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I appreciate Intel sticking to its strategy of throwing more power at the problem.
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Sep 8, 2022 11:59
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What kind of turbo power limits do the 65W SKUs have? Does this imply that a 65W 13700 non-K is going to happily suck down 200W if the motherboard lets it?
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Sep 8, 2022 14:08
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The 12700 already has this: The 13700 will probably have an even higher delta between TDP and max boost power.
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Sep 8, 2022 14:28
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Twerk from Home posted:What kind of turbo power limits do the 65W SKUs have? Does this imply that a 65W 13700 non-K is going to happily suck down 200W if the motherboard lets it? If the motherboard lets it, yes. I /believe/ some vendors enforce long duration power limits by default for non k skus so at least maybe you have to do it on purpose? I guess some don't, it's a total poo poo show. Power figures aren't that surprising, the 13700k appears to basically be a 12900k (8+8, 3.4 base / 5.3 max), so not surprising to see it needs similar power to maintain really high clocks. Wish Intel would reverse course and make their board partners enforce power limits by default for all skus. If you're gonna pull this kind of power it should be a conscious decision. But then I guess you don't get big cinebench number in reviews so this is just the world we live in now.
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Sep 8, 2022 14:30
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:
Going to be a lot of Dells and HPs that will never be able to hit the speeds they advertise
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Sep 8, 2022 15:54
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:The 12700 already has this: Thanks, I saw that even the 35W TDP 12700T goes up to 99W with turbo power, which is wild for the kinds of micro systems it goes into. Has anybody ever dug into if the -T CPUs actually do higher turbo clocks at a given power target, or if you limit any Intel CPU to 35W will it perform identically to a -T CPU?
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Sep 8, 2022 16:12
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:It's speculated in this article that the 13400 could just be a rebadged Alder Lake CPU, and it honestly looks that way. It looks like a 12600K in disguise. Same cache, core config, and stock memory support, but 300 mhz slower max boost clock. But even if it's not, it still seems much slower than the rest of the raptor lake offerings, which would be disappointing since the 12400 was such a good sub-$200 CPU. Dr. Video Games 0031, please claim your prize https://twitter.com/VideoCardz/status/1568200263013437440
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Sep 9, 2022 12:58
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gradenko_2000 posted:Dr. Video Games 0031, please claim your prize Laughs in AMD.
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Sep 9, 2022 15:21
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I know this is grand heresy in the Intel thread, but those new AMD CPUs look pretty good to me. And it appears my intel option comes with efficiency cores and lacks the ultra-wide AVX instructions to boot? I've been on the Intel train since I moved off my Opterons, but its starting to look like its back to AMD land if I want to get a bunch of cores with full features.
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Sep 9, 2022 15:33
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I wasn't able to figure out by a quick Google if Alder Lake L3 is fully inclusive or a victim cache. The last Intel architecture that I'm aware of is Skylake, which definitely had inclusive L3. Raptor Lake seems to have a ton of L2 compared to the L3, I'm counting 2MB per big core and 512k per small core, for 24MB of total L2 on a 13700K? That's an insane amount of L2 cache, and they must have made the L3 cache a victim cache at some point or the L3 seems almost obsolete.
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Sep 9, 2022 15:35
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FunOne posted:I know this is grand heresy in the Intel thread, but those new AMD CPUs look pretty good to me. And it appears my intel option comes with efficiency cores and lacks the ultra-wide AVX instructions to boot? Since Ryzen 2 (the 3<xxx> series), AMD has been a very viable alternative for just about any kind of purpose. Intel recently took back the performance crown, but if power efficiency is at all a priority for you, Ryzen CPUs are a more appropriate choice.
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Sep 9, 2022 15:46
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Kibner posted:Since Zen 2 (the Ryzen 3<xxx> series) FTFY. Not to be pendantic, but because the Zen (core name) / Ryzen (CPU product name) thing has gotten increasingly confusing as time has gone on. Especially now that they aren't guaranteed to move upward in lockstep in the mobile and embedded product lines.
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Sep 9, 2022 16:51
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And, only semi-facetiously, only stands to get more confusing from here on out.
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Sep 9, 2022 16:52
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mdxi posted:FTFY. Not to be pendantic, but because the Zen (core name) / Ryzen (CPU product name) thing has gotten increasingly confusing as time has gone on. Especially now that they aren't guaranteed to move upward in lockstep in the mobile and embedded product lines. Not my best morning because I have been making these kinds of typos/mis-naming multiple times today. And, yeah, it is confusing.
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Sep 9, 2022 16:54
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gradenko_2000 posted:Dr. Video Games 0031, please claim your prize Not the first time Intel has done this dogshit and it sucks! If I’m gonna yell at AMD for this in the other thread (and in GPUs in the past) then I’ll absolutely yell at Intel for this trash too. Rebadging stinks!
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Sep 9, 2022 17:03
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hobbesmaster posted:Laughs in AMD. I mean, AMD is also servicing the low end with previous generation parts. They just didn't bother rebranding stuff 
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Sep 9, 2022 18:29
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Cygni posted:Not the first time Intel has done this dogshit and it sucks! If I’m gonna yell at AMD for this in the other thread (and in GPUs in the past) then I’ll absolutely yell at Intel for this trash too. Rebadging stinks! I guess I'm the only person who thinks this is fine, assuming sku pricing stays the same. You're getting more cores at the each price point. Except that 13100. Do a 6+0 chip at ~$130 you cowards.
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Sep 9, 2022 19:50
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VorpalFish posted:I guess I'm the only person who thinks this is fine, assuming sku pricing stays the same. You're getting more cores at the each price point. Except that 13100. Intel did say they'd be raising prices (I think that includes consumer grade stuff), so probably not for a while.
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Sep 9, 2022 21:41
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VorpalFish posted:I guess I'm the only person who thinks this is fine, assuming sku pricing stays the same. You're getting more cores at the each price point.
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Sep 9, 2022 21:55
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Again I think going to 6+4 for the same money that used to buy 6+0 is a pretty solid uplift for a single gen. You lose out on 1C uplift which is rumored at about 10%, but it seems fine. Obviously you aren't gonna upgrade from alder to raptor lake probably but that rarely makes sense. If they raise prices though, yeah, poo poo sucks. And the 13100 is nonsense.
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Sep 9, 2022 22:41
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Especially since at least some of that 1C uplift is supposedly coming from faster ddr5 5600 support, and how many of the budget skus are gonna be running that anyways?
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Sep 9, 2022 22:46
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When Intel moved to Rocket Lake, the "new" i3 was still called a 10105 and not prefixed with 11, so the rebadging here goes a step further
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Sep 9, 2022 22:50
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the higher-end SKUs are all getting more efficiency cores too but with what seems like a much bigger relative performance boost on top of that. the 12600K is not a huge upgrade over the 12400 as-is, and the 13400 seems to just be what the 12600 non-K would have logically been instead of the weirdly-unrelated-to-the-12600K thing it actually was. i guess Intel feels they don't have to try because AMD isn't going to have anything much new at the lower-end in the near future either
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Sep 9, 2022 23:16
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VorpalFish posted:I guess I'm the only person who thinks this is fine, assuming sku pricing stays the same. You're getting more cores at the each price point. Except that 13100. The problem is less the price, and more that it actively deceives the vast majority of consumers who equate Intels made up “generations” with architectures, and also big number more betterer. That’s especially the case for the more mainstream skus. I understand that I might be in the minority in getting mad about this, but the Big 3 keep doing it and I really think they should be called out on it each time. One, to keep less turbo dork folks savvy to the foolery, but also two, to make it less acceptable in the “community” for them to play the marketing games. GN has proven that community pressure can work to some extent.
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Sep 10, 2022 05:35
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Cygni posted:The problem is less the price, and more that it actively deceives the vast majority of consumers who equate Intels made up “generations” with architectures, and also big number more betterer. That’s especially the case for the more mainstream skus. The vast majority of consumers probably don't know what an architecture even is, so I'd dispute that it's all that misleading. You kind of have to be a turbo dork to even be calling it alder lake vs raptor lake. What really matters is that the next gen sku is better that the previous gen of the same name, assuming naming structure stays the same, and that value improves over time. A consumer assuming that the 13400 is better than the 12400 would be correct, even if the 13400 is actually a multiplier locked 12600k. If you want more granular details like how much better, and in what ways, you have to look at specific benchmarks. No way around that until people finally accept my proposal to make all desktop model names equal to their cinebench score at 100w.
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Sep 10, 2022 16:34
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For whatever reason, every cheapo corporate Dell I've seen comes with the Core i5-X500 line, and the move from a 6+0 12500 to a 6+8 13500 is enormous for anything that scales with more threads. I'm not bothered by rebrands at all. This looks like a much bigger upgrade than 6th vs 7th gen, or 8th vs 9th.
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Sep 10, 2022 16:41
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I should clarify that the saving grace here is that they're going from 6+0 to 6+4. If it was just a couple hundred mhz of clock speed I'd probably be annoyed too. And honestly, I don't even care about the "12400" vs the "13400," what I really care about is that $200 used to buy 6+0 and now buys 6+4, whatever it's called. Though if they end up raising prices it's all ruined, so gently caress em.
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Sep 10, 2022 16:51
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Business productivity systems are all about more cores, more cores, more cores. +4 E cores is a big deal.
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Sep 10, 2022 16:57
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Potato Salad posted:Business productivity systems are all about more cores, more cores, more cores. +4 E cores is a big deal. Even your average desktop running Excel or whatever software reception needs? Not to go back to the “a 2600K is still viable today” dead horse but seems like we hit the optimal of a ~35-45W TDP quad core CPU to drive most things a few generations ago. I skipped from Sandy Bridge to Zen 2, but building a few work machines along the way, seems like around Kaby Lake or so was a sweet spot. I thought about going Alder Lake for my recent USFF purchase but 1) I don’t want Windows 11 and 2) still not convinced SW maturity is there to intelligently use the E cores…
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Sep 10, 2022 17:04
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There is something to be said for the real improvement for the general user to be actually having decent SSDs on computers, but the biggest difference from a sandy bridge to something more recent for a business user is going to be better encoding support for all their video calls.
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Sep 10, 2022 17:09
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hobbesmaster posted:There is something to be said for the real improvement for the general user to be actually having decent SSDs on computers, but the biggest difference from a sandy bridge to something more recent for a business user is going to be better encoding support for all their video calls. Oh, yeah, fair point — whatever the most recent iGPU generation with hardware H.264/H.265, 16 GB RAM, NVMe and that’s a solid machine for basically “everything”. Or, you know, a M1… 
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Sep 10, 2022 17:17
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Potato Salad posted:Business productivity systems are all about more cores, more cores, more cores. +4 E cores is a big deal. Eh... a lot of "business productivity systems" are running MS Office apps, like movax said, that probably aren't really stressing out the existing options anyway, and the older legacy applications built for 20+ year old versions of Windows probably can't take advantage of them anyway (I assume?)
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Sep 10, 2022 18:04
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movax posted:Even your average desktop running Excel or whatever software reception needs? It reallly helps with whole the Zoom/Teams experience, on top of all the bloat you find on corporate images.
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Sep 10, 2022 18:28
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movax posted:Even your average desktop running Excel or whatever software reception needs? Excel, not so much. Most business now run 6 or more security products, though, and kicking them off onto efficiency cores really helps with perceived responsiveness of the system, even if it isn’t any faster overall. Not a comment on the effectiveness of 6+ different security products at once.
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Sep 10, 2022 21:26
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I remember like a decade ago my company rolled out some crap software whole disk encryption to all laptops regardless of whether the laptop was crap or not (and they’d go 4+ years between refreshes). When people complained just how much the performance went to poo poo the IT PR response was how they just rolled out SSDs into the fleet so with the performance hit your laptop still performs as well as it did before the SSDs so it’s not that bad
WhyteRyce fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Sep 10, 2022 |
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Sep 10, 2022 22:16
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Trolling Thunder posted:It reallly helps with whole the Zoom/Teams experience, on top of all the bloat you find on corporate images. That's a really good point, though for some reason, Webex seems to cause my work machine more issues than Teams or Zoom did/does.
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Sep 10, 2022 22:25
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WhyteRyce posted:I remember like a decade ago my company rolled out some crap software whole disk encryption to all laptops regardless of whether the laptop was crap or not (and they’d go 4+ years between refreshes). When people complained just how much the performance went to poo poo the IT PR response was how they just rolled out SSDs into the fleet so with the performance hit your laptop still performs as well as it did before the SSDs so it’s not that bad The lesson learned: roll out both at the same time so nobody is able to get used to the faster SSD speeds?
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Sep 10, 2022 22:31
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An SSD and more cores are very useful due to all the antivirus and monitoring software they put on corporate machines. I've seen workstations with an i5-6500T choke on such loads even if the actual work is not more than Excel, an MS Teams meeting, and some audio playback.
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Sep 10, 2022 23:17
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At one point opening Outlook would take drat near 5 minutes before it would respond because McAfee was going to go in and scan every drat thing it could
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Sep 10, 2022 23:38
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movax posted:
You can use win 10 with alder, but you may have to manually janitor some apps with process lasso. For eg I needed to set 7zip to use only the p cores in my 12600k because it was exclusively using the e cores. But i haven't had to do it often and it's kind of a set it once thing.
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Sep 11, 2022 00:56
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