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The descriptions of the broke games and how they have fun it them strike a cord with me playing garbage games as a kid (because I couldn't afford anything else) and coming up with fun strats. I probably dumped over 1000 hours into Clayfighter for the SNES as well as a bunch of other garbage. It resonates.
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Sep 23, 2022 00:09
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i dont think vrmmo as a genre is suited for any stakes bigger than "let's get our guild to #1!" every time ive seen someone try it just feels really hamfisted and awkward. especially since most of them default to three plot devices: 1) i need money and the game has a real money auctionhouse 2) The Game Is Actually Real 3) irl drama it actually is way rarer for a vrmmo story to not do (2) in some fashion than not. which is understandable because (3) feels like a boring distraction from the central draw (the mmo) and (1) tends to lose relevance past the early chapters, so if you want some stakes that's the easiest way to make a video game "matter" but its the cliche of all cliches at this point. also the way some writers write about pk is like. psychopathic.
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Sep 23, 2022 00:12
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Stexils posted:i dont think vrmmo as a genre is suited for any stakes bigger than "let's get our guild to #1!" every time ive seen someone try it just feels really hamfisted and awkward. especially since most of them default to three plot devices: yeah this basically the spicier you write the plot to facilitate tangible stakes, the closer you get to something like The Matrix or eXistenZ and not a "real" VRMMO story
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Sep 23, 2022 00:22
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a hamburger is flexible, but if you change too much or you change certain key facets of it then what you end up with is no longer classifiable as a hamburger which might not matter from your perspective-- the final product can still be delicious (even better than a hamburger), but you're going to lose everyone that walked in hoping to get a hamburger
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Sep 23, 2022 00:37
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I actually like lower stakes. When the stakes are low there's actually a meta possibility of failure. When there's a fight to the death in chapter 16, the outcome is a foregone conclusion.
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Sep 23, 2022 01:06
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Dad of Light is a good (live action) show that uses an mmo as a framing device/narrative tool, I recommend people check it out
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Sep 23, 2022 01:32
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Shangri-La Frontier is good because it features cute bunnies. QED.
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Sep 23, 2022 02:33
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it works because despite the mc doing cool stuff in-game he always looks goofy as hell, which is the proper mmo experience.
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Sep 23, 2022 02:34
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Shangri-La has "no real stakes" but it also doesn't feel stagnant because of it. The manga frames the MC's goal as just wanting to fight even harder-slash-jankier bosses, so you still get a sense of progression, and it works because the manga genuinely just wants to be a love letter to MMOs instead of using it as an excuse to have your usual masturbatory isekai/VR/etc story. It's less about the MC's personal story and more like you're watching a Let's Play of an imaginary MMO.
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Sep 23, 2022 02:34
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It's kinda hard to 'have stakes' when the entire premise of the story is just someone puppeteering a character to do things they can't. It's like being invested in the life of Battlebot contestants vs their robots.
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Sep 23, 2022 02:39
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RareAcumen posted:It's kinda hard to 'have stakes' when the entire premise of the story is just someone puppeteering a character to do things they can't. It's like being invested in the life of Battlebot contestants vs their robots. it's easy if you don't put it in a really specific box like, make the robot bigger and there's a whole genre of really high stakes media exploring the use of battlebots as weapons of war make the robot a living creature (like a monster of some kind) and there's another, completely different one investigating the relationship between trainer and vicarious battler but again all of this requires going outside the expectations of the premise and basically turning it into something entirely different; the genre isn't necessarily incapable of stakes, the paradox is that the only way to give it stakes is to push it toward being something else nothing about "the protagonist puppeteers a separate, more capable body" precludes stakes, it's all the trappings and surrounding concepts that make it an obstacle Lunatic Sledge fucked around with this message at 02:58 on Sep 23, 2022 |
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Sep 23, 2022 02:53
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genre is a cage
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Sep 23, 2022 03:04
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Bofuri is the best MMO anime because it's about how one player is so bad at the game she's actually really good at the game. Edit: The stakes are whether or not it's actually possible to patch the game. It's a psychological horror anime for game devs.
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Sep 23, 2022 04:25
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MMOs can feel like they have real stakes, they just take some thinking that usually requires knowledge of the genre. The King's Avatar has a decent chunk of its conflicts coming from the various official fanguilds of the esports pvp guilds competing to get world firsts whenever a new server is spun up (which is also when the story kicks off) and then competing to get and then maintain the best clear times in the hardest pve content. The stakes aren't any higher than normal MMO stuff but the intense passion sure is there. And then when the actual esports pros start borrowing accounts to beat an independent rising star on the new server who keeps stealing records from their fans, and their performance in the actual esports degrades as a direct result... well, those are the stakes I suppose.
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Sep 23, 2022 04:31
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:it works because despite the mc doing cool stuff in-game he always looks goofy as hell, which is the proper mmo experience. the proper mmo experience is to spend 40 hours obsessing over your outfit, then stepping out of the customization room to see some dude wearing nothing but a towel and a clown wig calling you cringe
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Sep 23, 2022 06:24
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Does it go overboard on glitches and exploits? I read one where the game was so broken that he was doing things like grinding by whacking a torch that had infinite HP, and his secret overpowered technique was frame cancelling his attacks. I forget the title but it was fun while the novelty lasted, up until you realize it's more or less the same joke repeated ad infinitum.
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Sep 23, 2022 06:31
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SpiderLink posted:Shangri-La Frontier is good because it features
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Sep 23, 2022 06:49
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Yinlock posted:the proper mmo experience is to spend 40 hours obsessing over your outfit, then stepping out of the customization room to see FTFY
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Sep 23, 2022 14:29
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Overgeared (and Moonlight Sculptor which is basically the same thing) , had the tension come from him having to earn enough money in the dumb MMO to support his family. I found that compelling, and (in Overgeared 's case) become much less interesting when he solved that initial issue.
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Sep 23, 2022 16:01
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Do those guys support their families by streaming? Or is it some play to earn thing. A VRMMO anime focused on streamer culture might be interesting.
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Sep 23, 2022 23:50
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I’ve never really gotten the idea that lack of stakes is necessarily a problem. Like, are stakes cool? Yes, sure, but I read a ton of slice of life series where the only stakes are interpersonal drama even without MMO overlay, so I have never thought it was necessary.
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Sep 24, 2022 01:11
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Most of the stuff in an MMORPG manga just reads like a 10-year-old talking about how cool their own MMORPG idea is or something.
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Sep 24, 2022 01:36
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Yeah but that’s a matter of writing quality, not stakes.
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Sep 24, 2022 01:37
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The litmus test is whether or not you can tell if the author actually plays mmos
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Sep 24, 2022 01:43
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Runa posted:The litmus test is whether or not you can tell if the author actually plays mmos So many MMO stories that feel like the last MMO the author heard about was EverQuest.
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Sep 24, 2022 01:45
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VRMMO where they go to a virtual dance club and tip the dj on twitch.
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Sep 24, 2022 01:52
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I always felt like the author of SAO had played Ragnarok Online or something for 2 hours, saw a high level person run by and blow up a bunch of slimes in one hit, and then decided to write a book about how cool that person was.
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Sep 24, 2022 06:24
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Argue posted:Does it go overboard on glitches and exploits? I read one where the game was so broken that he was doing things like grinding by whacking a torch that had infinite HP, and his secret overpowered technique was frame cancelling his attacks. I forget the title but it was fun while the novelty lasted, up until you realize it's more or less the same joke repeated ad infinitum. First, you're thinking of Kono Sekai ga Game dato Ore dake ga Shitte Iru which sadly hasn't seen an update in ages. And to answer your question, No and Yes. The main setting, Shangri-la, is very well made and doesn't feature much in the way of exploits; in fact the only one I can think of got patched out as soon as the MC had made good use of it. However because the MC loves playing kusoge, periodically he takes a break from Shangri-la to go meet old friends in one of those janky games. The series does a good job of mixing those up as well, from what I remember we've seen: a survival game where the players hated it so much they turned on the NPCs and took over, a fighting game full of broken hitboxes and frame cancelling glitches, and a build-your-own-mech combat game.
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Sep 24, 2022 07:44
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Nemo2342 posted:First, you're thinking of Kono Sekai ga Game dato Ore dake ga Shitte Iru which sadly hasn't seen an update in ages. That last one was not a Kusoge either, by all appearances.
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Sep 24, 2022 08:49
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skaianDestiny posted:What's that about? Shangri-La Frontier is a lighthearted adventure romp about Sunraku, a guy who loves lovely games. Terrible platformers like Battletoads that require god-like reflexes to beat? Yes. JRPGs like Tales of Graces with awful writing and annoying characters? Yes. Broken messes like Sonic '06 that need frame-perfect inputs to pull off glitches? Hell loving yes. After beating a particularly annoying game, the owner of the video game store he frequents suggests that as a breath of fresh air, he should try out a 'critically-acclaimed MMO FFXIV'-level game, the titular Shangri-La Frontier. SpiderLink posted:Shangri-La Frontier is good because it features cute bunnies. QED. gimme the GOD drat candy posted:it works because despite the mc doing cool stuff in-game he always looks goofy as hell, which is the proper mmo experience. blizzardvizard posted:Shangri-La has "no real stakes" but it also doesn't feel stagnant because of it. The manga frames the MC's goal as just wanting to fight even harder-slash-jankier bosses, so you still get a sense of progression, and it works because the manga genuinely just wants to be a love letter to MMOs instead of using it as an excuse to have your usual masturbatory isekai/VR/etc story. It's less about the MC's personal story and more like you're watching a Let's Play of an imaginary MMO. Besides all of these, Shangri-La Frontier also does a bunch of things that put it above the usual VRMMO fare: - Sunraku doesn't really get one-of-a-kind invincible gear or overpowered moves like other VRMMO protagonists. His main weapons are the reflexes, persistence and outside-the-box thinking that he honed from playing poo poo games. - At the same time, the series doesn't do the "MC comes up with the revolutionary idea of having someone act as a tank that no one else came up with" like in other series. Other characters come across as being intelligent players and have come up with their own strats. - Sunraku and his friends are very relatable in that they spend the game trolling the hell out of each other.  - No harem bullshit and the wome's designs aren't fanservice-y as hell. There's only one person who has a crush on Sunraku and it's the one who looks like Golbez from Final Fantasy. - You get the feeling the author knows the MMO experience from how they write the series: Players are very particular about their character's looks, there's goofy clothing options, there're people who really wanna find out how to get cute pets, fighting unique bosses isn't a solo endeavor and has Sunraku teaming up with others like it's a raid. Argue posted:Does it go overboard on glitches and exploits? I read one where the game was so broken that he was doing things like grinding by whacking a torch that had infinite HP, and his secret overpowered technique was frame cancelling his attacks. I forget the title but it was fun while the novelty lasted, up until you realize it's more or less the same joke repeated ad infinitum. The manga you're thinking of is "I Am the Only One Who Knows This World Is a Game." Shangri-La Frontier the MMO doesn't have glitches or exploits, all of those are found in the other games Sunraku plays. He occasionally takes a break from the MMO to play those, and it fun seeing how each game has different ways of being absolute dogshit.
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Sep 24, 2022 08:49
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Siegkrow posted:That last one was not a Kusoge either, by all appearances. It did have controls so bad it made users physically ill, and required hundreds (thousands?) Of hours to adjust to using half of the poo poo in the game without making yourself vomit all over your VR headset. Thats kinda a poo poo game design.
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Sep 24, 2022 11:47
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Clarste posted:I always felt like the author of SAO had played Ragnarok Online or something for 2 hours, saw a high level person run by and blow up a bunch of slimes in one hit, and then decided to write a book about how cool that person was. I believe that Kawahara had said Lord of the Flies was the initial inspiration.
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Sep 24, 2022 19:30
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IIRC he also said that the MMO community stuff is basically entirely speculation.
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Sep 25, 2022 00:12
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"Hearsay/stuff I kinda read in a magazine and vaguely remember of FFXI/EQ/UO/RO" fits SAO1 perfectly yeah
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Sep 25, 2022 00:28
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i don't quite get why authenticity is so rare in mmo stories. it's a video game. you buy it and play it for a while and bam, now you understand mmo culture. but instead you get these weird rear end copies of copies of copies where the original author had also never played a mmo.
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Sep 25, 2022 00:35
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:i don't quite get why authenticity is so rare in mmo stories. it's a video game. you buy it and play it for a while and bam, now you understand mmo culture. but instead you get these weird rear end copies of copies of copies where the original author had also never played a mmo. all the writers that actually play MMOs are too busy ERPing to write about it
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Sep 25, 2022 00:52
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The most realistic was MMO Junkie where they all went to buy cash cards at the combini when a new costume scratch came out
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Sep 25, 2022 01:17
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kirbysuperstar posted:The most realistic was MMO Junkie where they all went to buy cash cards at the combini when a new costume scratch came out I loved that show, it combined my two loves of romance and MMOs. Man do I like romance stories for an asexual. Too bad about the director being a humongous bigot.
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Sep 25, 2022 02:04
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Kwyndig posted:I loved that show, it combined my two loves of romance and MMOs. Man do I like romance stories for an asexual. You can read the original story, at least
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Sep 25, 2022 02:10
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It's apparently based on a web manga that has ended.
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Sep 25, 2022 02:17
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