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Bismack Billabongo posted:This episode is so very very good. Roger is so sweet in the bar scene. Jerusalem posted:Season 1, Episode 1 - Smoke Gets in Your Eyes Jerusalem posted:Season 5, Episode 6 - Far Away Places Jerusalem posted:Season 7, Episode 11 - Time & Life
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Aug 8, 2022 23:53
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The Trudy gasp right before the punch was pure 100% Annie Edison leaking out
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Aug 8, 2022 23:55
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other misc thoughts: - I think Pete going along with Don in the first scene has more to do with his desire to torture Pete than with any particular faith in Don's ideas. he probably wasn't concerned at all in the first place, he just took pleasure in watching Pete squirm - Lou literally making an anime is  . definitely puts him in the top tier of mad men villains- Peggy's scene where she asserts that "a woman should be able to move on just like a man does" hits way different in a post roe v. wade world
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Aug 9, 2022 00:10
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fucker, i was putting together screenshots of these
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Aug 9, 2022 00:50
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THE KING ORDERED IT is such ridiculous scene but also completely in character. Just a perfect little vignette.
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Aug 9, 2022 03:18
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Sorry Pete, but we decided that Superior Orders are no excuse.
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Aug 9, 2022 03:21
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This is a showcase episode for Meredith, all of her lines are delightful
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Aug 9, 2022 03:48
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i do love the move from "it's just some stupid story" like pete barely comprehends what's being referenced and then immediately revealing he knows intimate details
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Aug 9, 2022 03:54
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I love THE KING ORDERED IT line so much. Because not only is it ridiculous, not only it Pete 1000% on board with the story, BUT this is the first time Pete's last name meant something to the person he was talking to. The whole show, Pete has been told that being a Campbell is important and should open doors for him. And when we first meet his father he says "we gave you your name." as if that is everything. But everytime something good happened because of Pete's family it was actually his mother's maiden name that opened doors (the apartment was excited about having a dykemen in the building and Cooper was concerned about what Pete's mom would say). The first time ANYONE cares about the name Campbell, it's this guy who associates the name with betrayal of trust and shady dealings. It's is just *chef's kiss* perfect! It's the best punchline to everything Pete is.
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Aug 9, 2022 04:41
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KellHound posted:I love THE KING ORDERED IT line so much. My favorite part is that it's real. It's a reference to the Massacre of Glencoe where government forces, led by a Campbell, fell upon the MacDonald clan as they camped in Glencoe...killing 30 people. The reason was the clan had not yet sworn fealty to the new king, but other clans also hadn't and weren't attacked. Of course Pete's ancestors attacked a bunch of sleeping civilians to appease the king. Makes total sense.
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Aug 9, 2022 05:25
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Sounds like a thing Pete would do.
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Aug 9, 2022 05:51
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THE KING ORDERED IT! my fiance watched this episode live with me when it aired, and when they were plotting for SC-West, she muttered "here we go again, of course", not badly but just kinda giggling at it, so when Hobart shut it the gently caress down it felt all the more shocking to me.
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Aug 9, 2022 07:12
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JethroMcB posted:Imagining a Gen Xer circa 1997 going to his first office job, an early dot-com bubble coding gig where he makes $80k a year and has a generous stock option plan. He is wearing a faux-distressed "Scout's Honor" ringer T that cost $29.99 at Gap. Getting into heated arguments with a co-worker whether the dub (with laugh track added in!) or the sub was better. Blood Nightmaster posted:Also not sure if this was intentional either but it's interesting that there's those four empty seats in front of them in that shot, like symbolic ghosts of the four other partners they "lost" over time (Lane, Gleason, Cooper and Cutler) Yeah, really dug the way the visual was presented - obviously the other side is empty because that's where Ferg and Hobart were, but it's a neat bit that there are four empty seats where four of the former Partners might have once sat (but not Harry, NEVER Harry!) kalel posted:"okay" Oh man, that's great. Roger finally being the one to tell Don that  JethroMcB posted:
GoutPatrol posted:The Trudy gasp right before the punch was pure 100% Annie Edison leaking out R. Guyovich posted:i do love the move from "it's just some stupid story" like pete barely comprehends what's being referenced and then immediately revealing he knows intimate details KellHound posted:I love THE KING ORDERED IT line so much. Seriously I adore the scene. It's a nice bit of comic relief what with everything else going on, but it certainly perfectly encapsulates what a hosed up little man with a hosed up family history Pete is. The reveal that he's intimately familiar with the feud after initially seeming to be as baffled as everybody else is just  , poor Trudy getting caught in the middle is magnificent.Devorum posted:My favorite part is that it's real. It's a reference to the Massacre of Glencoe where government forces, led by a Campbell, fell upon the MacDonald clan as they camped in Glencoe...killing 30 people. The reason was the clan had not yet sworn fealty to the new king, but other clans also hadn't and weren't attacked. Oh my God, it's actually real!?!  Lady Radia posted:my fiance watched this episode live with me when it aired, and when they were plotting for SC-West, she muttered "here we go again, of course", not badly but just kinda giggling at it, so when Hobart shut it the gently caress down it felt all the more shocking to me. Yeah, seeing them go back to the well for another last minute escape would have felt like recycling the plot and like the show was really running out of ideas at last. Having it then get immediately shut down and Hobart all but say,"Nope, here's the new status quo, this time you're doing as you're told" and that's that, there is no 11th hour reprieve, was perfectly placed, especially with the show so close to the end. Mameluke posted:This is a showcase episode for Meredith, all of her lines are delightful Agreed. She's used sparingly to great effect, I love that she's the first person we see who actually thinks about EVERYBODY else and how they're feeling, as opposed to themselves or people particularly close to them. It's not even like she's entirely selfless either, she's clearly relieved when Don says he will keep her on as his secretary at McCann, but that isn't enough to buy her off to help him keep this earthshaking news under wraps. Just a great episode, if Cooper were still alive he'd have died of horror to hear Lou proudly proclaim he was going to Japan.... to make a cartoon about a monkey!
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Aug 9, 2022 07:39
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There it is. The way the scene develops and lets the viewer sit in Trudy's place, slowly piecing together that Pete knows exactly what this man is talking about - and that, of course, Pete has a rationalization for something uncouth his family did centuries ago at the ready - is so well done.
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Jerusalem posted:Oh my God, it's actually real!?! yes!! (game of thrones spoilers in case they need to be spoilers) Its actually one of the main inspirations George RR Martin used when coming up with the idea for the Red Wedding
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Aug 9, 2022 12:31
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kalel posted:- Peggy's scene where she asserts that "a woman should be able to move on just like a man does" hits way different in a post roe v. wade world To be fair, Mad Men predates Roe v Wade.
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Aug 9, 2022 13:01
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KellHound posted:I love THE KING ORDERED IT line so much. I never put that together. That really is a phenomenal payoff to a joke you didn't realize you were being told.
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Aug 9, 2022 13:45
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Jerusalem posted:
Yeah, imagine knowing you have a nice corporate gig, guaranteed for the next four years, that you're going to be paid 3 million dollars for (22.9 million in today's dollars).  This picture made me laugh out loud.
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Aug 9, 2022 13:54
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Cat Army
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MightyJoe36 posted:Yeah, imagine knowing you have a nice corporate gig, guaranteed for the next four years, that you're going to be paid 3 million dollars for (22.9 million in today's dollars). That's kind of the point though, and something that Jim Hobart doesn't seem to grasp about them. He's not wrong to think the way he does, but it's clear that for most of the SC&P Partners the money is a secondary consideration at best. Roger - already extremely rich - is looking to leave some kind of legacy he has decided (with a hefty dose of sexist thinking) won't be possible without a son to carry on his name, to prove himself as a leader (and thus prove Cooper wrong) as well as to have the freedom to never have to answer to anybody else ever again. Don doesn't really know WHAT he wants, he jumps between utter devotion to advertising as a creative art and a desire to throw everything into his personal life, but he's also by now made more money than he'll ever need. Joan wants the money, of course, but she also knows the respect/fear/admiration she has earned at SC&P will not necessarily or even likely transfer with her to the boy's club that her experience with McCann suggests it will be. She puts it to Richard herself, she finally got the job she always wanted and now she's losing it. Ted was going to stay and be with McCann, and he admits he's happy to just let somebody else tell him what to do - a "sheep" like Pete insulted him, though he obviously sees being a follower for a change as more like freedom than captivity. Pete has finally built up money as well as a reputation, but he's also scared of finally stepping out of the Sterling Cooper "comfort zone" - he's taken plenty of big career risks before, but always generally surrounded by the same colleagues. Always a contradiction, he has both been eager for more prestige and certain everybody hates him and that he isn't wanted, and much like Don the continued successes financial and career-wise always seem to fail to fill the hole he feels inside himself. A nice corporate gig and plenty of money is absolutely the dream for many people. But they were all (mostly) legitimately happy where they were, feeling respected and liked and integral. They built something of their own, they succeeded against the odds on the back of hard work, talent and creative vision. What Hobart gives them is "advertising heaven" like he claimed, but it's still something being forced on them that makes them have to give up on what they wanted. My original point was that Hobart/McCann have that power, able to just ignore or stomp all over the spirit of the original agreement, with the full force of the legal system and corporate norms backing them up if anybody was to ever challenge the fact they didn't live up to their end of the bargain, which Hobart would argue he has, because he's brought them "home" to McCann, tearing them out of their own home in the process. The flip side for the Partners is that they signed the same agreement, but THEY have to stick to it or face the consequences, and no judge or lawyer is going to care that "it isn't fair", and in fact most would be bewildered that they're angry over getting what to most would be an incredible deal. There's more to life, and yes even advertising, than money and a prestigious spot at a big company. Obviously "boo hoo the rich people are getting richer" is an entirely justified take, but now should they be forced to be happy just because they're getting money thrown at them. There's more to life and their jobs than just that, or at least there should be. It's not just the Partners either, Ken hated the ethos at McCann, and Peggy was miserable when she was told it was where she HAD to go to actually build a proper career, and her decision to just go there after all isn't made with excitement or exhilaration, despite being in most respects (she won't be Copy Chief) a massive step-up from her current role. MightyJoe36 posted:This picture made me laugh out loud. I love it so much. Don (understandably!) didn't see it coming at all, and once it has, has absolutely no idea what he's supposed to do with this information 
Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 14:27 on Aug 9, 2022 |
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Aug 9, 2022 14:19
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it's funny this episode is supposed to be a little shocking or dark maybe, but there's so many loving hilarious bits
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Aug 9, 2022 19:33
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Jerusalem posted:There's more to life, and yes even advertising, than money and a prestigious spot at a big company. Obviously "boo hoo the rich people are getting richer" is an entirely justified take, but now should they be forced to be happy just because they're getting money thrown at them. There's more to life and their jobs than just that, or at least there should be. If "boo hoo rich people getting richer" is an empathy non-starter for someone, no loving way can they watch Mad Men. Beautiful, well-dressed people looking pensive in upscale modern spaces is a good 60% of the show. But also, by S7 I'd say the show makes a pretty compelling case for why this is a sad outcome. Sure, they're getting paid. A lot. But the absolute emptiness of that wealth feels pretty visceral. Most of these characters were *already* rich. More money will not buy them happiness. Jim Hobart dangling Nabisco or Buick does nothing to enrich their lives, certainly nothing that Jaguar or Peter Pan couldn't already do. The slow decay of the once-bright and energetic SCDP offices into Cutler's cold, empty server room, and now the claustrophobic corporate nightmare that Jim Hobart promises, is a pretty tragic downfall for all involved. I remember thinking that Jim Hobart emerged at this point in the series as an unexpectedly overt arch-villain. He's an almost Satanic figure, offering a Faustian bargain for these characters to give up any search for meaning or contentment and instead just stop struggling and take the money. In a weird way, his version of 70's corporate soullessness bridges pretty well into the themes of American Psycho, into the New York of the 80's: "but inside doesn't matter." "Greed is good."
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Aug 9, 2022 23:46
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I think a lot of the chatter around the "money don't buy happiness" here is a bit constrained, knowingly or not, because no one is saying anything about what most of us knows is about to happen. We're a little tainted by not just the vibe that maybe the Core Five aren't going to be happy at McCann, but that we know they're going to be definitely miserable because we've already seen the two food wide poop brown halls of McCann. Except, I contend, the new King of Wichita, Pete Campbell.
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Aug 10, 2022 03:25
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Jerusalem posted:Just a great episode, if Cooper were still alive he'd have died of horror to hear Lou proudly proclaim he was going to Japan.... to make a cartoon about a monkey! "if...you could only know my embarrassment"
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Aug 10, 2022 04:42
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Rewatching some earlier seasons and Peggy's family is such a dry run for Megan's family. Lots of weird "what ifs" there that were thankfully not taken. I always took the "boo hoo money" moment as the opposite. They've won (minus Joan). They get to be creative (the whole point of the experiment) and they get to have accounts leagues beyond what they could have ever dreamed. Like, Buick is nothing like Jaguar. Peter loving Pan is nothing on Nabisco. Coca-Cola? These are massive wins. The emptiness of these wins speaks to the emptiness of everything. Wealth included. Which is some real crocodile tears but I'll get threadbanned if I talk about those themes again.
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Aug 17, 2022 09:00
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Apologies for the lack of the next write-up, busy times in real life but I'll aim to have it done by this weekend.2nd Amendment posted:I always took the "boo hoo money" moment as the opposite. They've won (minus Joan). They get to be creative (the whole point of the experiment) and they get to have accounts leagues beyond what they could have ever dreamed. We'll see how things work out, but I certainly got the impression that creativity (or at least freedom and authority over how creativity is directed/managed) was understood to be a likely if not inevitable casualty of moving directly into McCann-Erickson. That's discounting the wider issue of their actual Agency ceasing to exist (and the fates of everybody else they employ being hugely up in the air now), but the show has made no bones in the past about McCann being absolutely NOT the type of place any of them ever wanted to work: Don rejected the offer back at Sterling Cooper, they fled McCann prior to the PPL sale, Don had zero interest in Hobart's offer when he was considering the seeming inevitability of losing SC&P, Ken openly told them how dreadful a place it was to work in comparison to SCDP etc. The Nabiscos, Coca-Colas, pharmaceuticals etc are giant accounts that everybody in advertising dreams of, but they're getting it in probably the most unsatisfying and unfulfilling way possible. Hobart offers it to them with warm and sincere congratulations, but you can tell once they're left alone in that conference room and later in the bar that they all know they SHOULD be happy, but they're very clearly not. Well, Ted's probably okay with it to be fair!
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Aug 17, 2022 11:23
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The victory tastes if ashes but that's more a function of their ego. McCann isn't the kind of place they'd like to work because it isn't creative but McCann is giving them these accounts specifically because they see the value in how they do things. How McCann culture will react to this shift in values is one thing but McCann seems earnest.
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Aug 17, 2022 15:53
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Plus, it has a way different feel when you have the knowledge that Don will shortly forge The Greatest Ad of All Time. Don's resistance is pointless, because he got exactly what he wanted out of the deal: a huge client, with a massive budget, to do whatever he wants to do with it.
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Aug 17, 2022 16:54
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2nd Amendment posted:The victory tastes if ashes but that's more a function of their ego. McCann isn't the kind of place they'd like to work because it isn't creative but McCann is giving them these accounts specifically because they see the value in how they do things. How McCann culture will react to this shift in values is one thing but McCann seems earnest. tell me you have never seen an episode of the show without telling me you have never seen an episode of the show. literally text from characters to other characters is "yea the idea that McCann is creatively unfulfilling is objectively true" and not in a way we're expected to cast doubt on, lmao Sash! posted:Plus, it has a way different feel when you have the knowledge that Don will shortly forge The Greatest Ad of All Time. Don's resistance is pointless, because he got exactly what he wanted out of the deal: a huge client, with a massive budget, to do whatever he wants to do with it. i dont know that he got what he wanted: happiness. but i like to think so 
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Aug 18, 2022 05:12
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Lady Radia posted:tell me you have never seen an episode of the show without telling me you have never seen an episode of the show. literally text from characters to other characters is "yea the idea that McCann is creatively unfulfilling is objectively true" and not in a way we're expected to cast doubt on, lmao I mean, they said that they were trialing them because they do things in a different way than they normally do and they wanted to see if it would work. They were convinced, hence giving them the accounts. McCann is saying they want to do things differently. The characters are right to be skeptical because a big boat like McCann saying they want "more creativity" is probably moving from 5%-15% when they've been running at 80%. We have no reason to think McCann is acting in bad faith here. They've been actively courting a known unstable actor like Don since S1. As Don's future hero would say, "Trust but verify".
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Aug 18, 2022 07:01
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2nd Amendment posted:We have no reason to think McCann is acting in bad faith here. They've been actively courting a known unstable actor like Don since S1. As Don's future hero would say, "Trust but verify". That's the thing, I fully believe McCann - or Hobart specifically - is acting in good faith, completely sincere and utterly honest in their belief that what they're doing is a wonderful thing that everybody will be happy with. Hobart says it himself, he can't believe HE is having to sell THEM on what a great opportunity he is giving them. The key difference is what the reality of the situation will be, and if McCann is stultifying or restrictive (I guess I'll find out when I watch the next episode) it won't be because they were actively lying, but because their idea of "advertising heaven" is going to be different to the SC&P Partners. Joan has obvious concerns given the fact Hobart didn't specifically single out a big client for her. Pete fears the unknown after an entire career in the one place coupled with Ken's own frequent criticisms of McCann. Roger is having to give up his authority and status to become just another (highly paid, incredibly wealthy) employee. Don knows that the Creative Freedom that he desires (except for when he has it, and promptly loses interest) is at real risk but that he no real options to control his own destiny anymore. Ted is... gonna be just fine! It's a fascinating thing, because Hobart as a "villain" is actually just a highly respected guy in the advertising world paying them a shitload of money and giving them dream accounts. He SHOULD be their Fairy Godmother, yet somehow instead he comes across like the Big Bad Wolf.
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Aug 18, 2022 07:47
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Right! And I think the answer is, "they are being giant babies about this." Except for Joan who is screwed. But the other characters don't care about that (again).
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Aug 18, 2022 08:09
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If all you (and by you, I mean characters in the show) care about is money and prestige, then yes, being upset at getting an account like Coca Cola at an Agency like McCann would be being a giant baby. But Don and the others have demonstrated multiple times that money and prestige has failed to bring them the happiness they expected it might. There is a hollowness to Don in particular that traditional notions of success simply doesn't fill, and he has a mindset (which itself is reflected in the creative ethos of SCDP/SC&P) that has continually shown that the way the big agencies handle themselves doesn't appeal to him. He's hit the capitalism trap of realizing that at a certain point, making more money and getting bigger clients doesn't equal bigger thrills or satisfaction , it's just more of the same old poo poo and you find yourself asking,"Is this it? Is this ALL there is?" It's demonstrated in The Forecast, when he realizes he doesn't really know WHAT he wants from the future, and he's left unsatisfied by the standard answers others offer him: "What next? What then? Is that it?" etc. Just going bigger, more money, bigger clients etc doesn't appeal, but it's about all a place like McCann can offer. There's nothing wrong with that, and plenty of people in advertising who would be justifiably thrilled at the chance. But that doesn't mean you HAVE to like it or want it, and Don - and to different extents Roger and Pete too - doesn't. Joan's a different case. She worked her way up to the top, gained both position and authority but also respect... and she knows that the chances of maintaining that are slim at best, and though she's more than competent enough to build herself back up to that position.... it's an exhausting thought to have to do it all over again after pushing that loving boulder uphill all those years.
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Aug 18, 2022 10:39
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If they were going to McCannize them, sure. But McCann has specifically said that isn't what they want to do. Having been through several acquisitions myself I can give a hearty LOL to that but that's a very post 1980s mindset. The characters have neither the personal experience nor the societal cynicism/metis for that worldview.
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Aug 18, 2022 17:16
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Lady Radia posted:
I like to think that, at a minimum, he made peace with his own life. I also think that not just Don, but Roger as well, failed the lesson that Bert tried to teach. He didn't just oscillate between "work" and "ruinous personal life." He dabbled in politics, supported the arts, did all the stuff that having an endless supply of money allows. Plus he had his cows. He enjoyed the fruits of his life's work. The others never figured out that at some point you have to enjoy wealth. When they had voids in their life, they tried to fill it with more work and substance abuse. Clearly, that was not the right choice for either of them. poo poo, Cutler figured it out. He's probably sleeping on a yacht off St Maarten when the rest of these knuckleheads are stuck at McCann being grumpy.
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Aug 18, 2022 20:10
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2nd Amendment posted:If they were going to McCannize them, sure. But McCann has specifically said that isn't what they want to do. Having been through several acquisitions myself I can give a hearty LOL to that but that's a very post 1980s mindset. The characters have neither the personal experience nor the societal cynicism/metis for that worldview. McCann also specifically said they were going to leave SCP independent. It's made painfully clear that McCann will say whatever they want and then do whatever they feel is best without hesitation or input from the people affected, and without regard for anything they said previously. I'm not sure how much clearer they could make it that McCann is the death of independence and creativity without literally dressing the characters like grim reapers and having them write the theme on a board in a meeting.
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Aug 18, 2022 23:48
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2nd Amendment posted:If they were going to McCannize them, sure. But McCann has specifically said that isn't what they want to do. Having been through several acquisitions myself I can give a hearty LOL to that but that's a very post 1980s mindset. The characters have neither the personal experience nor the societal cynicism/metis for that worldview. trying to read between the lines here, it sounds like you think the writers are contorting the narrative in order to speak through the characters, beyond the point that your disbelief can be suspended to which I reply: shut up nerd
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Aug 19, 2022 00:01
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McCann was always very transparent in their dealings. I never saw them as being liars or tricksters or anything. Their entire goal was hiring Don, to the obsessive point of consuming entire companies to get him. Hobart has spent a decade doing that. I'm not sure why anyone thought that SCP the Subsidiary was ever a good idea. The fiction was obvious to any client. The "conflict refuge" doesn't make any sense. It served McCann no real benefit. Yes, they make the money either way, but with redundant overhead and the outstanding issue that it all falls apart the second a client questions it. Plus, SCP had already openly acted as just another cog and not a separate entity by trying to use McCann's leverage to benefit Topaz.
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Aug 19, 2022 00:06
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The only way it makes sense is for the different flavors of advertising they bring to the table. If McCann is old reliable and SCDP is some avant garde bullshit it might make sense to keep them somewhat separate. Like Oberto and Pacific Gold Jerky
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Aug 19, 2022 00:10
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Jerusalem posted:He's hit the capitalism trap of realizing that at a certain point, making more money and getting bigger clients doesn't equal bigger thrills or satisfaction , it's just more of the same old poo poo and you find yourself asking,"Is this it? Is this ALL there is?" Appropriately, the song that plays at the beginning of S7E8 Severance (just after Don gets his old job back after the McCann purchase) is Peggy Lee's "Is that all there is?" And its usage is obvious: Don is back in his old position, on top of the world, a handsome and important executive auditioning nearly-nude young women in fur coats. His opulent, privileged life is perhaps even more grand than it was before. This is what he fought so hard to get back. But is that all there is? McCann isn't doing anything shady, and I agree that Jim Hobart is probably acting in good faith. He just doesn't comprehend the existential dilemma within Don or anyone else at SC&P. "You're getting more! Bigger, better! Why wouldn't you want that?!" As if more material wealth or corporate power is the only metric of contentment. But that's the whole point of this show we've been watching for 7 seasons: it isn't. Don's professional victories, like the products he advertises, are a "glittering lure." But none of that will actually make him happy.
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Aug 19, 2022 01:31
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But it's also more than that because the experiment worked! They were convinced of their way of doing things, that there is a place for it and it isn't something they have been able to do! They clearly want them to keep doing what they are doing. Now there is a "but" and how big of a "but" that is remains an open question. The big baby breakdown is: Joan: Seriously screwed, legit reasons Pete: Fear because he hasn't worked anywhere else, put on some big boy pants ya baby Don: Got the world handed him. He doesn't like the way McCann does things but he "won". Don should be elated, he dominated McCann worse than that comedian's wife. Ted: Checked out 2nd Amendment fucked around with this message at 01:59 on Aug 19, 2022 |
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Aug 19, 2022 01:54
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I don’t think Cooper feels much of anything at all
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Aug 19, 2022 01:57
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