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day-gas posted:slavery was "necessary", dude what Wading in here with a hazmat suit. Please don't murder me too hard, this is just some ramblings about history and labor I've observed. Throughout history, in every single culture, there's always been the "exploitable labor" class, people who were smack dab at the bottom of the totem pole, and given all the poo poo jobs to do for little pay. Ever since the first caveman tribe beat up another one and had the losers cleaning the latrines, all the way to the modern day migrant farm worker, every society has their exploitable labor class. Now, it's historically taken a hundred and one forms. Migrant workers. Serfs, bonded to the land. Chattle slaves, worked like property. Normal slaves, usually the losers of the latest war. Indentured servants, the low men on the communist totem pole, caste systems, wage "slaves", the list is endless. But no matter the society, it doesn't take much to find the exploited class. Naturally, the rest of the culture rests upon the work of this lower exploited class. I've used American migrant workers a few times now. If they all vanished overnight, America would likely encounter a significant food crises. If enough labor was able to be reshuffled to save all the harvests, food prices would merely skyrocket, instead of a famine. Most people just ignore how corn and strawberries can be so drat cheap, and don't like hearing that it's based off of exploited labor, the same people so many Americans condemn in the same breath as being 'lazy job stealers'. Kicking the lowest class while they're down is a time-honored tradition across cultures. slavery itself wasn't 'necessary', but the bulk of the time the "slaves", in the thousands of different ways it came about (On a wild tangent - I'm glad in a way that there's only one word to describe 'slave', as opposed to the seven or eight different types of words that could be appropriate if it was a larger piece of the English language), formed the backbone of the country's labor. The institution isn't necessary as a whole for civilizations to thrive, but it was "necessary" for most civilizations that had slaves, to continue having slaves. Otherwise, if they all vanished one day? Mass starvation, riots, etc. etc. Hell, look at Rome. Some of the tamest versions of slavery around (Slaves got nominally paid - ignoring how corrupt it was in practice - and would usually go home to their own family at the end of the day, along with enjoying other benefits). Yet, the empire was nearly brought to its knees repeatedly from slave rebellions, and those weren't exactly full empire-spanning rebellions! It was "Necessary" for Rome to use slaves to continue as a civilization. They just didn't have the infrastructure or culture in place to have a different options. In an entirely different sense of the word "Necessary" though, Rome didn't *need* to use slaves. In theory, they could have tried to abolish the practice, and tried... something else. Some other method of having a lower class citizen do their dirty work. Who? And why? Gotta be a carrot or a stick. I keep ending up at "financially incentivize people to become the lower class", ala migrant workers and wage slaves, who have no choice but to work or starve, or "make your former enemy do it at the tip of a spear" The last note I'll have on slavery - people love screaming bloody murder about how terrible it was, but mention serfs or indentured servants, and there's only a fraction of the kneejerk on the topic, in spite of the practice being, historically, on average, worse. Pay people what they're worth, and what their work is worth.
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Sep 7, 2022 04:19
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if only someone had framed some kind of view of historical socioeconomics in such a way as to explain why this power dynamic reoccurs and continues to exist into the modern day
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Sep 7, 2022 04:25
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Selkie Myth posted:Wading in here with a hazmat suit. Please don't murder me too hard, this is just some ramblings about history and labor I've observed. Oh yeah I totally get you, and I understand your argument here - Rome built a society on slavery and I've read a lot about it. This dude would take any argument that Rome didn't literally have to have slavery to exist as wrong because he's a loving moron. Using the word "necessary" and then talkin bout IQ is like "it's necessary become some are more equal than others" kinda poo poo. Actually typing this out he absolutely thinks eugenics is a great idea, no chance he doesn't. Not that you didn't know all that but you're venting and I'm venting here. Thinking back on his writing today is revealing a lot of red flags I barreled past and ugh. On a happier note the Jackal Among Snakes guy has hit full patreon funding and seems to be doing well mentally while keeping his writing very sharp. Watching BoC and OVDT experience burnout has been pretty sobering so it's nice to see an author who appears to be dealing with the tempo they set.
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Sep 7, 2022 04:47
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Selkie Myth posted:In theory, they could have tried to abolish the practice, and tried... something else. Some other method of having a lower class citizen do their dirty work. they did once the borders stopped expanding and conquest dried up as a source of slaves. the relatively tame legal structures and social norms around slavery that you mentioned resulted in it essentially withering on the vine as slaves were freed faster than new slaves entered the economy. it wasn't any great moral victory or enlightened policy, slavery just stopped functioning as an institution because of how roman slavery was structured both legally and culturally. of course this process essentially overlaps directly with the institution of the first legal systems that would evolve over centuries into serfdom so it's not all positive, but there was a span of about 100 years in there where very few people were legally compelled to provide extremely cheap labor also fwiw the most brutal era of rome and also the one with all of the slave rebellions was the republic, not the empire. i don't believe slave rebellions ever significantly impacted the empire. Jazerus fucked around with this message at 06:28 on Sep 7, 2022 |
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Sep 7, 2022 06:20
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Seconding Jack Among Snakes. It's a very bingable and inoffensive story with consistent updates. Any other long running fantasy serials with minor or no litrpg elements? Doesn't have to be a work of art as long as it is enjoyable.
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Sep 7, 2022 07:09
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Um, let us not underplay Roman slavery. A latifundia is just another word for a plantation and being a slave mine was a literal death sentence. On other hand a free person today and a free person in ancient times are pretty different from view of rights and recognitions they have.
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Sep 7, 2022 12:44
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yeah they figured out it's cheaper and more productive to not micromanage the slave caste and let them pick where to work at.
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Sep 7, 2022 12:50
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Jazerus posted:they did once the borders stopped expanding and conquest dried up as a source of slaves. the relatively tame legal structures and social norms around slavery that you mentioned resulted in it essentially withering on the vine as slaves were freed faster than new slaves entered the economy. it wasn't any great moral victory or enlightened policy, slavery just stopped functioning as an institution because of how roman slavery was structured both legally and culturally. of course this process essentially overlaps directly with the institution of the first legal systems that would evolve over centuries into serfdom so it's not all positive, but there was a span of about 100 years in there where very few people were legally compelled to provide extremely cheap labor I've done a lot of reading about Rome for BTDEM. One of the more interesting twists I found was there was literally a pro-piracy faction in the senate, since pirates were a great way of having dubiously-sourced slaves enter the economy. It was a part of why pirates were so difficult to remove for so long - the senate was literally handicapping the navy from doing their jobs, because it was profitable to let the pirates continue. Eventually... Pompey? had enough, and just wiped them all out in a matter of months, but the historical tidbit is interesting, especially with the more meta "Hey, we need slaves, and these people provide them while we're not on large expansion conquests"
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Sep 7, 2022 14:00
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Larry Parrish posted:dude, its supposed to be a running joke. The first couple times I thought it was just a joke (and it's obvious to me that it's expected to be read that way), but then it applied to literally every time both parents show up at the same time, and then the very first time two grandparents showed up together they're described as flirting. Or how his mother's notes imply she used a summoned angel person as a gigolo when she was in high school. It's not exactly a big problem (though that last thing is a little weird); if anything it's kind of funny how conspicuous it's become. I actually like the general idea of the parents being a present and relevant part of the story. It'd be nice if there weren't virtually zero exceptions to it, though (the only scene I can recall with both his parents in it that doesn't have this is the flashback where his mom and dad are arguing about what they both did to the protagonist). I saw someone mention this in the comments, and apparently some of their other work is a lot less "PG," so at least they're managing to keep things under control on that front.
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Sep 7, 2022 22:54
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Gladi posted:Um, let us not underplay Roman slavery. A latifundia is just another word for a plantation and being a slave mine was a literal death sentence. i had no intention of downplaying the conditions faced by Roman slaves; broadly they were the same or worse than most other forms of slavery throughout history in terms of the danger of the work. the primary difference was on the legal and cultural end of things, as i tried to emphasize in my previous post; murdering a slave directly was always punishable, at first through fines and then eventually genuine criminal penalties, and culturally slaves were often freed upon their master's death, or if they put together the cash to buy themselves. don't get me wrong. this is all still slavery and completely deplorable. but the legal and cultural structures around roman slavery were less laser-focused on maintaining the institution at any cost than most other historical forms of slavery, especially american slavery.
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Sep 7, 2022 23:10
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Jazerus posted:Snip Sorry, I have seen bit too many people go "actually, Roman slavery was fine", discounting that not every slave was a doctor, accountant or a tutor. And I thought ancient Egypt legally treated slaves well?
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Sep 7, 2022 23:37
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Ytlaya posted:The first couple times I thought it was just a joke (and it's obvious to me that it's expected to be read that way), but then it applied to literally every time both parents show up at the same time, and then the very first time two grandparents showed up together they're described as flirting. Or how his mother's notes imply she used a summoned angel person as a gigolo when she was in high school. It's definitely just a joke, man. Sometimes a joke can be sexual in nature without it being an excuse to tell everyone what you jack off to. I don't know what you were expecting out of ISM but it's definitely the tamest of Macronomicon's stories.
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Sep 7, 2022 23:41
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Slavery is bad. Other forms of not-technically-owning-people-but-still-severely-underpaying-them-and-marginilizing-them-so-they-can-be-exploited are also bad. I choose to believe it is not necessary, however widespread it is currently (and I agree that the way American workers, especially "migrant" workers are mistreated is awful). By most reports, Pre-columbian native americans managed a high and healthy standard of living without significant oppression. So much so that many colonists chose to leave their colonies to join the natives. Elder Cultivator addresses the problem of an exploited underclass of mortals by having the MC make it one of his main life goals to teach everyone to cultivate. The Commonweal series, a traditional 5 book series, is set in a culture where one of the principle foundations of the society is something like: the primary benefit of any work shall accrue to the laborer. i.e. Everyone gets paid fairly. There's an SA thread about the series: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=4006013 LLSix fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Sep 8, 2022 |
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Sep 8, 2022 00:23
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Kyoujin posted:Seconding Jack Among Snakes. It's a very bingable and inoffensive story with consistent updates. I've been enjoying A Practical Guide to Sorcery, here's what I wrote about it a ways back: Bremen posted:So, for a completely different take on broke mage with financial trouble, I've recently been catching up on A Practical Guide to Sorcery (not to be confused with that other Practical Guide).
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Sep 8, 2022 01:52
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Thx I'll check that out. Another serial I've read for awhile and can recommend is https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/47995/memoirs-of-your-local-small-time-villainess I like how the villainess personality is hard coded in so the reincarnated lady has to work through it. Also cool how things are changed since the game is limited compared to reality so unexpected events and mistakes can happen when relying too hard on game knowledge.
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Sep 8, 2022 06:48
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I don't have a lot to say about today's (135) TUTBAD chapter except that I'm loving stoked. Hell yeah, intrigue, traps, and Alfric's mom!
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Sep 8, 2022 22:55
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Wild that the stenobook keeps coming in clutch.
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Sep 8, 2022 23:43
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Kyoujin posted:Thx I'll check that out. Really digging this one, the writing is well done and the pacing is brisk. I like how the world is just goofy enough where it really feels like some kind of Skyrim ish video game - there's assassins, old ruins, systems and languages that make no sense in the context of the world itself.
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Sep 9, 2022 18:00
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Catching up with all the Pale Lights chapters, and I totally called there being something going on with Isabel charming Angharad. I like the dichotomy between the two characters, where one is basically super street-smart and the other is very strong but obviously still from a noble's background. What little new information about the setting has popped up has also been pretty compelling. One thing that isn't clear to me is whether this world lives in a sort of perpetual night, or if it even has any sort of visible day/night cycle. It's described as being in some sort of place shielded from an eternal light where the light breaks through in some places. edit: Caught up with the Patreon chapters now (so up to chapter 8). Really enjoying this and excited to see who from the current cast ends up sticking around. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 07:17 on Sep 10, 2022 |
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Sep 10, 2022 03:21
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Kyoujin posted:Thx I'll check that out. I read through this. It's good, thanks for the rec!
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Sep 10, 2022 13:49
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Ytlaya posted:Catching up with all the Pale Lights chapters, and I totally called there being something going on with Isabel charming Angharad. There’s a description of the setting in the summary, which doesn’t seem particularly spoilery to me.
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Sep 10, 2022 20:26
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Ar'Kendrithyst Patreon: Erick invents new world changing magic, but more importantly, goes on a date 
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Sep 11, 2022 00:07
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blastron posted:There’s a description of the setting in the summary, which doesn’t seem particularly spoilery to me. It's still not 100% clear. It seems like the places under the Glare might be like "eternal twilight" (I think this is how Sacromonte is described), but is there basically just a big dome protecting the livable world from the eternal sun (with cracks in it letting through some light, and people live in those areas)? The places untouched by the Glare appear to be called the Gloam and have some dangerous properties.
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Sep 11, 2022 01:10
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Peachfart posted:Ar'Kendrithyst Patreon: Erick invents new world changing magic, but more importantly, goes on a date Yeah, that was cute. God do I hate that fairy though. She feels like what Eric might be in a few hundred years, if he loses his way a bit.
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Sep 11, 2022 02:02
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Latest TWI Patreon continues to show pirateaba's strongest ability as a writer, the ability to make even tertiary characters into protagonists in their own right. It's probably entirely due to how insanely long and meandering it is, but TWI is seriously the only written work, not even web serial, that makes it feel like any random person introduced is the main character of their own story rather than existing purely as a bystander in someone else's.
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Sep 11, 2022 10:29
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that's what people used to say about worm back when people thought wildbow was great
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Sep 11, 2022 11:15
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While Wildbow fans do still praise him for his secondary and tertiary characters I don't think I've ever read any of them, even the most zealous, make the claim he is the only writer in history to write non-protagonists that feel like real people. Would love to be proven wrong though. The 'my favourite web serial writer is actually the greatest writer of all time' posts are often amazing to read.
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Sep 11, 2022 11:28
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Infinity Gaia posted:Latest TWI Patreon continues to show pirateaba's strongest ability as a writer, the ability to make even tertiary characters into protagonists in their own right. It's probably entirely due to how insanely long and meandering it is, but TWI is seriously the only written work, not even web serial, that makes it feel like any random person introduced is the main character of their own story rather than existing purely as a bystander in someone else's. you haven't read many books outside of genre fiction i take it. see i think most of the stuff on RR/KU is absolute dreck because uh, that's sort of the basic standard of good writing, is characterization. imo. anyway if that's what you're into you'd probably like Ar'Kendrythist
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Sep 11, 2022 11:30
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I don't entirely disagree, but that's a benefit of TWI's length, not because pirateaba is uniquely talented among all authors. Also, note the difference between feeling like a "main character" and feeling like a "real character", the latter of which the poster did not make any claims about. Yes, of course other authors can write many characters who feel like main characters (and extremely likely with a greater deal of finesse), but most authors also don't have the time to regularly deliver large novellas expounding on the daily lives of their dozens of recurring characters and several one-off characters. The biggest strength and biggest weakness of TWI is that if you really want to know the story of that one rat digging through the inn's pantry, you're probably gonna get it at some point. anyway the chapter was very cool and gave us an interesting glimpse of how they might resolve some of the outstanding quests, gave some hints at the future of the inn, and also made valeterisa a lot more interesting when we found out whom she considered to be the best mages in fissival
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Sep 11, 2022 13:19
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Something not mentioned as much is the 'pots theory' of getting better. A study divided a class in half. One side was graded on who made the best pot, the other side was graded on who made the most pots. Ready, set, GO! End of the class, the side who made the most pots, who were just blitzing through making as many as possible, had nicer, better pots than the people who were told to just make the best. It was because of how much practice they were getting in making pots, instead of focusing on quality from the start. Practice generally improve performance. Pirate's written more words than most professional authors in their entire lifetime. I'm not surprised that they've gotten pretty darn good at it.
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Sep 11, 2022 17:38
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Larry Parrish posted:you haven't read many books outside of genre fiction i take it. see i think most of the stuff on RR/KU is absolute dreck because uh, that's sort of the basic standard of good writing, is characterization. imo. anyway if that's what you're into you'd probably like Ar'Kendrythist Ar'Kendrythist does not have any main characters other than Erick. It's very clearly his story and everyone else is secondary to him in the writing. It's nothing like the latest two chapters of TWI where Valeterisa is the main character for the short arc or many other examples in TWI. Another example of this that is mainstream is GoT though that is less of a tertiary character becoming the main character for a short arc and instead multiple main characters. I think in general non serial fiction is too short to allow this for the most part. asur fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Sep 11, 2022 |
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Sep 11, 2022 21:06
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Huh, I've mostly seen the opposite where published books I used to read like Malazan Book of the Fallen felt alive with the world and characters while the web serials I've been reading focus on a single character or a small group of protagonists.
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Sep 11, 2022 22:26
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yes, there are certainly huge traditionally published series like malazan that live in the same scope as TWI. even some very, uh, mediocre writers like harry turtledove structure their books like that. TWI by virtue of sheer length has been able to explore its world more than pretty much any other work, though, i think that's fair to say. whether that's your thing or not is up to you
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Sep 11, 2022 22:34
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I'm enjoying the synchronicity of today's BtDEM being about the selection of the third class while the Patreon episode is the selection of they class's evolution.
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Sep 12, 2022 17:00
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Wittgen posted:I'm enjoying the synchronicity of today's BtDEM being about the selection of the third class while the Patreon episode is the selection of they class's evolution. I have no idea how I manage to pull stuff like that off, but I've frequently noted a "20 chapter effect". It's not deliberate, I don't plan things like that, it just happens. Also, 20 chapters is WAY longer than I was hoping to spend on that. This arc is trying to get away from me, and I'm trying to keep it to a manageable length.
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Sep 12, 2022 19:40
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Selkie Myth posted:
I don't think the school arc is to long, I really liked the change of tone that came with it. There was space for some more school shenanigans before timeskipping. I would have liked to learn more about the interesting roommates.
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Sep 13, 2022 09:33
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RE: Trailer Trash has been released on Amazon and I finally took my plunge into it on RR, then bought it. It's very good.
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Sep 14, 2022 01:57
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Megazver posted:RE: Trailer Trash has been released on Amazon and I finally took my plunge into it on RR, then bought it. It's very good. Nice, I wonder if the author is going to start release chapters more frequently or if it's going to be another 3 years before the end of book two.
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Sep 14, 2022 23:24
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I think they've recently completed, or are nearly completed with, their smut thing that was the focus of their full efforts for the last x years, so I should hope this bodes well for RE:TT!
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Sep 15, 2022 05:36
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they're just a really slow writer I guess
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Sep 15, 2022 05:39
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