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Cephas
May 11, 2009

Humanity's real enemy is me!
Hya hya foowah!
Anyone have recommendations for books about Korean Buddhism or books that are major works of Korean Buddhism? I know very little about Korea's flavor of Buddhism but have heard some cool things ("what is this?" as a focus of meditation, intellectual approaches to integrating gradual awakening with sudden awakening)

Personally, I'm much more afraid of samsara than oblivion lol. I'd take endless oblivion over samsara if I could. But I believe there is a Buddhist description of oblivion-beings who exist basically without physical form or mental action and think they have reached eternal oblivion, but are merely living out long stretches of time in an impermanent form. So oblivion's not really the end that it's cracked up to be.

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Brawnfire
Jul 13, 2004

🎧Listen to Cylindricule!🎵
https://linktr.ee/Cylindricule

Cephas posted:

("what is this?" as a focus of meditation)

OwO

Beowulfs_Ghost
Nov 6, 2009

Cephas posted:

Personally, I'm much more afraid of samsara than oblivion lol. I'd take endless oblivion over samsara if I could. But I believe there is a Buddhist description of oblivion-beings who exist basically without physical form or mental action and think they have reached eternal oblivion, but are merely living out long stretches of time in an impermanent form. So oblivion's not really the end that it's cracked up to be.

An aspect of the concentration type meditations is jhana. It is the root word for Japanese Zen, Korean Son, and Chinese Chan, schools of Buddhism. Different schools may have varying definitions of which level of jhana one might get into, but they all agree that there are "formless" jhanas. Basically, one develops single pointed focus to such a degree that they can lose awareness of the physical realms. One would no longer be focusing on the breath and body, but on raw space, or consciousness.

Before the Buddha became the Buddha, he studied with a person who could meditate all the way to "nothingness", and was claiming that it was the key to eliminating suffering. Siddhartha learned the technique, but wasn't sold on it. Siddhartha found another teacher that could do one better, and could meditated so hard that he could attain "neither perception nor non-perception". But again, Siddhartha was not sold on this being the total cessation of suffering.

This has a quick rundown of the various levels from one of the Buddha's disciples;
http://www.suttas.com/chapter-7-sariputta-samyutta-with-sariputta.html

Since then, there have been cautionary tales of getting too engrossed in these styles of meditation, because doing so may lead to rebirth in such a realm. Needless to say, getting oneself out of such a realm to be reborn back to some place where one my pick the dharma backup is difficult to the point of impossibility. How does one grow old in die in a realm of "nothing"? How does one hear the dharma in a realm of "neither perception nor non-perception"?

And aside from that post-death pitfall, they have little practical value in ones practice in this life. Hanging out in nothingness is kind of nice if you want to get away from back pain. But there is so little mentally going on in these trance like states that it is hard to get anything useful done. The point of liberation is to be liberated all the time, not just in some rarefied meditative state.

ram dass in hell
Dec 29, 2019



:420::toot::420:

Cephas posted:

Anyone have recommendations for books about Korean Buddhism or books that are major works of Korean Buddhism? I know very little about Korea's flavor of Buddhism but have heard some cool things ("what is this?" as a focus of meditation, intellectual approaches to integrating gradual awakening with sudden awakening)

Personally, I'm much more afraid of samsara than oblivion lol. I'd take endless oblivion over samsara if I could. But I believe there is a Buddhist description of oblivion-beings who exist basically without physical form or mental action and think they have reached eternal oblivion, but are merely living out long stretches of time in an impermanent form. So oblivion's not really the end that it's cracked up to be.

big fan of "Dropping Ashes on the Buddha" for some Korean styled Zen teaching. Always a caveat when recommending Seung Sahn, he apparently had consenting relationships with several of his students and some people don't like that. I still got a lot out of the book, though. Actually, I got less than nothing out of it.

Bilirubin
Feb 16, 2014

The sanctioned action is to CHUG


I koan take these puns

I had mentioned there being a Plum Village sangha in my town, but it apparently is a lay community which, according to some people on the reddits with VERY. STRONG. OPINIONS. doesn't qualify as a sangha because there are no monks. The kinder way of putting that is its a fine community for more advanced practitioners but for newer ones having more immediate expertise for instruction is preferable. Or you might get situations like buddy posted about where its just a large unhelpful group therapy session. A concern or overblown by people with very strong opinions?

We have our pick of places though. Have a monk in residence at a local Tibetan temple (a small community but dedicated, just build a new place) and they seem chill and happy like all the monks do, seems a legit lineage: https://jtclcalgary.ca/about/teacher/ ), we have a large Chan Pure Land monetary/ temple that was build in my old neighbourhood while I lived there (so I feel somewhat drawn to it) also seemingly like a traditional solid background (founded by Venerable Master Hsuan Hua, web site states "We follow the "Five Schools" of the Mahayana style that include: Precepts (moral rules, called the Vinaya School), Meditation (called the Chan School), Studying Dharma-teachings (called the Scholastic School), Mantras (called the Esoteric, or " Secret School"), Chanting the Buddha's name (called the Pure Land School)), a Vietnamese Thien place but I'm uncertain how much is in English, and just about every Japanese Zen school. I'm actually shocked at how much is available for one in a town of a little over a million.

Of course Covid but I am thinking these will be places I will keep an eye on for classes and events going forward, should we ever Open Kenney without the risk of early reincarnation.

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!



Bilirubin posted:

We have our pick of places though. Have a monk in residence at a local Tibetan temple (a small community but dedicated, just build a new place) and they seem chill and happy like all the monks do, seems a legit lineage: https://jtclcalgary.ca/about/teacher/ ), we have a large Chan Pure Land monetary/ temple that was build in my old neighbourhood while I lived there (so I feel somewhat drawn to it) also seemingly like a traditional solid background (founded by Venerable Master Hsuan Hua, web site states "We follow the "Five Schools" of the Mahayana style that include: Precepts (moral rules, called the Vinaya School), Meditation (called the Chan School), Studying Dharma-teachings (called the Scholastic School), Mantras (called the Esoteric, or " Secret School"), Chanting the Buddha's name (called the Pure Land School)), a Vietnamese Thien place but I'm uncertain how much is in English, and just about every Japanese Zen school. I'm actually shocked at how much is available for one in a town of a little over a million.

Of course Covid but I am thinking these will be places I will keep an eye on for classes and events going forward, should we ever Open Kenney without the risk of early reincarnation.
I was a little surprised at the number of Buddhist locations near me, though I do live near a college and I haven't had a chance to go practice with them. I should check that out now that I have a better schedule. I cannot speculate on your own risk tolerance, nor those of the monks, but it will likely be feasible to visit the grounds and have a conversation with masks on etc. The monks are likely not engaging in high risk behaviors... we hope

Brawnfire
Jul 13, 2004

🎧Listen to Cylindricule!🎵
https://linktr.ee/Cylindricule

I have the Rochester Zen Center near me, apparently Rivers Cuomo was raised there? Anyhow their gardens are beautiful

Bilirubin
Feb 16, 2014

The sanctioned action is to CHUG


Nessus posted:

I was a little surprised at the number of Buddhist locations near me, though I do live near a college and I haven't had a chance to go practice with them. I should check that out now that I have a better schedule. I cannot speculate on your own risk tolerance, nor those of the monks, but it will likely be feasible to visit the grounds and have a conversation with masks on etc. The monks are likely not engaging in high risk behaviors... we hope

It seems quite mixed. My own risk tolerance is: lol, my partner has a chronic metabolic illness so nope, other than what I am mandated to do (teaching in person, but our mask mandate is still live and my lab is designed for formaldehyde work so huge air turnover so *touches wood*). The Tibetan place is slowly starting in person meeting but is keeping zoom as well, but the Chan monastery is SHUT THE gently caress DOWN, as is a local Buddhist restaurant that serves that community. At least the web site hasn't been updated since this all started--not sure if further notices are posted on their temple entrance. The Vietnamese place doesn't have a web site and also serves as a cultural centre; from web reviews there are English offerings but you would have to contact the monks for specifics.

Isn't it true though, there are huge numbers of communities, many inaccessible if you don't speak the local language they serve, but wow. The Japanese places seem to range from very traditional Japanese to serving a primarily Western clientele, for example. Very cool. Its amazing what you can discover about your community by just looking, but remains unseen unless you don't. I've had this discovery repeat endlessly during the pandemic while walking the dog through different neighbourhoods.

E. I am correct that these would be options with teachings all relatively consistent with each other?

Bilirubin fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Apr 5, 2022

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!



Bilirubin posted:

It seems quite mixed. My own risk tolerance is: lol, my partner has a chronic metabolic illness so nope, other than what I am mandated to do (teaching in person, but our mask mandate is still live and my lab is designed for formaldehyde work so huge air turnover so *touches wood*). The Tibetan place is slowly starting in person meeting but is keeping zoom as well, but the Chan monastery is SHUT THE gently caress DOWN, as is a local Buddhist restaurant that serves that community. At least the web site hasn't been updated since this all started--not sure if further notices are posted on their temple entrance. The Vietnamese place doesn't have a web site and also serves as a cultural centre; from web reviews there are English offerings but you would have to contact the monks for specifics.

Isn't it true though, there are huge numbers of communities, many inaccessible if you don't speak the local language they serve, but wow. The Japanese places seem to range from very traditional Japanese to serving a primarily Western clientele, for example. Very cool. Its amazing what you can discover about your community by just looking, but remains unseen unless you don't. I've had this discovery repeat endlessly during the pandemic while walking the dog through different neighbourhoods.

E. I am correct that these would be options with teachings all relatively consistent with each other?
Yeah, a lot of these places are very culturally bound. I had a meaningful experience on the grounds of a very Sri Lankan temple but I didn't feel like I should try to join the community and as it turned out I had to move away from that area a few months later as it was. I should make a donation if I'm ever down that way again, though.

Also -- I can't speak for these individual places but broadly speaking, Vietnamese and Japanese are PROBABLY practicing some form of Mahayana and Chan/Thien/Zen are, not the same thing, but are kind of cognate to each other. Tibetan (and I think also Bhutanese/Nepali, if that comes up) will be Vajrayana which can be more esoteric and may have more talk of 'deity forms' and such -- Paramemetic can tell you more.

I don't think their teachings are likely to be wildly inconsistent with one another. You could make a very loose analogy how if you go to a Methodist church, a Baptist church and an Episcopalian church - they all have basically the same Bible, and they're not understanding the key elements in a very different way. The emphasis and the pattern of life may be very different, however.

If you formally wish to take refuge (which I would encourage - oughta do it myself - but should not be considered obligatory) then you might consider which temple and which teacher has touched your life the most, because this is a certain sort of connection; but it will not be like a lock-out, or like if you take refuge with a Vietnamese group you could not later sit with a Tibetan or Sri Lankan sangha.

Brawnfire
Jul 13, 2004

🎧Listen to Cylindricule!🎵
https://linktr.ee/Cylindricule

Thirty minutes tonight. I had a very difficult day. I was downright excited to meditate today.

I saw a dark triangle with my eyes closed, darker than the surrounding eigengrau, and it felt nice to stare at its middle.

Caufman
May 7, 2007

Bilirubin posted:

I had mentioned there being a Plum Village sangha in my town, but it apparently is a lay community which, according to some people on the reddits with VERY. STRONG. OPINIONS. doesn't qualify as a sangha because there are no monks. The kinder way of putting that is its a fine community for more advanced practitioners but for newer ones having more immediate expertise for instruction is preferable. Or you might get situations like buddy posted about where its just a large unhelpful group therapy session. A concern or overblown by people with very strong opinions?

I don't think you'll find a Plum Village monastic who will invalidate a lay community as not a real sangha simply because it has no monastics, as that would contradict what Thay Nhat Hanh told countless retreat-goers about going home to build their sanghas in their homes and communities. It is beautiful to have the chance to be around monastics, to learn from them and practice with them. But there are many more communities in the world than there are retreat centers built and populated with monastics. Should all those people who live far from a retreat center just go through their daily lives without the refuge of a sangha? I doubt you'll find a monastic trained by Thay Nhat Hanh who would agree with that.

BIG FLUFFY DOG
Feb 16, 2011

On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog.


Monastics are already starting to have real trouble spots as Asia modernizes and becomes wealthier since the world before where you gave up sex booze and meat in exchange for not having to work hard and getting a guaranteed meal combined with secularization means a lot of young people aren’t interested. I think at least some Asian sanghas are going to start reforming how monasticism works within our lifetimes frankly. Whether that’s to a Thai model of temporary ordination, a Japanese model of drinking and marriage is okay or a western model of laity do most of our religious functions with monasticism being for people who are really into it or something else I can’t say

Brawnfire
Jul 13, 2004

🎧Listen to Cylindricule!🎵
https://linktr.ee/Cylindricule

My fourth unbroken night of meditation. I did forty minutes in two twenty-minute intervals with a stretch because my legs always fall asleep. This may be the perfect length for me? Felt very good.

First twenty minutes was like piloting a space fighter through a bullet hell of cravings, attachments, and worries with just an arrow on the edge of my radar saying "ENLIGHTENMENT?" Second twenty felt settled, like I was an old man sitting on a little hillock rocking back and forth, alone.

Beowulfs_Ghost
Nov 6, 2009

BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:

Monastics are already starting to have real trouble spots as Asia modernizes and becomes wealthier since the world before where you gave up sex booze and meat in exchange for not having to work hard and getting a guaranteed meal combined with secularization means a lot of young people aren’t interested. I think at least some Asian sanghas are going to start reforming how monasticism works within our lifetimes frankly. Whether that’s to a Thai model of temporary ordination, a Japanese model of drinking and marriage is okay or a western model of laity do most of our religious functions with monasticism being for people who are really into it or something else I can’t say

The modes of monasticism in all those countries are already an adaptation. India in the time of the Buddha already had a well established cultural norm of feeding wandering holy men that few other cultures shared. Marriage in Zen was a later thing, but even before that, Dogen did a lot of thinking in how to do a monastery in Japan, where the expectation was that monks would have to store and cook their own food. And even he was borrowing from Chinese monasteries, which had already gone though adapting to Chinese norms.

It will be interesting to see how things go. Hopefully they can realize they have had to adapt before, and not throw in the towel as if this were an existential threat.



Brawnfire posted:

My fourth unbroken night of meditation. I did forty minutes in two twenty-minute intervals with a stretch because my legs always fall asleep. This may be the perfect length for me? Felt very good.

First twenty minutes was like piloting a space fighter through a bullet hell of cravings, attachments, and worries with just an arrow on the edge of my radar saying "ENLIGHTENMENT?" Second twenty felt settled, like I was an old man sitting on a little hillock rocking back and forth, alone.

For me the sensation is like being tossed around on choppy seas in a small boat while being enveloped in fog. And that transitions to a glassy sea of stillness and clear visibility to the horizon.

Keep up the practice. Like any other exercise, doing a little everyday will add up pretty quickly.

Bilirubin
Feb 16, 2014

The sanctioned action is to CHUG


How does one maintain practice if sick?

ram dass in hell
Dec 29, 2019



:420::toot::420:

Bilirubin posted:

How does one maintain practice if sick?

The Vimalakirti sutra is one of my favorites and has a lot of wonderful things to say on the topic. In wholly inadequate summary; the same way one practices when not sick. The sickness is an experience of phenomena, and can be used to observe the 3 marks of existence. One can also pose the question, "do whom does this sickness belong?" "Whose nausea is this?" etc etc etc. Get well soon!

Bilirubin
Feb 16, 2014

The sanctioned action is to CHUG


ram dass in hell posted:

The Vimalakirti sutra is one of my favorites and has a lot of wonderful things to say on the topic. In wholly inadequate summary; the same way one practices when not sick. The sickness is an experience of phenomena, and can be used to observe the 3 marks of existence. One can also pose the question, "do whom does this sickness belong?" "Whose nausea is this?" etc etc etc. Get well soon!

Thank you! I managed to get the rona finally, and did not feel capable of sitting yesterday, but today is a little better and I will give that a go.

I WOULD LIKE WHOMEVER THIS ILLNESS BELONGS TO TO PLEASE COME AND RETRIEVE IT ASAP

Caufman
May 7, 2007
May you recover quickly and fully. I appreciate the posts you and Brawnfire and others make about your day-to-day practice. It reminds me of the instruction to retain the beginner's mind even after practicing for a longer time.

I recall there's a few dharma talks online of Br. Phap Dung where he talks about mindfulness of being sick, as it seems to be one of his favorite topics to go back to. I can try to dig those up if you'd like.

I also recently re-watched this dharma talk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq84xME88cU) given by Br. Freedom, the abbot of Deer Park while on a road retreat, discussing the topic of sangha. I like how he describes a bit of what it's like behind-the-scenes in the monastic community about making decisions and supporting one another's practices, especially when there is lack of consensus or even conflict between sangha-members. It also reminded me that there are really three types of members who can be said to belong to the Plum Village tradition. There's the monastics, there's the lay practitioners, but there's also lay dharma teachers who, while not ordained monastics, are members of the Order of Interbeing and receive more training and have more responsibilities than the general lay practicing public. I imagine a lay community in the Plum Village tradition that is fortunate enough to have a lay dharma teacher involved in it may have more instruction and structure than one who does not have an OI member involved. But again, that's not to disparage those communities without an OI teacher. People must do what they can with what's available for the sake of growing siblinghood.

Cephas posted:

Personally, I'm much more afraid of samsara than oblivion lol. I'd take endless oblivion over samsara if I could. But I believe there is a Buddhist description of oblivion-beings who exist basically without physical form or mental action and think they have reached eternal oblivion, but are merely living out long stretches of time in an impermanent form. So oblivion's not really the end that it's cracked up to be.

I go back and forth, but generally I find the idea of oblivion more unnerving. There was a time when being trapped in samsara didn't seem that bad in comparison, and then there were days where it seemed like it would be horrible beyond anything else. But generally, I'm more discomforted by the idea that some day, this ol' thought factory in my head is just going to such its doors forever.

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!



Bilirubin posted:

Thank you! I managed to get the rona finally, and did not feel capable of sitting yesterday, but today is a little better and I will give that a go.

I WOULD LIKE WHOMEVER THIS ILLNESS BELONGS TO TO PLEASE COME AND RETRIEVE IT ASAP
Who is the person to whom the coronavirus belongs?

I do think one thing to keep in mind is, don't beat yourself up if your practice does not seem to make progress when you are sick. Just do what you can, when you can.

Also gonna get to Thay's stuff about the eightfold path FINALLY in the near future, hype for this book

Bilirubin
Feb 16, 2014

The sanctioned action is to CHUG


Caufman posted:

May you recover quickly and fully. I appreciate the posts you and Brawnfire and others make about your day-to-day practice. It reminds me of the instruction to retain the beginner's mind even after practicing for a longer time.

Thank you for your wishes of wellness I am also glad that I am not just spamming the thread up on my excitement, and am trying to be mindful of sheer enthusiasm vs. seeking approval. But its a discussion board, so number one rule is :justpost:

quote:

I recall there's a few dharma talks online of Br. Phap Dung where he talks about mindfulness of being sick, as it seems to be one of his favorite topics to go back to. I can try to dig those up if you'd like.

I think I have some of those on the Plum Village app; I will watch them tonight. I recall seeing a question and answer that Thuy recorded, in the context of someone close to you with a severe illness

quote:

I also recently re-watched this dharma talk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq84xME88cU) given by Br. Freedom, the abbot of Deer Park while on a road retreat, discussing the topic of sangha. I like how he describes a bit of what it's like behind-the-scenes in the monastic community about making decisions and supporting one another's practices, especially when there is lack of consensus or even conflict between sangha-members. It also reminded me that there are really three types of members who can be said to belong to the Plum Village tradition. There's the monastics, there's the lay practitioners, but there's also lay dharma teachers who, while not ordained monastics, are members of the Order of Interbeing and receive more training and have more responsibilities than the general lay practicing public. I imagine a lay community in the Plum Village tradition that is fortunate enough to have a lay dharma teacher involved in it may have more instruction and structure than one who does not have an OI member involved. But again, that's not to disparage those communities without an OI teacher. People must do what they can with what's available for the sake of growing siblinghood.

Thank you for this. I meant in no way any disrespect in what I said and hoped that I had emphasized these were the words of advice to beginners by another (identifying as a Tibetan practitioner) and was seeking information as to its soundness. Our local community does not have its own lay dharma teacher but one rotates through on the (pre covid) regular so I will definitely keep my eyes open for their schedule.

I have not committed to anywhere or any lineage but my practice, such as it is right now, and learning as much as I can manage. I am drawn to Plum Village because TNH was an amazing writer and puts things so elegantly and clearly as to be obvious, and the app is constructed with such love and care. But I am also mindful that he is one of many excellent teachers, both in Plum Village and other traditions, who have valuable insight to teach.

I'm very drawn to Zen schools for their simplicity clarity and elegance. But I am also learning there is an almost esoteric side to it. And then you get wild mad cap hilarious romps through SFF like the sutra that Ram Das posted above: "Vimalakīrti performs a further miracle, summoning from another distant Buddha-field 32,000 vast "lion thrones" (siṃhāsana) for Mañjuśrī and his company, without expanding his narrow room. Each of these seats is so immense that advanced bodhisattvas must transform their bodies to a size of 42,000 yojanas (leagues) tall to sit on them. Śariputra and other mahāśrāvakas, incapable of this feat, cannot mount their seats. This space- and mind-bending miracle is taken as the chance to teach that a vast array of "unthinkable" things are possible for advanced adherents of the Mahāyāna (e.g. inhaling all the winds of all the worlds at once, or showing all the offerings ever given to all Buddhas in a single pore of the skin of their bodies)."

(and that's not even bringing up the petal sprinkling Goddess in the following chapter)

quote:

I go back and forth, but generally I find the idea of oblivion more unnerving. There was a time when being trapped in samsara didn't seem that bad in comparison, and then there were days where it seemed like it would be horrible beyond anything else. But generally, I'm more discomforted by the idea that some day, this ol' thought factory in my head is just going to such its doors forever.
Coming from an Evangelical Christian upbringing, their stories created nightmares and real psychological horror for me until I was able to fully step away from it. So I have fully embraced the idea of oblivion and made peace with it long ago. I like the idea of the flame lighting other flames though, and through my work with students and now also the dharma to have lasting, positive, impacts into the future on others. This is an idea I got from one of Thuy's dharma talks in fact. Should I reincarnate with any sort of memory structure cool, but if I am currently a reincarnation lol I have zero continuity with my last life on a conscious level and so I fail to see a distinction. Thus, I'm not going to sweat it. However Amita's Buddha land sounds chill

Bilirubin
Feb 16, 2014

The sanctioned action is to CHUG


Nessus posted:

Who is the person to whom the coronavirus belongs?

*every pangolin in Southeast Asia mysteriously starts running for shelter*

quote:

Also gonna get to Thay's stuff about the eightfold path FINALLY in the near future, hype for this book
Its super good and I look forward to hearing your thoughts!

Brawnfire
Jul 13, 2004

🎧Listen to Cylindricule!🎵
https://linktr.ee/Cylindricule

Bilirubin posted:

Thank you for your wishes of wellness I am also glad that I am not just spamming the thread up on my excitement, and am trying to be mindful of sheer enthusiasm vs. seeking approval. But its a discussion board, so number one rule is :justpost:

This is a thought loop I have to push aside a lot during meditation: I am looking forward to sharing my progress meditating. It smacks of approval-seeking, but I am also genuinely enthusiastic about my journey with meditation. And I want to stimulate discussion because discussion stimulated my desire to meditate and made me finally seriously set aside time each day.

prom candy
Dec 16, 2005

Only I may dance
I have been doing the thought cataloguing or noting practice where I observe my thoughts, note them ("planning, worry, reminiscing, work" etc.) and one of the ones that comes up a lot is "posting" :v:

Also, total aside but just an interesting thing I've observed about my mind. I first started practicing regularly last May or so and I was playing a lot of Apex Legends at the time. I don't play at all anymore and I haven't in probably 6-8 months but during most meditations I get an image of it somewhere near the beginning of the practice. It's neat how strong our neural habits are, and I can see pretty obvious parallels between a relatively benign pattern like that and some of my more harmful ones.

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003
SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>

Bilirubin posted:

I koan take these puns

I had mentioned there being a Plum Village sangha in my town, but it apparently is a lay community which, according to some people on the reddits with VERY. STRONG. OPINIONS. doesn't qualify as a sangha because there are no monks

This is comically absurd and I highly recommend ignoring internet buddhism weirdos and avoiding places that are full of the worst of them as much as possible.

The kernel of truth there is that it is indeed advantageous to find communities with knowledgeable or experienced people both because they generally can provide better guidance and can steer you clear of some of the common pitfalls. But lol that as-stated is so ahistoric and counterfactual. As an aside I've been part of quite casual, sanghas (but also entirely above board by even the strictest definition) where you didn't actually know if the people there were monastics unless they actually felt like sharing it so in many cases I don't know how someone would even know. There are also lay and householder lineages of practice, so add an additional lol onto the heap.

Slightly related but I would be very wary of anyone professing to be a buddhist teacher without some connection to an established tradition/lineage. That's a huge red flag. I don't mean someone claiming to be knowledgeable so much as someone initiating master:student relationships, which have a high potential for abuse even in the best circumstances.

Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 07:32 on Apr 8, 2022

Beowulfs_Ghost
Nov 6, 2009

Brawnfire posted:

This is a thought loop I have to push aside a lot during meditation: I am looking forward to sharing my progress meditating. It smacks of approval-seeking, but I am also genuinely enthusiastic about my journey with meditation. And I want to stimulate discussion because discussion stimulated my desire to meditate and made me finally seriously set aside time each day.

If you think if it as an impediment, you can direct some of that "posting" energy to keeping a journal. It would be handy to track your own progress without worrying that you are only doing it for the approval of others. And you could use it to track things that may come and go but aren't the sort of things you may want to publicly post about.

The greater issue of "craving" meditation practice and enlightenment is one that many a Buddhist has gone round and round on to the point of dizziness. In general, it has been accepted that the craving to end the suffering that comes from all the other cravings is justifiable.


prom candy posted:

I have been doing the thought cataloguing or noting practice where I observe my thoughts, note them ("planning, worry, reminiscing, work" etc.) and one of the ones that comes up a lot is "posting" :v:

Also, total aside but just an interesting thing I've observed about my mind. I first started practicing regularly last May or so and I was playing a lot of Apex Legends at the time. I don't play at all anymore and I haven't in probably 6-8 months but during most meditations I get an image of it somewhere near the beginning of the practice. It's neat how strong our neural habits are, and I can see pretty obvious parallels between a relatively benign pattern like that and some of my more harmful ones.

The brain is a funny thing like that.

Buddhism sees people of having 6 senses. The standard 5 of touch, taste, smell, see and hear. And the 6th is sensing thoughts.

Once you have built up the mental muscles to sit back and see thoughts as thoughts, like any other sort of bodily sensation, you can then start to break them apart. Most people pretty quickly get the fact that all things are dukkha. They are unsatisfactory. And most people can pretty quickly see, by patiently watching, that all things are impermanent. And the impermanence is partly why things are unsatisfactory.

The next step is to see that thoughts aren't even a complete thing. They don't have a self. They are made of parts. In Buddhist terminology they are skandhas. Which translates to "heaps" or "aggregates", and there are 5 of them. So they are often explained in English at "The 5 Aggregates"

The classic formulation goes at it from the side of the object. They have Form, the material thing causing what ever it is you are observing. Sensation, the instinctual pleasure/pain/neutral initial reaction. Perception, giving the sensation a name. Mental Formations, your associated memories/karma that are a result of seeing this /good/bad/neutral thing with a given "name". Consciousness, where you are now reacting to all these things put together.

Yogacara also has a variation on this from the point of view of the subject. Basically ignoring the material aspect of it, and just dealing with how this happens from a person's point of view strictly in their own head.


So when it comes to having a thought like "posting", that is a pretty elaborate thought. How many cycles of skandhas did you go through before finally catching yourself at "posting"? Can you rewind through all that to the initial mental itch started the whole cascade to some narrative about posting? Was the feeling of posting good/bad/neutral? Was the thought that made you think about posting good/bad/neutral? Can you see the instant the feeling change from good to bad between the thought of "posting is fun" and "I should be meditating rather than thinking of posting"? Is the good/bad/neutral feeling strictly in your head, or does it manifest as a sensation in the body? Does the sensation come before or after the thought is clear enough to be articulated in words?

Bilirubin
Feb 16, 2014

The sanctioned action is to CHUG


Herstory Begins Now posted:

This is comically absurd and I highly recommend ignoring internet buddhism weirdos and avoiding places that are full of the worst of them as much as possible.

The kernel of truth there is that it is indeed advantageous to find communities with knowledgeable or experienced people both because they generally can provide better guidance and can steer you clear of some of the common pitfalls. But lol that as-stated is so ahistoric and counterfactual. As an aside I've been part of quite casual, sanghas (but also entirely above board by even the strictest definition) where you didn't actually know if the people there were monastics unless they actually felt like sharing it so in many cases I don't know how someone would even know. There are also lay and householder lineages of practice, so add an additional lol onto the heap.

Slightly related but I would be very wary of anyone professing to be a buddhist teacher without some connection to an established tradition/lineage. That's a huge red flag. I don't mean someone claiming to be knowledgeable so much as someone initiating master:student relationships, which have a high potential for abuse even in the best circumstances.

Thank you for this. It speaks directly to my question raised by that internet poster's comment which is why I inquired here.

Also watched that Br. Freedom talk on the sangha, it was a very interesting look into how they are structured and operate.

Brawnfire
Jul 13, 2004

🎧Listen to Cylindricule!🎵
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I'm trying not to give in to materialism by wanting a zafu but also my back doesn't like my current meditation setup...

Achmed Jones
Oct 16, 2004



zafu+zabuton makes meditating so much less painful. I thought I was being kind of silly when I bought them but no, they rule

Brawnfire
Jul 13, 2004

🎧Listen to Cylindricule!🎵
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Is there a thread favorite "basic" set of those two?

Achmed Jones
Oct 16, 2004



Only speaking for myself, but dharmacrafts makes good but pricey stuff, waterglider is cheaper but not quite as fancy. Eg no removable liner, so cleaning is more annoying, but still a very very good product

Brawnfire
Jul 13, 2004

🎧Listen to Cylindricule!🎵
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Oh, I don't need to clean it, I'll build up a nice meditation seasoning. It will have a significant aura

Thirteen Orphans
Dec 2, 2012

I am a writer, a doctor, a nuclear physicist and a theoretical philosopher. But above all, I am a man, a hopelessly inquisitive man, just like you.
I haven’t tried their cushions, but I got my mokugyo from these folks, who are active monastics. They have stuff for big and tall, too.

Beowulfs_Ghost
Nov 6, 2009
I have a dharmacrafts zafu, and I would recommend it. It is way more sturdy than a stack of pillows.

https://dharmacrafts.com/collections/zafu-round-meditation-cushions/products/buckwheat-hull-zafu-classic

For a zabuton I use a large "dog pillow" I found on sale at a big box store.

You can cheap out using a folded up comforter or dog pillow for a zabuton, but a proper zafu is hard to beat. And in my case, I realized I was going to spend almost the same money to get good bed pillows, and they wouldn't have been as nice.

Bilirubin
Feb 16, 2014

The sanctioned action is to CHUG


I have been doing my sitting on my bed with a doubled up pillow for my third point of contact, which seems about my right size...

...except for tonight. Well, I tried. Corona said "nope not like that". I had intended to do a 30 minute guided meditation on calm to heal, but had to stop after about 6 minutes. So I got myself resettled, scrolled some dharma talks, but still wanted to meditate, so I went back to tried and true prone back laying, and it worked great. I managed 30 minutes rather effortlessly and could have gone further had I not had a sudden burst of coughing.

Cool thing was after a certain point, say 15-20 or so, things calmed down around me. The sounds of the busting downtown faded into the background (even the glass packed racing motorcyles that are out again), and emerging from that was birdsong. Robins are back! And I could feel the entirety of my body at once. Very cool, I am glad that you (and the sutra) encouraged I motor on ram das!

It also helped last night when was very feverish, trying to sleep yet mentally my entire world was locked into my bed. I could not normally drift off, it was like I was locked into this non sleep state. A short mindful reset got me past that and I slept a straight 7 hours.

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!



I have had a moment of struggle with my own practice, paltry though it is. I had often been taking a nice five-ten minute sit while taking my blood pressure for long term monitoring, except that after a bad scare which was likely a mixture of anxiety and missing a single dose of the medicine I take, I have had real trouble getting back into a good mind state and bodily calm during these periods. I was able today to brute-force it a bit just by doing breathe in for four count, breathe out for four count, but I know that I had in a sense become dependent on these correlations.

What are your pro tips for getting a bit of sitting time in or do you just block out a chunk of time and make it a red line in your daily routine?

As for reading... this is dense stuff and the same chaotic mentality stuff that affected me from the above kept me from really digging in, but the thing that stood out to me from the four Rights that I got through in Heart was the analogy of watering a field and nurturing some seeds. It's a fruitful kind of analogy I thought, especially since it also handily explains why sometimes some things just don't have much appeal to some people or are easy to resist; their fields, so to speak, lack these seeds, or at least very many of them.

prom candy
Dec 16, 2005

Only I may dance

Nessus posted:

What are your pro tips for getting a bit of sitting time in or do you just block out a chunk of time and make it a red line in your daily routine?

I have a daily to-do list with all my habits I need to do on it (meditate, read for ten minutes, practice music for ten minutes, etc). No video games until everything on the list is done. Replace video games with whatever your end of day unwind activity is.

Brawnfire
Jul 13, 2004

🎧Listen to Cylindricule!🎵
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Well the forty minute meditations have been going well, or would be if my son would stop waking up randomly

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!



Brawnfire posted:

Well the forty minute meditations have been going well, or would be if my son would stop waking up randomly
If the child is old enough, invite him to sit with you, imo.

Of course this is difficult if the child is yet unable to sit

Beowulfs_Ghost
Nov 6, 2009

Nessus posted:

What are your pro tips for getting a bit of sitting time in or do you just block out a chunk of time and make it a red line in your daily routine?

My morning sit is after I have my coffee, to make sure I'm totally awake.

And my evening sit is after I take a shower, which also has the effect of making my mind alert. And that is after making dinner and doing any other chores.

So it isn't so much a hard and fast time I set, as it is making sure the conditions are right. That also means the morning sit is a bit more of a work out. I'll read the news and make plans for the day while having that cup of coffee, so my mind is more prone to be chattering for the morning sit.



Brawnfire posted:

Well the forty minute meditations have been going well, or would be if my son would stop waking up randomly

I take it your son is rather young. Little kids, say toddler to kindergarten, are great meditation tools. You really have to keep yourself in the here and now around them.

Another idea would be to read Zen Mind Beginners Mind, and really cultivate an appreciation for seeing the world with as little conceptualization and judgement as possible. The way little kids see the world.

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Brawnfire
Jul 13, 2004

🎧Listen to Cylindricule!🎵
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Nessus posted:

If the child is old enough, invite him to sit with you, imo.

Of course this is difficult if the child is yet unable to sit

He's like, ~1.3 so I pretty much aim for while he's sleeping at night. Which either is hours of still silence, or hours punctuated by his randomly waking and needed to be soothed back to sleep.

I tried meditating while holding him one time and I woke up at 2 AM

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