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M_Gargantua posted:The only metric by which you can argue there is a shortage of housing is that there is a shortage of housing in <15m proximity to dense employment locations. The suburb and exurb sprawls have made housing near gainful employment more difficult. But as far as available housing to American households? We have so much surplus you could squat in it. who loving cares if it’s in dead factory towns or a two hour commute from a real job Zamujasa posted:one problem you might be overlooking is that nobody "wants" groceries to cost less than x, they need groceries to be affordable, same as housing, clothing, and utilities this is not an inflation problem. this is an absolute poverty problem. if you can’t afford groceries, you don’t need price controls to keep your groceries at the same level of unaffordability. You need more income price controls do not work. subsidies impoverish societies over the long run. ask loving haiti or venezuela how well subsidizing fuel prices worked out. ask new york how well rent control without building new housing stock has worked
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Nov 3, 2022 21:34
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hypnophant posted:this is not an inflation problem. this is an absolute poverty problem. if you can’t afford groceries, you don’t need price controls to keep your groceries at the same level of unaffordability. You need more income I think it's time for corporations to tighten their belts, not actual human beings. I too can cherry pick poo poo to prove a whatever point I want. You will not be elevated to a rich person by sucking off your corporate overlords.
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Nov 3, 2022 21:39
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Guys, it's only the 3rd. Usually this thread waits until at least the 10th to implode. I was hoping we could at least wait until next week with the election.
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Nov 3, 2022 21:41
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ASAPI posted:Guys, it's only the 3rd. If we blow it up before then there will be nothing left for the election to destroy. We're burning the thread to save it. Edit: first 30 seconds of this are relevant https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NY1P1N00BZ8 Steezo fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Nov 3, 2022 |
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Nov 3, 2022 21:43
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hypnophant posted:this is not an inflation problem. this is an absolute poverty problem. if you can’t afford groceries, you don’t need price controls to keep your groceries at the same level of unaffordability. You need more income I think we're coming at the same point from different angles at least?
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Nov 3, 2022 21:44
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Arrath posted:Just how incorruptible is this official supposed to be. The judge at the hearing today joked that he should appoint judge Dearie.
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Nov 3, 2022 21:45
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Arrath posted:Just how incorruptible is this official supposed to be. Paging a Mr. James Comey. James Comey please pick up the courtesy telephone.
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Nov 3, 2022 21:49
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Steezo posted:If we blow it up before then there will be nothing left for the election to destroy. 
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Nov 3, 2022 21:51
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hypnophant posted:who loving cares if it’s in dead factory towns or a two hour commute from a real job It bears mentioning that increasing wages will necessarily increase prices. Groceries and restaurants in Switzerland and Norway are incredibly expensive, but then again they also pay their people a lot more and have a high quality of life. In theory this shouldn't matter so long as people are getting paid fairly, but a friend of mine has doubled his income in the past 24 months and is still screaming about how 7% grocery inflation has eroded all of his gains. The way people feel about the economy has nothing to do with how it's actually performing.
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Nov 3, 2022 21:57
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Steezo posted:I think it's time for corporations to tighten their belts, not actual human beings. I too can cherry pick poo poo to prove a whatever point I want. You will not be elevated to a rich person by sucking off your corporate overlords. that’s nice but forcing corporations to “tighten their belts” will mean they close more stores in food deserts, hire fewer cashiers and cheat and abuse them more, squeeze their suppliers more for cheaper, shittier goods, consolidate more, and in three more years someone’ll still be posting some marxist nonsense about how the problem is the profit motive instead of an ever-increasing fraction of the population being cut off from the education, health care, and housing they need to participate in the modern economy also if you think i’m a corporate shill go loving gently caress yourself. wealth tax now psydude posted:It bears mentioning that increasing wages will necessarily increase prices. Groceries and restaurants in Switzerland and Norway are incredibly expensive, but then again they also pay their people a lot more and have a high quality of life. I acknowledge this but it doesn’t loving help when alleged leftists are in here parroting conservative propaganda about joe loving biden impoverishing you by not fixing inflation hypnophant fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Nov 3, 2022 |
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Nov 3, 2022 22:00
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hypnophant posted:
If it walks like a duck, if it does whataboutism about everything except price gouging like a duck...
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Nov 3, 2022 22:07
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hypnophant posted:I acknowledge this but it doesn’t loving help when alleged leftists are in here parroting conservative propaganda about joe loving biden impoverishing you by not fixing inflation Oh, I completely agree with you. I'm just making the point that paying people a fair wage will increase costs in most sectors regardless of profit margins. For some reason Americans don't think this is the case, but the reality is that the current cost structure in the US is built upon the exploitation of cheap labor. Uber rides, door dash deliveries, and non-seasonal produce were affordable in the past for a reason. psydude fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Nov 3, 2022 |
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Nov 3, 2022 22:08
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Steezo posted:If it walks like a duck, if it does whataboutism about everything except price gouging like a duck... failing to subscribe to your utter denial of economic reality is not duck-like
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Nov 3, 2022 22:10
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hypnophant posted:failing to subscribe to your utter denial of economic reality is not duck-like My dude price gouging is driving inflation here, not paying poor people more.
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Nov 3, 2022 22:13
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hypnophant posted:https://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/ag-and-food-statistics-charting-the-essentials/food-prices-and-spending/ This is very fancy theory, but complete horseshit in reality. My income hasn't significantly increased in the last year, but I'm paying a lot more for my groceries than I used to. It isn't a massive shift in absolute terms because I'm poverty personified, but I'm paying €10-15 a month more than I used to, and that's a ~15% increase.
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Nov 3, 2022 22:16
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hypnophant posted:that’s nice but forcing corporations to “tighten their belts” will mean they close more stores in food deserts, hire fewer cashiers and cheat and abuse them more, squeeze their suppliers more for cheaper, shittier goods, consolidate more, and in three more years someone’ll still be posting some marxist nonsense about how the problem is the profit motive i mean, loving lmao if you think corporations need an excuse for any of that, but also: it is? like no loving poo poo, bozo, the rush to slash prices and pump profits is a serious reason why everything is unaffordable now, that doesn't make it "nonsense" psydude posted:It bears mentioning that increasing wages will necessarily increase prices. Groceries and restaurants in Switzerland and Norway are incredibly expensive, but then again they also pay their people a lot more and have a high quality of life. and yet somehow washington's $14-15 hourly wage has not caused prices in washing to skyrocket in comparison to neighboring locales with far lower minimum wages despite years of screeching by restaurants and stores, how weird
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Nov 3, 2022 22:17
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e^: Because that still isn't a livable wage in those areas. You can't live in DC on $15/hr.Steezo posted:My dude price gouging is driving inflation here, not paying poor people more. How do you account for the global increase in inflation, even in countries where price gouging isn't an issue? Wouldn't that indicate the issue is more related to supply chain challenges and fuel costs, as has been suggested by most economists?
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Nov 3, 2022 22:18
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If theres inflation, there shouldnt be record corporate profits.
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Nov 3, 2022 22:18
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My Spirit Otter posted:If theres inflation, there shouldnt be record corporate profits.
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Nov 3, 2022 22:20
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psydude posted:e^: Because that still isn't a livable wage in those areas. You can't live in DC on $15/hr. My Spirit Otter posted:If theres inflation, there shouldnt be record corporate profits. ^ Its this. Also I recommend, in light of having to burn this thread to save it, we should be moving some posters to a strategic posting hamlet for their own safety.
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Nov 3, 2022 22:20
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hypnophant posted:in three more years someone’ll still be posting some marxist nonsense about how the problem is the profit motive instead of an ever-increasing fraction of the population being cut off from the education, health care, and housing they need to participate in the modern economy Does the former not drive the latter?
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Nov 3, 2022 22:22
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M_Gargantua posted:I think we're coming at the same point from different angles at least? Its more about pointing out that the basic premises of economics are well understood and trying to pretend they aren't real isn't a starting point (not addressed at you). The Feds response is textbook, in the face of textbook inflation, and its really the only thing they can do. Everything else requires a legislature that can legislate. My Spirit Otter posted:If theres inflation, there shouldnt be record corporate profits. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of economics.
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Nov 3, 2022 22:25
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My Spirit Otter posted:If theres inflation, there shouldnt be record corporate profits. lightpole posted:This is a fundamental misunderstanding of economics. We live in a capitalist hell-system, who cares.
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Nov 3, 2022 22:25
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Steezo posted:My dude price gouging is driving inflation here, not paying poor people more. You are deluded if you think grocery stores have the pricing power to gouge a piece of toast with cold butter. They are grocery stores. They own nothing but some big-box real estate. They control no ip, no human capital, they can barely lobby a town council. They are completely interchangeable in the grand scheme of the national interest. They are a commodity. You could open a grocery chain tomorrow, if you only had the capital. The second some glass-eyed PE vampire thinks he can make ten points of yield by undercutting an incumbent they will go the way of barnes and noble. Grocery stores are not robber barons, and the problem is not the mighty power of grocery stores to crush poor working stiffs under their boot. The problem is that some people’s position in society is so fragile that they can be crushed by a ten percent rise in the price of milk and canned tuna. We can’t fix these people’s lives by making sure than tuna only goes up 8%.
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Nov 3, 2022 22:31
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lightpole posted:Its more about pointing out that the basic premises of economics are well understood and trying to pretend they aren't real isn't a starting point (not addressed at you). The Feds response is textbook, in the face of textbook inflation, and its really the only thing they can do. Everything else requires a legislature that can legislate. Profit doesnt mean cash intake, moran
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Nov 3, 2022 22:32
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My Spirit Otter posted:If theres inflation, there shouldnt be record corporate profits. inflation guarantees profits will be record because they are reported in nominal dollars.
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Nov 3, 2022 22:33
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hypnophant posted:inflation guarantees profits will be record because they are reported in nominal dollars. To get profit, you have to subtract all of those dollars you spent from all of those dollars you earned, the dollars you spent are also inflated.
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Nov 3, 2022 22:35
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And you are deluded in thinking that grocery stores are interchangeable and compete primarily on price, because they aren't and they don't. Albert Heijn, the chain that everyone knows is the expensive store, has by far the biggest market share here.
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Nov 3, 2022 22:36
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If i had said record income, i'd get it, but goddamn, folks.
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Nov 3, 2022 22:36
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hypnophant posted:You are deluded if you think grocery stores have the pricing power to gouge a piece of toast with cold butter. They are grocery stores. They own nothing but some big-box real estate. They control no ip, no human capital, they can barely lobby a town council. They are completely interchangeable in the grand scheme of the national interest. They are a commodity. You could open a grocery chain tomorrow, if you only had the capital. The second some glass-eyed PE vampire thinks he can make ten points of yield by undercutting an incumbent they will go the way of barnes and noble. i don't know what grocery stores you're talking about that "don't have the pricing power". maybe one of the largest corporations in the world? or maybe idk this one that's about to buy this one that already owns a laundry list of other grocers it's okay though, price fixing isn't real, it's just supply/demand 
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Nov 3, 2022 22:37
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hypnophant posted:inflation guarantees profits will be record because they are reported in nominal dollars. And when the procentual increase in profits is greater than inflation for every company in the industry it's what exactly?
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Nov 3, 2022 22:37
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Zamujasa posted:i don't know what grocery stores you're talking about that "don't have the pricing power". maybe one of the largest corporations in the world? or maybe idk this one that's about to buy this one that already owns a laundry list of other grocers https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/loblaw-parent-company-alerted-competition-watchdog-to-bread-price-fixing/article37387816/ At least use a grocery store price fixing example, to really nail the point home
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Nov 3, 2022 22:39
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Is there a GiP Economics Debate Thread
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Nov 3, 2022 22:43
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Not to interrupt here, but a lot of economics talk is like law talk. Sure, there's a lot of debate about theories and general ground rules about it that make complete sense. But then someone with power comes in and goes LAW IS FAKE LOL and it really doesn't matter if 2+2=4 anymore, because it now equals cats because some rich white dude says that 2+2=cats. So have a hot dog in honor of National Sandwich Day. https://twitter.com/USCPSC/status/1588255199742730240?t=bPBlQeN8rP0pYpmh3_hj8w&s=19
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Nov 3, 2022 22:45
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That Works posted:Does the former not drive the latter? no. corporations are profitable when they have access to a labor pool of educated, healthy workers in secure housing and with reliable access to transportation. They also need good infrastructure to connect them to their suppliers and customers, and good governance to reduce systemic uncertainty; from natural disasters, from political instability, and from crime. This is why the most profitable companies are found in the most developed cities; because that is where the the deepest and most productive labor pools, the best infrastructure, the least volatile governments are all located. None of this improves when schools get worse or people’s health care gets cut off or the housing stock crumbles from lack of occupancy. Individual companies or their owners will not necessarily perceive or lobby for their interests this way, though I am optimistic and believe the best ones will. But a lot of business owners, especially small business owners in lovely small towns, would rather be the big fish in a small, cramped, decaying rust belt or deep south pond. My Spirit Otter posted:To get profit, you have to subtract all of those dollars you spent from all of those dollars you earned, the dollars you spent are also inflated. yeah and because revenue is larger than cost, the absolute change in revenue is bigger than the absolute change in cost, when the relative change is zero. that’s how percentages work Zamujasa posted:it's okay though, price fixing isn't real, it's just supply/demand i am conspicuously talking about groceries not landlords. landlords do have pricing power, are scum, and should be taxed within an inch of their life.
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Nov 3, 2022 22:54
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hypnophant posted:i am conspicuously talking about groceries not landlords. landlords do have pricing power, are scum, and should be taxed within an inch of their life. phew, good thing this was already covered My Spirit Otter posted:https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/loblaw-parent-company-alerted-competition-watchdog-to-bread-price-fixing/article37387816/
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Nov 3, 2022 22:54
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facialimpediment posted:
Careful, you're just gonna shift the derail from inflation to "is a hot dog a sandwich?"
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Nov 3, 2022 22:59
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Hotdog Is A Sandwich is my fantasy football team name
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Nov 3, 2022 23:00
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All I know is the Popeyes turkey is $95 this year up from $40 last year. gently caress you Popeyes, I still want my tendies though.
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Nov 3, 2022 23:02
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a hotdog being a sandwich or not does not change the fact that hot dogs are delicious 
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Nov 3, 2022 23:02
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