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theironjef posted:Yeah, like once. After that it just becomes an assumed part of the story of optimal characters going forward. All "Yeah, much like most paladins I took a warlock dip because I uhhhh something fey patron something something dedicated warrior." Right. Like most charop-based complexity it's only fun once per character and only challenging once per guide written. Not worth sacrificing more important design principles for, etc, and then we're right back to "yeah core+1 is looking pretty good."
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May 7, 2022 00:00
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Andrast posted:I am the target audience for splat bloat. Same CitizenKeen posted:PHB + 1 is traditionally a character limit, not a campaign limit. So Alice can play with PHB + Tome of the Blade Wizards and Bob can play with PHB + The Underhanded Petmaster's Handbook. Definitely the sensible way to go Absurd Alhazred posted:If people learn nothing else from Into the Odd, Troika!, and the like, they should learn that character options are worldbuilding. True, there was a great set of posts on an OSR blog(I'll dig up links later) about making a giant chart of various classes(ranging from basic stuff like Fighter to weird esoteric stuff like being a Crab Man) from a range of different sources, with the idea that you'd roll X number of times and the resulting choices would be the default selection of classes for that campaign, and then using that selection to figure out what sort of setting it is
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May 7, 2022 01:16
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drrockso20 posted:Same Found it, The OSR Class Shaker, first article introduces the concept, while the second article expands the idea further Been meaning to make my own version of the chart stuffed to the brim with as many classes as (in)humanly possible
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May 7, 2022 02:32
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Ah, so FFV Fiesta but TTRPG. Sounds fun!
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May 7, 2022 03:30
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Andrast posted:I am the target audience for splat bloat. If you don't know the slang this post becomes something frightening to see in the light of day.
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May 7, 2022 15:57
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Andrast posted:I am the target audience for splat bloat. Honestly I'd at least be morbidly curious to see what D&D would look like if it were just as sprawling and huge but had M:TG's curated ban list and exhaustive thousands-of-pages errata and rulings documentation. Jimbozig's right in that the existence of bad design doesn't mean good design is impossible, I just don't think that outside of the two extreme ends of "self-motivated perfectionist auteur" and "megacorp with infinite resources to throw at the problem and a strong financial incentive to do so" there are many people both willing and able to balance really large, really complex games. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 21:43 on May 7, 2022 |
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May 7, 2022 21:41
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Honestly I'd at least be morbidly curious to see what D&D would look like if it were just as sprawling and huge but had M:TG's curated ban list and exhaustive thousands-of-pages errata and rulings documentation. The Tier System that was developed for 3.5 leans in that direction, at least if you follow up with some of the suggestions I've seen about banning any classes that are in the top two tiers(though some of them can be made more balanced surprisingly easily with just a few tweaks) or the bottommost tier and only allow classes from Tiers 3 and 4(and one or two of the better Tier 5 classes, particularly if you don't mind tweaking them too) Of course you'd still be playing 3.5 so there would still be plenty of problems but it would be a little more workable
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May 7, 2022 23:08
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I feel like I would enjoy playing 'Pathfinder 1e but literally everything in the online SRD is fair game, as long as we all agree to a single tier'. Tier 3/4 makes the most sense. Make it a gestalt game for maximum gonzo. Yeah dude I am totally playing a Spheres of Might + Vizier, lemme look up how my wacky different powers interact in my 20 pages of notes because none of these rules are common to any other characters.
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May 8, 2022 07:37
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It is kind of fascinating how 3.5e D&D spawned numerous play variants like E6/E7/E8, where characters stop leveling up at X level and get extra feats after that, or gestalt play, where characters level two classes simultaneously. They're all kind of indicative of 3e's peculiar issues around the martial/caster class imbalances and various ways people try to address them.
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May 8, 2022 16:21
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I still like Monte Cook's take on 3.0/3.5 class rebalancing in Arcana Evolved. I know that name is treated as the Anti-Christ of game design in this forum by many, but I still think that AE's classes work.
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May 8, 2022 17:14
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Humbug Scoolbus posted:I still like Monte Cook's take on 3.0/3.5 class rebalancing in Arcana Evolved. I know that name is treated as the Anti-Christ of game design in this forum by many, but I still think that AE's classes work. It is? He's just a boring dude. There's way worse designers than ol' "This planet is full of wizards but you can't call them wizards!" guy.
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May 8, 2022 17:17
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PerniciousKnid posted:What about using the minute hand of a clock instead of dice? "You swing your sword, it's... 9:01, you drop the sword and get run through." Late response but I've run some very off the cuff games using the second hand modulo 20 as a source of "randomness". It's all fun and games until people realize what you're doing and start trying to time their actions
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May 8, 2022 17:36
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Monte Cook's name is far from mud, he's just kinda...mediocre at things and mostly just comes to properties or ideas after these ideas have been circulated for a minute and had their ideas integrated in other or better ways y'know? The Cypher system is alright for what it is, it's need it's got an option for kids for a more structured play for little ones, but that doesn't mean it's not a d20 system with some Fate bolted on with those mechanics internally monetized like a freemium service. When it comes to something like Invisible Sun I think we were more just making fun of the idea and the execution more than the man himself. He's a reliable worker, he gets stuff done and he wouldn't have the clout he does in the industry if he didn't, but he's also an inveterate promoter and some of his games are frankly either just silly or bad. But also at least he actually has ideas and you can look at his works to figure out just what the hell is going on without feeling like you're reading healthcare law.
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May 8, 2022 18:01
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Besides, Monte Cook's problem has always been that he keeps talking about how he needs to update his game design for modern standards but keeps releasing games that are still fundamentally rooted in 3e game design. Arcana Unearthed/Evolved are 3e products, so that isn't a problem.
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May 8, 2022 18:28
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MC isn’t great at mechanical design but is terrible for overhyping creativity in cases where it’s actually mediocre. The Invisible Sun secrets were one of the worst examples.
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May 8, 2022 19:13
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GetDunked posted:Late response but I've run some very off the cuff games using the second hand modulo 20 as a source of "randomness". It's all fun and games until people realize what you're doing and start trying to time their actions
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May 8, 2022 22:07
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Lurks With Wolves posted:Besides, Monte Cook's problem has always been that he keeps talking about how he needs to update his game design for modern standards but keeps releasing games that are still fundamentally rooted in 3e game design. Arcana Unearthed/Evolved are 3e products, so that isn't a problem. Humbug Scoolbus posted:I still like Monte Cook's take on 3.0/3.5 class rebalancing in Arcana Evolved. I know that name is treated as the Anti-Christ of game design in this forum by many, but I still think that AE's classes work. I mean, he is kind of an anti-Christ if you want to torture the metaphor enough, in that there are people who are trying to move beyond the old 3e problems, and he says that he's one of them but actually isn't. Not in an actively deceptive or malicious way, just in that sort of 3e delusional way where you said that you were a GM who lets people take their own initiative and find the adventure, show up with a premade module, and just flail around for a couple of nowhere sessions while the PCs try to find the adventure with no help from you. You know that they're good words to say, you just have no idea how to make them mean something. Like, the Vector, the fighter guy from The Strange, his dimension-hopping game, puts down in the description "they are often natural leaders, because vectors are not simple brutes but driven, motivated individuals who figure out what they want and go and get it." Oh, okay, so when I level up in this class I can pick some fighting maneuvers or some other things that will... help me motivate and lead people? Help me act in pursuit of my personal goals? Nope! Those are good words to say, but all you get from leveling up is combat maneuvers and resilience, you simple brute. (And if you want to take the Leads focus? Oops, all intellect pool!) If you need me I'll be over here playing my Grim World Battlemaster, starting the game with the ability to count up Gambit points whenever anybody in the party takes damage and freely spending them to make anyone the next step in my cunning plan. You know, like a leader does. Glazius fucked around with this message at 22:42 on May 8, 2022 |
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May 8, 2022 22:37
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Splicer posted:I'm now thinking of a stopwatch as less a randomiser and more a mechanic itself? Start stopwatch, then stop stopwatch, the higher you get the better but if you go over your skill it's a failure. C'mon down! You're the next player on The Dice is Right!
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May 8, 2022 23:08
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Humbug Scoolbus posted:I still like Monte Cook's take on 3.0/3.5 class rebalancing in Arcana Evolved. I know that name is treated as the Anti-Christ of game design in this forum by many, but I still think that AE's classes work. Magister is "more powerful wizard with more flexible casting." Greenbond, too. A bit better balance in the spells themselves, maybe? But when you pelt giant fuckoff flex-element d8 fireballs that don't give a target a save, it's questionable. Oh and the feats that let you target Intelligence for saves, those are classy. Oathsworn? Worse monk with robot poo poo. Witch? Really awful partial caster with a lovely core mechanic. Mageblade? Another bad partial caster with hideous saves. Akashic? Cool concept! But it's a worse Rogue, mostly. It's absolutely, and in no sense, better balanced.
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May 8, 2022 23:50
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yea all of Cook's 'redesigns' were just 'core class, but worse with a useless gimmick taped to it to 'make up' for the worseness'
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May 9, 2022 01:27
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All I remember about Arcana Unearthed was making a Mageblade and feeling like I had to burn my first-level feat on something that gave me the money to start with a masterwork weapon, so I could start with an athame I could actually keep and enhance. I'm not sure d20 ever figured out how to make a "cool signature weapon you won't have to throw away later to stay optimal" class work.
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May 9, 2022 03:08
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Antivehicular posted:All I remember about Arcana Unearthed was making a Mageblade and feeling like I had to burn my first-level feat on something that gave me the money to start with a masterwork weapon, so I could start with an athame I could actually keep and enhance. I'm not sure d20 ever figured out how to make a "cool signature weapon you won't have to throw away later to stay optimal" class work. 3.x Oriental Adventures had a samurai class that started with a katana and could take it to a shrine every level or so to pour money on it, which would then upgrade it to correct for whatever level the samurai was. It sucked though because besides the sword, the class was fighter with feats on third level instead of every other level. And the sword thing was based on character level so if you wanted it you could just go Samurai 1 then jump to whatever and have an on-level magic sword forever. Even then the point of the game was finding magic gear so who cared? It basically served as a guarantee that the DM could ignore putting treasure in dungeons for you specifically.
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May 9, 2022 03:23
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GetDunked posted:Late response but I've run some very off the cuff games using the second hand modulo 20 as a source of "randomness". It's all fun and games until people realize what you're doing and start trying to time their actions I know LIFTS: Powered by your ABpocalypse uses the stopwatch as a randomiser (somewhat). quote:The Muscle Master will time on a stopwatch one player as they
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May 9, 2022 04:55
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Antivehicular posted:All I remember about Arcana Unearthed was making a Mageblade and feeling like I had to burn my first-level feat on something that gave me the money to start with a masterwork weapon, so I could start with an athame I could actually keep and enhance. I'm not sure d20 ever figured out how to make a "cool signature weapon you won't have to throw away later to stay optimal" class work.
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May 9, 2022 10:31
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Humbug Scoolbus posted:I still like Monte Cook's take on 3.0/3.5 class rebalancing in Arcana Evolved. I know that name is treated as the Anti-Christ of game design in this forum by many, but I still think that AE's classes work. A lot of people already replied to this, but I'll throw in my feelings, too. I'm also of the mind that Monte isn't some great evil, he's just a guy who could leverage his 3e designer cred to spin off into other high-production projects with good marketing behind them. As far as actually designing games goes, he doesn't seem to engage much with cutting edge stuff, but clearly he doesn't have to. There's always something a bit tin-eared about his design choices, like he's aware of some issues in games he's developed but he doesn't fully comprehend the scope of the issue or like what's needed to address things. Or he just completely misses the point on some stuff, like with Monte Cookie's World of Darkness.
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May 9, 2022 13:55
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I mean, Cooks biggest sin is being mediocre with does not really qualify as great evil of tabletop. But as far as I know he never said something nasty, and he pays his contributors, so I really do not mind him making his great looking but mediocre games.
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May 9, 2022 14:15
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theironjef posted:3.x Oriental Adventures had a samurai class that started with a katana and could take it to a shrine every level or so to pour money on it, which would then upgrade it to correct for whatever level the samurai was.
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May 9, 2022 14:35
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Monte is just disappointing. Mearls is the cackling enemy of all that is good and pure and actually designed.
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May 9, 2022 14:49
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theironjef posted:3.x Oriental Adventures had a samurai class that started with a katana and could take it to a shrine every level or so to pour money on it, which would then upgrade it to correct for whatever level the samurai was.
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May 9, 2022 15:02
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I have it on good authority he's lun-ey
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May 9, 2022 15:07
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I must be in gamer groups from another reality than the ones that post here. I've tried running FATE-based and PbTA as well as 4e and 5e, but gotten no traction. Arcana Evolved, Weapons of the Gods, d20 7th Sea, Blue Planet, and even Kuro and Earthdawn have been a lot more popular.
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May 9, 2022 16:30
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Humbug Scoolbus posted:I must be in gamer groups from another reality than the ones that post here. I've tried running FATE-based and PbTA as well as 4e and 5e, but gotten no traction. Arcana Evolved, Weapons of the Gods, d20 7th Sea, Blue Planet, and even Kuro and Earthdawn have been a lot more popular. Rather than another reality, that just sounds like from another generation. Those games are all from a very small time window. Aside from Blue Planet, which was from 1997 those were all new or newly republished in 2005. So either you're posting through a time hole from back when these forums were also super popular, or your group got into (non-D&D) RPGs in 2005 and their tastes ossified nearly instantly.
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May 9, 2022 16:48
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Halloween Jack posted:The best version of this was probably the Ancestral Relic feat in the Book of Exalted Deeds, where you got a special heirloom that would keep getting more powerful if you keep sacrificing money/items to it. BoED wasn’t the one with vow of poverty was it? A friend ran a 20th level short campaign and I gave up after getting 4-5 characters shot down for being too dumb of gimmicks/potentially too strong (almost everyone else was playing “cleric who can only really heal” and similar so I wasn’t trying to push power) so I looked into vow of poverty monk because then I didn’t have to think about items and apparently people were really aplit on whether it was wayy OP or just a nice way to not have to worry your DM wouldn’t give you a +dex item. For those not in the know: vow of poverty was just “get no gold, but receive decent stat boosts and a couple specific feats every few levels.”
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May 9, 2022 17:27
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Jimbozig posted:Rather than another reality, that just sounds like from another generation. Those games are all from a very small time window. Aside from Blue Planet, which was from 1997 those were all new or newly republished in 2005. I started gaming with some of this group in 1978 and the newest members (including DMs) joined in 2019.
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May 9, 2022 17:28
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Chakan posted:BoED wasn’t the one with vow of poverty was it? A friend ran a 20th level short campaign and I gave up after getting 4-5 characters shot down for being too dumb of gimmicks/potentially too strong (almost everyone else was playing “cleric who can only really heal” and similar so I wasn’t trying to push power) so I looked into vow of poverty monk because then I didn’t have to think about items and apparently people were really aplit on whether it was wayy OP or just a nice way to not have to worry your DM wouldn’t give you a +dex item.
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May 9, 2022 17:34
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Terrible Opinions posted:Vow of Poverty is a pretty infamously underpowered trap option compared to just getting normal loot. Thinking back to 3.X design, I LOVED what 3.5’s Regional feats for FR/OA represented, thought it was a cool design space, and also knew instantly the implementation was pure trash. Feats that help bring out the flavor of where your character’s from (like every adult in X region being in the militia, so even a wizard can use 2-3 good weapons and gets +2 spot), while being intentionally “stronger” than a normal feat, that’s cool. Can only take at 1st level, uhhh your options are already real low, isn’t this de-incentivizing taking one…? Oh good, there’s no balance at all, delightful. One gives you 5 fire resistance, another gives a bonus to spell save DC & spell penetration. A lot are those “+2 to two specific skills”, but instead it’s THREE skills!!! One is “Toughness, but +5 hp instead” oooh game breaking! Should have just been a bonus feat in whatever campaign world, and stuck closer to flavorful that being another way to min max. 
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May 9, 2022 17:52
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Terrible Opinions posted:Vow of Poverty is a pretty infamously underpowered trap option compared to just getting normal loot.
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May 9, 2022 17:58
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Terrible Opinions posted:Vow of Poverty is a pretty infamously underpowered trap option compared to just getting normal loot. It seems like a concept that obviously needs a GM tool for revising based on the campaign loot level.
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May 9, 2022 18:04
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Yeah it was only good if your DM was deliberately giving you no loot, which surprise surprise hurt martials more than casters.
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May 9, 2022 18:13
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I played a Vow of Poverty Monk and had a great time with it, especially having to work with a Cleric from a god of wealth.
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May 9, 2022 18:17
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