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Yeah its very specifically divination rather than illusion magic.
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Jul 27, 2022 17:56
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Raenir Salazar posted:The question is going to be if they're thorough enough to open a door they think Xykon's been through. if there's a discontinuity at the divination point, then it will still be there coming back from inside a just-explored door, right? e: the discontinuity, not xykon's aura immediately past it
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Jul 27, 2022 17:58
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Shugojin posted:if there's a discontinuity at the illusion point, then it will still be there coming back from inside a just-explored door, right? There are no illusions in play. The swapover has, in part, a permanent divination effect for displaying the other side of the false tunnel. This defeats True Seeing entirely, as it doesn't work on or through clairvoyance.
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Jul 27, 2022 18:00
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Something about Xykon in this strip makes me think that he's fully aware that Redcloak is tracking him for his own gain, it's just that he doesn't really care. I think it's the weird italicized "ha ha" that does it
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Jul 27, 2022 20:40
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my dad posted:Something about Xykon in this strip makes me think that he's fully aware that Redcloak is tracking him for his own gain, it's just that he doesn't really care. And then he turns and looks straight at his drawing and comments on how Redcloak just glossed over it.
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Jul 27, 2022 21:05
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my dad posted:Something about Xykon in this strip makes me think that he's fully aware that Redcloak is tracking him for his own gain, it's just that he doesn't really care. Oh yes. That's been clear for a while, at least to some extent.
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Jul 27, 2022 21:20
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my dad posted:Something about Xykon in this strip makes me think that he's fully aware that Redcloak is tracking him for his own gain, it's just that he doesn't really care. I think there's a good chance that Xykon has Redcloak completely figured out by now. Redcloak killing Tsukiko for investigating the ritual likely confirmed it for him. Xykon just seems way too chill since they've been at this gate, even for him. Like he knows this is all pointless and he's just waiting for the best/funniest moment to ruin everything for Redcloak.
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Jul 27, 2022 21:21
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It is very funny how everyone but Redcloak has Redcloak pretty well figured out.
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Jul 27, 2022 21:24
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Wittgen posted:It is very funny how everyone but Redcloak has Redcloak pretty well figured out. It really is. I don't think xykon knows about the fake phylactery though, that would not be ignored.
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Jul 27, 2022 21:32
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sebmojo posted:It really is. I don't think xykon knows about the fake phylactery though, that would not be ignored. Yeah. Xykon is fully on board with letting Redcloak plot the betrayal because he thinks he'll get away no more than mildly annoyed no matter what Redcloak does.
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Jul 27, 2022 21:38
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JuniperCake posted:Redcloak killing Tsukiko for investigating the ritual likely confirmed it for him. Coincidence or not, Tsukiko's death means Xykon still doesn't know what exactly the ritual does, and as such means he should remain suspicious of Redcloak's true motivations. Shugojin posted:Yeah. Xykon is fully on board with letting Redcloak plot the betrayal because he thinks he'll get away no more than mildly annoyed no matter what Redcloak does. With his "phylactery" safe on the Astral Plane -- which was stored immediately after finding out about Tsukiko dying and the arcane half of the ritual being handed back to him, and in-comic is relatively very recent (they went to Girard's Gate right after that, and then immediately teleported to Kraagor's) -- yeah, he figures he can just let it play out and see what Redcloak was plotting. If he finds out what the ritual actually does, or that the Snarl can unmake souls, this partnership between Xykon and Redcloak likely falls apart in the blink of an eye.
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Jul 27, 2022 22:02
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For those of you who've read Start of Darkness, don't forget MitD is enchanted to eat Redcloak if he ever betrays Xykon.
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Jul 27, 2022 22:19
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Xykon has absolutely seen through Redcloak, to a greater degree than Redcloak thinks he has. The thing we're waiting to find out is how much. I agree that the most likely answer is the same one as always, i.e., "basically all the way, he just doesn't care, although this time he's probably going to regret not caring a little bit more."
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Jul 27, 2022 22:47
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I don't think Xykon and Redcloak have really trusted each other in a long time, if they ever did. But at the same time, I don't think they realize just how much they should distrust each other. Redcloak's clearly a bit too confident that he's pulled the wool over Xykon's eyes, and Xykon seems quite confident that whatever betrayal Redcloak has in store can be handled with a well-timed Meteor Swarm or two.
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Jul 27, 2022 22:54
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Xykon understands Redcloak very well, but he's also underestimating him. Redcloak has outplayed him with the phylactery scheme. The problem is that part of Redcloaks pride problem is that he has convinced himself he has Xykon well in hand. He does not. It's a pretty intricate, pretty explosive situation. I think it's going to come to a head very soon here. Thinking on it, I like how Team Evil has had their group cohesion get much worse over the comic while the Order has come together much more strongly.
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Jul 27, 2022 22:57
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Rand Brittain posted:Xykon has absolutely seen through Redcloak, to a greater degree than Redcloak thinks he has. The thing we're waiting to find out is how much. There's a fundamental theme of people as tools vs people as people that I think is rewarding to consider with oots. The Bad Dad's all do the former, for e.g., as does redcloak.
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Jul 27, 2022 22:59
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I don't think Xykon is the brilliant schemer that this thread makes him out to be. He doesn't really need to be. He has some kind of baseline distrust to be ready to fight redcloak if he ever needs to, and that's all he really needs. He's not dumb, but he's also not very thoughtful in general. Redcloak is going to be doing all this plotting and planning all this time, but he's just gonna stumble a little at the end or try pulling the trigger early, and Xykon will be able to handle it without some complicated scheme, just a couple things he always had at the ready. And it'll probably help that he has every reason to prepare himself to fight some clerics.
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Jul 27, 2022 23:06
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Well xykons relationship with RC has always been transactional and he knows that RC needs him more than he needs RC. It just saves him a lot of effort and diverts heat so he tolerates obvious scheming, and besides isnt that normal amongst evil friends.
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Jul 27, 2022 23:10
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Xykon doesn't really do complex counter-schemes, but he does have an array of contingencies. Some of them Redcloak knows and has intercepted, like the Astral Fortress or inviting Tsukiko to study the ritual, some of them viewers know but Redcloak doesn't, like the SoD stuff, and presumably he has stuff up his sleeve that has yet to be introduced. He definitely feels confident he can weather Redcloak's sudden yet inevitable betrayal, and I think only time will tell if that's actually the case. I am starting to suspect that Xykon is absolutely right and the Order will end up having to save Redcloak from him, because I don't see an ending where Redcloak comes around without getting absolutely wrecked on every level, and I'm also not sure what an ending without Redcloak would look like.
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Jul 27, 2022 23:17
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The thing to remember about Xykon is that his entire thing was basically "roaming around the world dunking on high-level wizards who thought that being smarter than Xykon made them better than Xykon." There's a whole lot of dead people out there who got that way by underestimating his combination of brute force and cunning.
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Jul 27, 2022 23:18
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SlothfulCobra posted:I don't think Xykon is the brilliant schemer that this thread makes him out to be. He doesn't really need to be. He has some kind of baseline distrust to be ready to fight redcloak if he ever needs to, and that's all he really needs. He's not dumb, but he's also not very thoughtful in general. I don't think anyone has said he's a schemer, he's just a bit smarter and more perceptive then he can be bothered letting on. That said he made the MITD into a contingency like six books ago, that must count as a scheme? It's just a simple and fairly lazy one.
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Jul 27, 2022 23:19
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So
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Jul 27, 2022 23:36
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"Xykon is smarter than he looks."
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Jul 27, 2022 23:41
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Khizan posted:The thing to remember about Xykon is that his entire thing was basically "roaming around the world dunking on high-level wizards who thought that being smarter than Xykon made them better than Xykon." Xykon is mork, and everybody thinks he's gork
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Jul 27, 2022 23:43
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Xykon's greatest strength has always been his ability to debase himself, no matter what, if it means achieving his goals. He'll even resort to (SoD) beating someone to death with a blunt object over using his magic if he has to. Lich has no scruples at all, and that isn't an alignment observation.
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Jul 27, 2022 23:44
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SlothfulCobra posted:I don't think Xykon is the brilliant schemer that this thread makes him out to be. He doesn't really need to be. He has some kind of baseline distrust to be ready to fight redcloak if he ever needs to, and that's all he really needs. He's not dumb, but he's also not very thoughtful in general. He's not that much of a schemer but Start of Darkness shows that he has a sense for and plans about betrayal beyond "vaguely distrusting his allies". Taciturn Tactician fucked around with this message at 01:19 on Jul 28, 2022 |
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Jul 27, 2022 23:51
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Xykon is straightforward in a way that throws everyone off because he is powerful and clever enough to be so and most importantly he has literally zero doubt in himself. He 'schemes' insomuch as he has backup plans but so many of his backup plans are brute force or raw violence. He can outmatch people stronger than him because he just does the straightforward thing and isn't bothered by things like 'overarching goals' or 'what isn't funny at the moment.' He's cruel, shameless, and utterly unafraid of pretty much everything. Him almost losing his phylactery is the one time in the main comic we've really seen him shaken And in the prequel stories it is the unexpected consequences of Lichhood which make him freak the gently caress out because that specific pleasure is one of the few things he really cares about. It's really hard to beat someone who is strong enough to murder pretty much anyone in the world 1-on-1 and who doesn't give a poo poo what anyone thinks or does because you can't really exploit his weaknesses. Redcloak is absurdly powerful but so full of flaws it's a miracle he doesn't collapse at any given time, Xykon's biggest flaw is underestimating someone who bores him and 90% of the time that is solved by him killing them.
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Jul 28, 2022 00:57
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I personally think xylon's biggest flaw is probably that he makes enemies of everyone he meets and he's just lucky only two of them have successfully ended his life. You could reasonably say that redcloak's the closest thing he's ever had to a friend, even accounting for the fact that redcloak's shamelessly using him and plotting ways to kill him.
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Jul 28, 2022 01:36
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hey Tsukiko liked him
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Jul 28, 2022 01:46
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ikanreed posted:I personally think xylon's biggest flaw is probably that he makes enemies of everyone he meets and he's just lucky only two of them have successfully ended his life. I've been thinking something like this too, Redcloak is probably the only person Xykon is willing to tolerate even attempting to tell him what to do like in this strip. Although I imagine that's at least partly (a) too lazy to argue and if it does help move things along sure he'll humour him. (b) It's fun seeing if this blows up in Redcloak's face so he can do the kermit meme while chuckling.
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Jul 28, 2022 02:04
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all those fun moments where Redcloak forges a narrowly plausible excuse to keep fooling Xykon would be undermined if Xykon saw through them rather, it would seem more in-character for Xykon to never really trust anyone anyway. Xykon believes in hard power sustained at any price, not calculations of other people's motives; any inevitable betrayal wouldn't change much
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Jul 28, 2022 06:28
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Hey remind me, what did redcloak do with the real phylactery?
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Jul 28, 2022 11:20
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He put it in his pocket, and appears to have gone back to wearing it around his neck. If that's not the phylactery and he just replaced his backup holy symbol with a new one that looks exactly like the original, we don't know where the phylactery is.
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Jul 28, 2022 11:30
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It's around his neck. He shapechanged it, iirc. He's not going to let Xykon's phylactery out of arm's reach in case he needs to hold it hostage.
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Jul 28, 2022 14:20
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ikanreed posted:I personally think xylon's biggest flaw is probably that he makes enemies of everyone he meets and he's just lucky only two of them have successfully ended his life. I don't think Xykon has ever had a friend in his life or unlife. Redcloak HAD friends, but they were all either murdered by Paladins or sacrificed to pursue The Plan. Redcloak's relationship with Xykon started as employer-hireling, but then he became an underlying after Xykon became a lich and decided, like any proper chaotic evil being, that since he was stronger that meant he should be in charge. Compare that to Tarquin's crew, where some of them at least seemed to enjoy each other's company to some extent.
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Jul 28, 2022 14:25
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Taciturn Tactician posted:He's not that much of a schemer but Start of Darkness shows that he has a sense for and plans about betrayal beyond "vaguely distrusting his allies". His general plan is being aware of his own (strategic, anyway) weaknesses and letting people either attack him or not. if they attack him, he responds with full force. if they don't, well, he continues to boss them around and maybe kills them anyway for other reasons. He stayed in the Evil game for so long by simply responding to things with overwhelming force and using whatever advantages he can get because he simply doesn't care what he has to do as long as he avoids the Big Fire Below
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Jul 28, 2022 14:33
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Cup Runneth Over posted:It's around his neck. He shapechanged it, iirc. He's not going to let Xykon's phylactery out of arm's reach in case he needs to hold it hostage. This seems like an incredibly bad idea that's absolutely going to backfire hilariously, just like all his other schemes
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Jul 28, 2022 18:22
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McCloud posted:This seems like an incredibly bad idea that's absolutely going to backfire hilariously, just like all his other schemes I dunno, if he hides it somewhere (a) if he needs it to threaten Xykon he can't get it quickly. (b) increases the risk someone stumbles on it and take it out from under him. Keeping it near him has risks but also advantages.
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Jul 28, 2022 18:57
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McCloud posted:This seems like an incredibly bad idea that's absolutely going to backfire hilariously, just like all his other schemes It's a bad idea if you care about Xykon's phylactery falling into the wrong hands.
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Jul 28, 2022 19:03
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Anyone got a go-to example page to send to people? I want to recommend OOTS to friends but it doesn't sell itself well just looking at the first couple of strips. Might have to flick through my printed books (good thing I have no other plans this evening) to find something that looks epic and exciting but without spoilers.
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Jul 30, 2022 19:57
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