've written tie-in stuff before, but never on a deadline that tight. Assuming the B5 novels were a fairly typical circa-75k words, I would only have written a first draft of 45k of them in that time - and my publishers consider me fast and prolific. No, insane is Lionel Fanthorpe's output back in the late 50s and early 60s. He used a lot of pseudonyms, so his exact number of published novels is unknown, but it's estimated to be around 180. In one three year period he turned out a 50k potboiler every twelve days.
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Feb 15, 2022 12:31
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Jedit posted:No, insane is Lionel Fanthorpe's output back in the late 50s and early 60s. He used a lot of pseudonyms, so his exact number of published novels is unknown, but it's estimated to be around 180. In one three year period he turned out a 50k potboiler every twelve days. 
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Feb 17, 2022 00:10
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Jedit posted:No, insane is Lionel Fanthorpe's output back in the late 50s and early 60s. He used a lot of pseudonyms, so his exact number of published novels is unknown, but it's estimated to be around 180. In one three year period he turned out a 50k potboiler every twelve days. I know L. Ron Hubbard cranked out 100,000 words a month for the pulp rags in the ‘30s which is still nuts (and lines up with how much crap he wrote later on…)
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Feb 17, 2022 05:42
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From Pervitin to perverts: a history of SciFi
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Feb 17, 2022 06:14
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As far as I'm concerned, the only canonical B5 book is the asides written by the head chef at Fresh Air in the Babylon 5 Cookbook. Are the comics any good? I know that's like the only place where you can see Keffer actually do anything.
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Feb 18, 2022 17:52
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Clouseau posted:Are the comics any good? I know that's like the only place where you can see Keffer actually do anything. They're a pretty mixed bag. There are scans you can track down if you really want to read them, or you can just look at the summaries on the Lurker's Guide. There were 14 issues in total with issues 1-11 coming out during season 2 and issues 12-14 coming out during season 4. They break down into a few discrete storylines like so:
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Feb 18, 2022 19:12
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From the young ones thread:adhuin posted:More on the believers Is that true though, especially the bolded part? I disagree: 1) We know souls exist in B5 (triluimary, earth/minbari war, soul hunters) 2) We know souls can be trapped in physical objects (soul hunter, river of souls, triluminary) 3) We have know souls can be released from physical objects by opening them (hinted at in soul hunter, demonstrated in river of souls) I think there are reasonable (if not strong), in-universe grounds to argue that the aliens are right and Franklin is wrong.
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Feb 20, 2022 06:08
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Souls or codified personality constructs? And even if a soul is as you expect, there's still nothing to show that there's some hereafter. Also the parent's belief was that once Franklin cut the kid open his soul escaped and he was just an animal. But we see no evidence of his soul leaving. He's totally normal.
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Feb 20, 2022 07:22
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CainFortea posted:Souls or codified personality constructs? And even if a soul is as you expect, there's still nothing to show that there's some hereafter. so? we see no evidence of his soul being present after he was cut. We have evidence of souls leaving physical objects when they are broken. Their belief is reasonable in universe. Are humans with minbari souls more minbari in action and temperament? We know great souls are greater but I don't think we can say much beyond that given the evidence we have. has anyone who tested poitive on the triluminary been opened up prior to the test? Vitruvian Manic fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Feb 20, 2022 |
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Feb 20, 2022 19:51
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I always assume the triluminary lights up because it's keyed to the genetic template of Sinclair/Valen, and it's responding to the degree of relatedness a person has, whether descendant (Minbari) or distant cousin (Human). I mean, maybe it also detects souls. Something comes out of the soul hunter's orbs, after all. (It's been too long since I've seen River of Souls to remember relevant details.)
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Feb 20, 2022 20:06
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That's what I thought too but b5 does not preclude the mystical and there are plenty of reasons to think the mystical does exist in b5. That makes more sense than really really really dilute genetic markers. we knew more about mysticism in b5 than minbari genetics.
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Feb 20, 2022 20:12
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Vitruvian Manic posted:we knew more about mysticism in b5 than minbari genetics. Y'know that is a really good point.
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Feb 20, 2022 20:28
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ultrafilter posted:They're a pretty mixed bag. There are scans you can track down if you really want to read them, or you can just look at the summaries on the Lurker's Guide. There's also a 3-issue miniseries "In Valen's Name" that explains Sinclair's phrase: "I found her." It also does go into a -tiny- bit about what happened when Sinclair became Valen, and also what ultimately happens to Babylon 4. It stars pretty much the whole bridge crew from the time before Sheridan beomes President. Keffer, unfortunately, doesn't exist in this strip, he might be the background character in issue 1 who asks Ivanova some question. The art is adequate, if accurate at least and Zathras bitches through a few panels.
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Feb 20, 2022 21:25
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Per the Lurker's Guide that is issues 12-14.
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Feb 20, 2022 21:45
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In a show that shows us "souls" doing things, if it doesn't show us a "soul" doing things, then it isn't doing the thing.
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Feb 20, 2022 22:44
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CainFortea posted:In a show that shows us "souls" doing things, if it doesn't show us a "soul" doing things, then it isn't doing the thing. With the notable exception of Sheridan, I don't think we see any souls leaving bodies when they die on the show, including people we know strong reason to believe have souls.
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Feb 20, 2022 22:58
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Vitruvian Manic posted:With the notable exception of Sheridan, I don't think we see any souls leaving bodies when they die on the show, including people we know strong reason to believe have souls. You don't get to eat your cake and have it too.
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Feb 20, 2022 23:23
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CainFortea posted:You don't get to eat your cake and have it too. I'm not. do you think neroon doesn't have a soul? what about Marcus? Vitruvian Manic fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Feb 20, 2022 |
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Feb 20, 2022 23:27
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Vitruvian Manic posted:I'm not. do you think neroon doesn't have a soul? what about Marcus? Clearly not in the case of the latter: he sold it for the hair and the accent.
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Feb 21, 2022 00:11
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this got me thinking. since clairvoyance is reasonably common in centauri after first contact people probably reexamined prophecy in human history. humans adopting the centauri religion were probably neopagans who recontextualized ancient Greek (and possibly other) religions within the centauri religion. so less wholesale adoption of thegrwat maker and more venus=aphrodite=ishtar=isis=li type stuff. still pretty cringe though
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Feb 21, 2022 00:13
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Habibi posted:Clearly not in the case of the latter: he sold it for the hair and the accent. I had to include Marcus as a joke. incel dweebs definitely don't have souls. I can't speak for anyone else though.
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Feb 21, 2022 00:14
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Vitruvian Manic posted:I'm not. do you think neroon doesn't have a soul? what about Marcus? I know you don't. But you're trying. The viewer only seeing souls only counts when it supports your position. When we don't it doesn't count.
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Feb 21, 2022 00:30
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There is no conclusive evidence presented in B5 concerning the existence of the soul: River of Souls clearly establishes the Soul Hunters "saved" a species that was uplifting at the time they did it. The process turned the whole species into energy beings. Soul Hunters trap energy in their containers. The fact that they trapped energy beings doesn't prove that when they "save" a dying person who is NOT an energy being, that they capture their souls instead of forming an electromagnetic duplicate of the person that believes itself to be them. It is unclear how well the Soul Hunters understand the technology they're using. The Minbari, and multiple other races, believe in a soul. That is not proof. The Minbari believe the Triluminary detects souls. But we see on-screen evidence that it's a genetic encoding device, and picks up Sinclair's DNA, and we learn Delenn has traces of that DNA, so the soul is not required for any of that. Vorlon deaths involve "non-localized phenomena", but that could be a soul or it could be unique to energy beings. That we hear the soul described in those terms once is not conclusive proof, no more than saying the existence of water proves the existence of liquid intelligence. Lorien appears to be an energy being. Kosh is an energy being. Sheridan, when reconstituted, has bits of two energy beings keeping his body together. When he simply stops at the end of his life, he might be taken up body & soul by Lorien. Or what's left of his body might be entirely the energy stuff, and Lorien might reabsorb it, meaning there was nothing left of his body. As whatever happens leaves no traces behind for in-universe analysis, Sheridan's death is subject to interpretation. The Day of the Dead implies the possibility of life after death. But the visits could have all been hallucinations; in any event, no mechanism is ever on offer to explain what happened. Believers offers no mechanism through which the presence of the soul can be determined. If souls do not exist, obviously performing surgery cannot release a non-existent soul, and the child was unharmed and then murdered. If souls do exist, there is no reason that the souls of Children of the Egg might not be released through surgery; it is also possible that their belief happens to be false. But if there is no way to prove the child had a soul going into the surgery, it is equally impossible to prove he has a soul after the surgery. So their belief can neither be confirmed nor denied, even if B5 elsewhere gives us proof that souls exist.
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Feb 21, 2022 01:19
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Vitruvian Manic posted:this got me thinking. since clairvoyance is reasonably common in centauri after first contact people probably reexamined prophecy in human history. humans adopting the centauri religion were probably neopagans who recontextualized ancient Greek (and possibly other) religions within the centauri religion. so less wholesale adoption of thegrwat maker and more venus=aphrodite=ishtar=isis=li type stuff. still pretty cringe though Alternately: We know that vorlon influence on human history has been coded as aligned with the dominant trio of monotheistic faiths (since they all have an "Angel" concept akin to what Kosh was seen as, we can ignore distinguishing between them). We also know that those from similar worlds with similar Vorlon interference also saw whatever their Vorlon religious programming was when they looked at a Vorlon. We know that Londo saw nothing. Is the similarity between the Centauri pantheon and ancient Human pagan faiths the result of Shadow influence on theology on both worlds?
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Feb 21, 2022 01:20
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Binary Badger posted:There's also a 3-issue miniseries "In Valen's Name" that explains Sinclair's phrase: "I found her." I just realized that Catherine Sakai and Carolyn Sykes both have the initials CS. I’m assuming that was intention like Sinclair and Sheridan having the initials JS.
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Feb 21, 2022 01:28
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There's also the early season 5 episode where Lyta scans a dying ranger. Bester does the same in the telepath trilogy and actually crosses the threshold with the deceased.
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Feb 21, 2022 02:00
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CainFortea posted:I know you don't. But you're trying. The viewer only seeing souls only counts when it supports your position. When we don't it doesn't count. no I'm just saying we don't know. maybe only some people have soils, that could be supported. its like trill where there are only so many. we have good reason to believe that 1) souls can be assayed for and 2) are visible under certain circumstances. if everybody could always see souls there would be no need for a triluminary. plus if we could always see souls the world of b5 would be immediately very different from our own
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Feb 21, 2022 02:00
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Narsham posted:giant wall of text you can create a justification for souls not being real in the world of b5 but it feels pretty forced, see: your post. if souls aren't real then of course the family is factually wrong and Franklin is right.
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Feb 21, 2022 02:03
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Chevy Slyme posted:Alternately: We know that vorlon influence on human history has been coded as aligned with the dominant trio of monotheistic faiths (since they all have an "Angel" concept akin to what Kosh was seen as, we can ignore distinguishing between them). I like this, this is a cool idea. makes the shadows more of an indirect actor as opposed to the direct actors we see. the vorlons being sneaky makes sense but despite their name the shadows aren't very shadowy
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Feb 21, 2022 02:04
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prior to them losing the war and having to go into hiding do we ever see the shadows do something dishonest or tricky? despite the framing I think they are honest actors who, at worst, engage in iterated prisoners dilemma tit-for-tat.
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Feb 21, 2022 02:11
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Vitruvian Manic posted:no I'm just saying we don't know. Vitruvian Manic posted:you can create a justification for souls not being real in the world of b5 but it feels pretty forced
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Feb 21, 2022 02:27
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it's like our world but reversed. in our world I think we have strong reasons to believe souls don't exist and justifications for souls existing is pretty thin and circumstantial. so I don't think souls exist but I could be wrong. in b5 i think there is really strong evidence that we see as an omniscient perspective for the existence of souls. I could be wrong but I think the evidence against it is a muuuch heavier and more convoluted interpretation of the events we see.
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Feb 21, 2022 02:39
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I think the existence of souls is implied in Babylon 5, but also potentially dismissed as various other phenomenae. I don't think the show intends to be definitive on the existence or not of god, the soul, or the spiritual world, that's up to your own personal sense of religiosity. The Minbari used Sinclair (and complaints about Minbari kids these days) to conclude that Minbari and human souls were getting reincarnated with the wrong races, but it turned out that Sinclair didn't just happen to have Valen's soul, he WAS Valen, or was going to become him. When the soul hunter appears, Franklin offers a theory on what else the "souls" could be. Franklin does surgery on a child, and nothing seems notably different. But on the other side of things, he show for the most part expressly doesn't contradict the ideas of the religions depicted in the show. Christian monks and jewish rabbis have genuine useful insight. The guy searching the stars for the holy grail is respected in his weird quest. The Vorlons may co-opt some aspects of religion to their own ends, but crucially they didn't pose as the prophets themselves. The show respects religion but also doesn't hinge on it being physically observably real and accurate.
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Feb 21, 2022 02:45
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Mr. Apollo posted:Was it Catherine? Yes, it was. At the end of To Dream In The City of Sorrows Catherine disappears into a time rift created by the Great Machine. It's unknown exactly what happened to her after that, but it's believed that Sinclair used the Triluminary to convert her into a Minbari and that she is the wife of Valen mentioned in 4X09 Atonement.
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Feb 21, 2022 03:00
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Chevy Slyme posted:We know that Londo saw nothing. But we don't know what another Centauri would've seen.
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Feb 21, 2022 03:18
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Chevy Slyme posted:We know that Londo saw nothing. We know that's what he said, at any rate.
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Feb 21, 2022 03:32
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Clouseau posted:Are the comics any good? I know that's like the only place where you can see Keffer actually do anything. The art's about what you'd expect form a 90s licensed comic, mostly on-model, one issue however:  It's like they didn't know when to stop drawing it
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Feb 21, 2022 03:35
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SlothfulCobra posted:I think the existence of souls is implied in Babylon 5, but also potentially dismissed as various other phenomenae. I don't think the show intends to be definitive on the existence or not of god, the soul, or the spiritual world, that's up to your own personal sense of religiosity. The Minbari used Sinclair (and complaints about Minbari kids these days) to conclude that Minbari and human souls were getting reincarnated with the wrong races, but it turned out that Sinclair didn't just happen to have Valen's soul, he WAS Valen, or was going to become him. When the soul hunter appears, Franklin offers a theory on what else the "souls" could be. Franklin does surgery on a child, and nothing seems notably different. I agree. I just think from the omniscient perspective we have souls are *at least* much more likely to exist in b5 than in our real world. We have evidence that they exist and evidence that they can leave physical bodies (either the person or a soul hunter orb). we don't know how or when they leave physical bodies other that ensoulled individuals lose their soul when they die. if souls are real and if they can leave the body, we don't know if they can leave the body before death just that ensoulled individuals do lose their soul on death. So could we lose our soul prior to death? opening the soul hunter orb releases a soul but I don't think delenn thought she was murdering people when she released their soul from the soul hunter orb (the soul hunter strongly disagreed!). for all we know the believers got the idea from observing a soul hunter after they liberated its lair. I think there is room for reasonable doubt that they could be correct.
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Feb 21, 2022 03:39
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plus the "other phenomena" line feels a bit like a zombi/vampire movie where no one calls them "zombies" or "vampires". if it is close enough we may as well use the word we have for it even if it isn't a 100% match.
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Feb 21, 2022 03:59
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