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TooMuchAbstraction posted:You're not wrong about this, but I think it bears emphasizing just how loving risky it is to try new stuff. If you have a machine that prints money, why the hell would you mess with it? From Software has spent the better part of two decades refining their formula, and now are able to put out a new game every few years that will reliably be a modest success. That's goddamn amazing for gamedev; very few studios get to that point. Absolutely. I don't really mean to say that any individual person or entity is making the *wrong* decision, but I think it's a real, significant effect and I think that innovation really has been in decline in the recent past. Of course, I acknowledge it could just be a bias, but it's why I think if people care about this kind of thing, I don't think it's a mistake to look at some older stuff and see how things were done differently for some kind of inspiration, since it's not just nostalgia. I also do think there's a lot of room to be successful in doing this kind of thing. I'd agree it's risky, but I also think that people respond to innovation. Look at the battle royale genre - it's one of the most explicitly, clearly new things that's come out in a while (even though it's already progressed to the iterated on and smooth and potentially stale stage of things), and it's led to some of the biggest games out there and huge, wild successes It gives me hope that we aren't stuck in a place where this is as good as it gets, there's still lots of potential. It's not clear to me how to make that kind of thing happen, though. I got frustrated in the VR space with this same kind of thing happening, so I started making my own stuff, and while that's working for me personally, it's also not clear how to make a wider impact than just working on whatever I can
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Jun 10, 2022 20:56
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Lemming posted:Absolutely. I don't really mean to say that any individual person or entity is making the *wrong* decision, but I think it's a real, significant effect and I think that innovation really has been in decline in the recent past. Of course, I acknowledge it could just be a bias, but it's why I think if people care about this kind of thing, I don't think it's a mistake to look at some older stuff and see how things were done differently for some kind of inspiration, since it's not just nostalgia. Innovation matters very little. Most of the big titles weren't really innovative. Instead they synthesized ideas at a very high level of execution.
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Jun 10, 2022 21:02
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Lemming posted:Absolutely. I don't really mean to say that any individual person or entity is making the *wrong* decision, but I think it's a real, significant effect and I think that innovation really has been in decline in the recent past. Of course, I acknowledge it could just be a bias, but it's why I think if people care about this kind of thing, I don't think it's a mistake to look at some older stuff and see how things were done differently for some kind of inspiration, since it's not just nostalgia. Again, there's plenty of innovation in the indie space, because (by the nature of the environment indies develop in) there has to be. Look there for the new stuff. Do not look to AAA to take risks and experiment with the format, because they're not going to do it. They'll wait for someone to discover something new, and then they'll refine it and show what can happen if you throw a hundred million dollars or more at it. Innovation has not be in decline. What's been in decline is the visibility of the innovation that's happening, because so much of the press is dedicated to covering AAA content, and AAA content is not about innovating.
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Jun 10, 2022 21:07
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leper khan posted:Innovation matters very little. Most of the big titles weren't really innovative. Instead they synthesized ideas at a very high level of execution. I mean, if that were completely true and innovation barely mattered then platformers would still be the biggest games. I agree it's not the only factor, but I think it's very clear that people as a whole still do value new and interesting things, even if it's not valued *as much* as something familiar that's well executed. There's obviously a factor where bigger budget studios and game devs can take new ideas from smaller guys, iterate on it and polish it a bit, then release it at a higher level of quality to a broader audience, which is a little unfair, but that wouldn't be a successful strategy if people weren't interested in things that were new to them TooMuchAbstraction posted:Again, there's plenty of innovation in the indie space, because (by the nature of the environment indies develop in) there has to be. Look there for the new stuff. Do not look to AAA to take risks and experiment with the format, because they're not going to do it. They'll wait for someone to discover something new, and then they'll refine it and show what can happen if you throw a hundred million dollars or more at it. I dunno, I wouldn't try to argue there's no innovation in the indie space, and there's too much to be aware of for some of the reasons you've outlined, but I feel like we're getting more and more to the stage where people making video games as a whole have been playing video games for so long that it's getting more difficult not to think about making stuff in the context of stuff they've already played before. It feels like it's difficult to create new things when you're so influenced by things that already exist, you're kind of primed to consider doing things in a similar way to how you've seen it done before I'm not trying to argue it's not happening, but it feels like the industry is kind of stagnant right now, to me
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Jun 10, 2022 21:15
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Lemming posted:I mean, if that were completely true and innovation barely mattered then platformers would still be the biggest games. I agree it's not the only factor, but I think it's very clear that people as a whole still do value new and interesting things, even if it's not valued *as much* as something familiar that's well executed. There's obviously a factor where bigger budget studios and game devs can take new ideas from smaller guys, iterate on it and polish it a bit, then release it at a higher level of quality to a broader audience, which is a little unfair, but that wouldn't be a successful strategy if people weren't interested in things that were new to them If platformers sold the way open world games did, they would still be made in anger by large studios. Platformers have a lower cap on total spend and total rev. If someone finds a way to decouple that genre from it's current limits, you'll have a lot of people aping that monetization incredibly quickly.
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Jun 10, 2022 21:18
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Video games are maturing as an art form, and like every other form of art there will be cycles of iteration and innovation. Like every other art form, the more resources the artists need to produce their vision, the more that vision will be compromised by the people providing the resources. Like every other art form, there are examples of bad but successful art and good but unknown art. Like every other art form, media coverage is inequitable and biased. Like every other art form, most of what you're seeing right now isn't what you're going to remember fondly in 10 years. Video games have the supreme disadvantages of being platform dependent and generally locked behind many layers of rights, and that's only getting worse. It's already very difficult to play many of the foundational works in the genre, and it's going to get more so as technology continues to progress. Preservation efforts are important. As for what you can do? Enjoy the games you enjoy! Seek out the weird and wild, going beyond Steam or even Itch. Support the people trying to make it outside the system. Support archives and incubators, if you can. Maybe a game you love will be co-opted by Ubisoft and become the next big thing! Games may be maturing, but we're still young, and there's a lot of "out there" still to find.
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Jun 10, 2022 21:50
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Lemming posted:I dunno, I wouldn't try to argue there's no innovation in the indie space, and there's too much to be aware of for some of the reasons you've outlined, but I feel like we're getting more and more to the stage where people making video games as a whole have been playing video games for so long that it's getting more difficult not to think about making stuff in the context of stuff they've already played before. It feels like it's difficult to create new things when you're so influenced by things that already exist, you're kind of primed to consider doing things in a similar way to how you've seen it done before OK, it sounds to me like you're arguing that people whose only experience is from within a certain bubble are going to have trouble expressing concepts that are outside of that bubble. And sure, that may be true, but the bubble is not just the mechanics, genre conventions, etc. of the videogames they've played. It's also the books they've read, the parts of the world they've explored, the relationships they've had, basically everything that sums up their life experience. Mechanics and genre conventions are just convenient tools. If someone goes to make a game, and they find the tools available to them aren't up to the task for whatever reason, they will find or invent new ones. Part of being a good game developer is cultivating a mental library of tools and experiences, and understanding how they are most effectively used.
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Jun 10, 2022 22:04
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rojay posted:
My very personal take is that a vast majority of reviewers are overworked and underqualified to review media. There are notable exceptions and even variance for any one reviewer because qualifications differ. This results in a clustering of review sentiments around whatever the publishers told the reviewers the game was like, because that framing pre-exists the game and it's a safe way for a reviewer who is unable to find a novel take on a game to not stand out as accidentally wrong. E: and on the AAA front, a lot of AAA games take significant risks prior to launch, and they may not survive iterations. What emerges out the end can very well do so because it happens to be the best, but the biggest risk taking in AAA is art and polish. Indie games compromise on speed or polish, but AAA can't, and what defines your A level more than anything now is probably art and performance budget, which IS risky. It takes a ton of money to make games big shiny games, and a lot of them still flop. To say that they're not taking risks is to simply redefine risk away from the thing you want them to take risks on. Hell God of War 2 has been in dev for years and a bunch of gamers are mad that character models and animations looked the same in some promo footage despite there being mountains of new unique art in the game. If ANYTHING looks reused or familiar people will feel like the value is damaged. MJBuddy fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Jun 10, 2022 |
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Jun 10, 2022 22:56
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:As a small-time indie dev, it's not quite 100% accurate to say that any coverage is good coverage. But my #1 problem is getting eyeballs on my game, so my default assumption is "oh cool, I've been seen!". I've had some published reviews on gaming sites that clearly didn't really "get it", but I'm still happy that they wrote something and were engaging the game on its own terms. Assuming Code Monkey is right, what you're saying is basically true but there's far fewer and far sharper breakpoints then you'd think. This video was published this week: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y94QHxSUKco
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Jun 11, 2022 06:36
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So I'm wanting to mess around with making sim stuff with weird control schemes. I'm also pretty sure its going to need some procedural gen element to movement so cover up control limitations (like i've been looking for foot pedals that would work and theirs nothing precise enough). What engine would be good for this? Where do I start?
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Jun 11, 2022 07:07
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Armadillo Tank posted:So I'm wanting to mess around with making sim stuff with weird control schemes. You might want to ask this in the Making Games Megathread, which is much more about the technical process of game development; this thread is more about the industry as a whole. That said, a) I don't really understand what you mean by "weird control schemes", but b) it probably also doesn't really matter, because all of the major game engines should have equivalent amounts of trouble with control schemes. Pick engines based on how well their designs work with how you/your team thinks, and how well the engine is supported. Unity, Unreal, and Godot are the big three right now and they should all be capable of doing pretty much whatever.
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Jun 11, 2022 15:00
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MJBuddy posted:what defines your A level more than anything now is probably art and performance budget Or marketing budget, really.
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Jun 11, 2022 17:35
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rojay posted:I would be very interested to know what developers think about the people who review their games. Do you see a significant difference between "mainstream" coverage in the press and bloggers/vloggers or "influencers"? TooMuchAbstraction posted:There's two main reasons why you see so much more experimentation in the indie space. The first is that budgets are much smaller (like, two orders of magnitude smaller!). That means that indies simply can't follow the latest formulae, which tend to have very high minimum investments to produce. You can't realistically do a good open-world game as a small indie studio, for example. The second reason is that indies are desperate to be seen, and one of the ways to do that is to make something that's different from what everyone else is doing.
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Jun 12, 2022 05:53
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Again, AAA games take risks. Their failures are spectacular and 4 or 5 news sites will write up immense post mortems after probably hundreds of hours of research, interviews, writing, legal wrangly to avoid NDA violations, etc. The failure rate on AAA is smaller than budget indie, but that makes sense, but it's still very high and things on paper that sound like cash registers falter all the time. And I don't think all players are AAA vs Indie. There's a lot of AAA only players and fewer Indie only, but a lot of players (especially now, thanks Game Pass) play a mix of the two and can appreciate different things about them. Like, for example, my kids asked me to play Avengers for them, and that game had a ton of flak and reported sales problems despite on paper being an obvious money maker. The single player story content is on par with Uncharted games, and the immense amount of unique art in those levels is impressive to me, the VO and mocap is great, the combat effects (not design) are polished like a crystal. I can see the money spent in virtually every aspect of that game. And yet, it's struggled immensely. And there's reasons why that is, but "We're making a AAA live service game with a franchise that has made 26 Billion in box office sales, using a team of top notch AAA devs who make excellent GOTY adventure games as it's backbone" didn't meet their goals. Crystal Dynamics are excellent devs who make excellent, polished AAA games! And they did what they always do, and did it with what is probably the most valuable franchise in the world, and still had problems.
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Jun 12, 2022 06:15
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OneEightHundred posted:If that audience didn't exist, then AAA studios would just be pumping out higher quantities of lower-budget games, reallocating production budget to marketing, or just be taking more risks and accepting the failures as the cost of doing business. It might be worth noting that AAA publishers - Microsoft, Electronic Arts etc. - engage in this all the time, via programs like EA Originals. The M.O. there more or less involves scouting out studios that are making quality non-AAA titles and giving them a chunk of money in exchange for things like exclusivity agreements. Many of these won't be huge hits, but as you said - cost of doing business. So, these big publishers see these as two different arms of the business - high budget AAA projects to draw in the crowd that cares about that, relatively low budget programs like this to find the next big thing and draw in the crowd that cares more about other things than polish.
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Jun 12, 2022 09:13
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Another option for indies with limited resources is to take something very simple and polish the hell out of it. Downwell is basically a proc-gen platformer and a vertical shmup thrown in a blender with a 2-bit color palette but the controls and sound are so tight I've spent more time playing it than anything since BotW.
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Jun 12, 2022 17:23
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Yeah, most indies are basically either "small scope but polished" or "big scope and janky as gently caress". There's lots to recommend either way; the big-scope indie games tend to have a lot of charm because you can really see the creative imprint of the small number of people that worked on it. Those are also the games that are going to tickle those retro neurons in a lot of gamers, since they'll feel roughly similar to what commercial games were like 20-30 years ago.
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Jun 12, 2022 21:37
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shame on an IGA posted:Another option for indies with limited resources is to take something very simple and polish the hell out of it. There is a ton of room for simplifying and combining two genres into one novel game. You see this in game jams. Give me more Friday Night Funkins and Snakebirds. I personally miss the PS2 days when big publishers took risks publishing things like Katamari Damacy and Mister Mosquito. Since then AAA costs have balooned and I would have liked to see money put into indie labels like record companies do. Weird risks should be more attractive as costs for the safe things explode, not less. Admittedly this is just adding to the narrow rose-tinted view of the industry. There have always been high-profile titles that experiment or innovate just a tiny bit. You still get things like Grow Home or Ms. Splosion Man nowadays with huge publishers backing them, and Mister Mosquito wasn't that good. The industry has grown since then and so have gamers. It just hits different now.
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Jun 16, 2022 15:56
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You just don't need a AAA publisher to make those games now. Katamari was made on a $1m budget supposedly, and tons of avenues exist now to get your game noticed and get publishing deals in place to replicate older AAA awareness. We live in an era where you can make games more cheaply and realize a bigger success than then, and those games exist in indie space when AAA devs want to make them, like Lucas Pope's games, or anything Devolver makes. Like, especially in Game Pass age, you've got about publishers of excellent quality putting indie games on Game Pass frequently in Devolver, Humble, Raw Fury, Tinybuild, Paradox, No More Robots, Curve, Annapurna, 11 bit, and others, but I've played games from all of those indie publishers on the platform with low risk. Sure, Microsoft doesn't directly publish or develop as many indie games but they've created a platform (like Steam and itch.io have as well) that greatly expands access to them. I don't really care where they come from, really.
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Jun 16, 2022 16:32
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For perspective, Katamari Damacy came out in 2004, the same year as Half-Life 2 - which was made on a budget of $40 million or so. (Plus other big AAA titles like Dragon Quest VIII, Doom 3 and World of Warcraft, for which I can't find reliable numbers, but each is surely in the excess of $20 million). So while Katamari Damacy was a game that was quirky and fun in an odd way, it was never a AAA title, even by the standards of the day. And, it's true that it has never been easier to publish a game than it is today. You don't need a big publisher to get your game on Steam or consoles. If the fear is that there's some big potential space of games that are not being made because Bandai Namco are too busy publishing titles like Elden Ring instead, I think that fear is unfounded. Those games can still be made and are still made, to a quality that just wasn't possible 20 years ago, with smaller budgets even. It doesn't matter that it's not AAA publishers publishing them. Gamers have been eating ludicrously well for a long time now and there's no sign it's stopping.
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Jun 16, 2022 17:11
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BallisticClipboard posted:How did you guys get past the anxiety of applying to a company? I'm fresh out of college with a game design degree and 3 awful game projects on my itch. I never focused in any role while in school so I feel so very unprepared for any job. My friends in my game dev are basically telling me to shoot my shot but I am terrified of flaming out spectacularly in any interview. What did you guys do to feel ready? So I'm late to the party here but I think I have a reasonably good answer: You get over the anxiety by realizing you aren't going to get the job, or even an interview. You are going to apply to a company or two and you are not going to hear back. Then you are going to do it again and again. It is practice, and you are going to keep practicing and applying because you're in it to improve, not to get hired. What will happen is that you will do this for a bit and then at some point, seemingly out of the blue, you actually WILL hear back. Then you will go through this entire process again, but with interviews rather than applications, and you should approach it in EXACTLY THE SAME WAY. You are praciticing, there are a ton of other qualified candidates out there (many of whom are probably more qualified than you), but none of that matters because you are practicing and improving at the task (which is now interviewing for game dev jobs). What will happen then is one day they call you back and then you get to freak out ALL OVER AGAIN because you are going to have to start a job at a game studio and, get this, you will approach it EXACTLY the same way. You will be confused and suck, and you will practice and improve, and you just keep repeating this forever until you die and that's ok. The only other big pieces of advice I can give with regards to this are to not focus only on studios that you personally are a fan of (because you need more practice and it's unlikely you'll get hired for your first choice) and finally that when you do get that first interview, practice nerding out in advance. If you do not practice, you will either 1.) be too scared to nerd out at all, which is bad because you're trying to show you are a good culture fit and care about the company, or 2.) nerd out wayyyyyyyyyyy too much because you're starstruck and won't interview well as a result. You want to come off as a bit of a fan, and it's ok to even let them know you're self-conscious about it, as long as you also remember you're in an interview and you want to make sure to ask your questions and give your pitch and generally show you not only love their poo poo, but want to do work. I Love You! fucked around with this message at 01:59 on Jun 18, 2022 |
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Jun 18, 2022 00:49
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Don't do what I did and tell them why their latest game sucked, not knowing that the guy sitting awkwardly next to the main interviewer was the lead designer of said game. I did not get asked back for a second round.
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Jun 19, 2022 22:59
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OzyMandrill posted:Don't do what I did and tell them why their latest game sucked, not knowing that the guy sitting awkwardly next to the main interviewer was the lead designer of said game. I did not get asked back for a second round. Uh, yeah do not do this. Good advice.
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Jun 19, 2022 23:38
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OzyMandrill posted:Don't do what I did and tell them why their latest game sucked, not knowing that the guy sitting awkwardly next to the main interviewer was the lead designer of said game. I did not get asked back for a second round. Why bother showing up to an interview if you're going to do that? Might as well stay home.
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Jun 20, 2022 00:03
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VelociBacon posted:Why bother showing up to an interview if you're going to do that? Might as well stay home. Well I didn't intend to do that going in, obviously, but I was young and dumb, and ran my mouth. For reference, it was Killer Instinct Gold, which had just been utterly wiped out by Tekken 2
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Jun 20, 2022 17:28
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Tact matters of course, but I don't think it's out of bounds to offer thoughtful criticism of ways the studio's existing/previous product could have been improved in an interview. Especially if it's in an area relevant to the job you are interviewing for. You should be prepared for pushback of course and be willing to change your perspective if they explain why they considered your solution and how it wasn't actually workable. I recently had a candidate explain how he was disappointed in some technical issues with our game around launch and how he believed if he had been on the team he would have helped foresee and prevent those issues. I am skeptical that he was right about his presence changing things dramatically, but I counted the exchange as reflecting more positive than negative on his candidacy.
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Jun 20, 2022 18:20
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Absolutely. Good, thoughtful criticism of the company's products is usually a bonus, especially if you have a good solution to the issues you bring up, and even more especially if you can speculate about why it was made the way it was. After the initial screener interview, we have our candidates play a specific portion of a game and ask for feedback. The good ones pick up most of the problems we've identified internally and have some ideas about how to address them. The poor ones say "I didn't like it much" and have no more thoughts, or just don't do it at all. I could totally see a younger, more internet-poisoned me barging in to a game company and asking them why they made the new one suck so bad and completely torpedoing the whole thing, though. So, you know, tact.
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Jun 20, 2022 18:47
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Yeah, the secret here is that every single game that has ever been shipped has had problems, and the people who made the game usually know exactly what most of them are. The reasons they never got addressed usually doesn't have anything to do with ignorance, but with other harder to tackle factors like time and money constraints, mutually conflicting issues, risk vs. reward vis-a-vis changing something late in the process, etc. So if you can legitimately list all the things wrong with the latest game we released (in a way that isn't outright hostile), I'd probably see it as a positive. If you can offer up a potential solution I haven't thought of already, even better.
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Jun 20, 2022 19:10
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The players of my game have a lengthy wishlist of features and fixes that they'd like, and there's a bunch of really good ideas in there! Meanwhile I'm slaving away trying to finish the campaign content. I feel bad for them, but I gotta prioritize. Can't ship a game that doesn't have an ending!
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Jun 20, 2022 19:19
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Can't ship a game that doesn't have an ending! While no examples are coming to mind, I feel this is empirically untrue. edit: I mean, you absolutely shouldn't, but I'm sure plenty of people have.
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Jun 20, 2022 20:55
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You can only get away with it if you're Hideo Kojima going through an acrimonious breakup with Konami Or Bungie making a follow-up to a platform-defining flagship
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Jun 20, 2022 20:57
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Yeah, fair. I'm trying to finish my original planned vision, because I failed to realize until I was >50% of the way through that that vision was way too big. And if I start cutting now, then the back third of the game will be suspiciously short compared to the rest of the game. That's what I get for making the game from front to back, instead of from the middle out!
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Jun 20, 2022 21:37
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:The players of my game have a lengthy wishlist of features and fixes that they'd like, and there's a bunch of really good ideas in there! Meanwhile I'm slaving away trying to finish the campaign content. I feel bad for them, but I gotta prioritize. Can't ship a game that doesn't have an ending! Yeah, Early Access (maybe just all gamedev?) feels like triage a lot of the time. We're in a similar situation, where there is an un-ending supply of things that we *could* do that would add so much to the game, but we have to put it on the backburner in the interest of actually shipping the game this decade.
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Jun 20, 2022 22:12
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Vavrek posted:While no examples are coming to mind, I feel this is empirically untrue. From today's headlines: quote:Er, whoops. Aspyr, the developer/porter behind the recent release of Knights Of The Old Republic II on Nintendo Switch, has tweeted that it’s aware the game is currently impossible to finish.
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Jun 21, 2022 01:41
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To be fair that's consistent with my experience playing it on release on pc, hard crashed prior to the final encounter without fail. They're just trying to make a faithful port!
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Jun 21, 2022 01:46
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RIP ZEEZ
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People see that and think "lol, they never even played the game" but the reality is likely "a last minute fix for a completely unrelated issue caused the game to use 4 more bytes of memory and it turned out we only had 2 to spare"
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Jun 21, 2022 15:50
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BallisticClipboard posted:How did you guys get past the anxiety of applying to a company? I'm fresh out of college with a game design degree and 3 awful game projects on my itch. I never focused in any role while in school so I feel so very unprepared for any job. My friends in my game dev are basically telling me to shoot my shot but I am terrified of flaming out spectacularly in any interview. What did you guys do to feel ready? If it helps, I'm a games industry veteran of 22 years. I recently applied for another job, and had massive anxiety during the whole process. Good interviewers helped, they just got me nerding out and it was all fine.
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Jun 21, 2022 21:08
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BallisticClipboard posted:How did you guys get past the anxiety of applying to a company? I'm fresh out of college with a game design degree and 3 awful game projects on my itch. I never focused in any role while in school so I feel so very unprepared for any job. My friends in my game dev are basically telling me to shoot my shot but I am terrified of flaming out spectacularly in any interview. What did you guys do to feel ready? I'm not a gamedev (yet!) but I posted in this thread before applying to 343i a few times. I think my last rejection was... a month ago? Probably doesn't help I'm looking for Community-based positions, I have to imagine everyone with a Twitter account thinks they can be a social media pro. Applying in itself is a milestone. I realized there was a point in my life where I wouldn't even apply to these positions. Now I drop my application in, just to see how far I can get. First application was rejected automatically exactly 24 hours later. The second one made it a few days later, maybe someone even looked at it! Understand that taking that chance and being vulnerable to rejection is strength in itself. Even if you don't get it, it's still very brave to try. Agoat fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Jun 22, 2022 |
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Jun 22, 2022 19:03
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for what it's worth, I don't think games as a whole are any more derivative or any less risk-taking than they were at any earlier period. scummy monetization is more prevalent, sure, but I think a lot of the space of games you're complaining about now would have been taken up by licensed movie game shovelware or flavor of the month genres a couple decades ago.
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Jun 24, 2022 03:41
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djkillingspree posted:for what it's worth, I don't think games as a whole are any more derivative or any less risk-taking than they were at any earlier period. scummy monetization is more prevalent, sure, but I think a lot of the space of games you're complaining about now would have been taken up by licensed movie game shovelware or flavor of the month genres a couple decades ago. And a lot of licensed games have moved off of AAA and into mid level development. Outright Games basically does everything Activision and EA used to do for movie and TV show tie ins, and there's 10 companies most of have never heard of doing the same on mobile to directly hit kids markets. Budge even had a metaverse built around all of their kids tie in games to push them from one licensed IP to another. They also have a Gacha My Little Pony game for children, so that lets you know what's going on in that space.
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Jun 24, 2022 04:15
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