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So I was replaying Nocturne HD with a magic build going for the Musubi ending and found something I've never seen before nor have I ever read anyone mention it. I was farming rare items in Ginza since it's pretty easy if you know how: you can recruit a Hua Po in the room next to the terminal and use her Pester skill on several demons that appear in the adjacent areas (Datsue-ba, Lilim, Apsaras, Angel) to instantly get an item (sometimes they'll just ask for a bit money or life stones twice). You can amass a decent number of revival beads/chakra drops/chakra pots/magic mirrors this way, if you're lucky an Angel might give you a Soma (which I normally sell). I wasn't even bothering to kill all demons except one before talking to them because I'm strong enough I didn't care if their allies interrupted the conversation ending my turn so I can get as many items as possible from each battle. So I was in a battle with 3 Apsaras and successfully used Pester on one of them, after that one the remaining ones displayed a "!" and automatically started talking with Hua Po saying something like "Hey, I was eavesdropping and it sounded like you were having a fun time, I want too!", starting a new negotiation. Between players usually not bothering with conversation skills that aren't about recruiting (which automatically end the battle if successful), leaving an enemy alone before talking being the most efficient method and how uncommon it seems to be (it has only happened to me once despite doing this for a reasonably long time) I'm guessing not many people have ever seen this.
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Jan 14, 2023 23:08
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NikkolasKing posted:To be a bit more serious, I'm gonna quote myself from...wow, over a year ago now. Something that's bothering me here: the "look at this meaningless world and give it meaning" viewpoint is existentialist, and Existentialism fundamentally exists within the context of an atheistic viewpoint. "Existence precedes essence." Sure, it's not incompatible with deism or other metaphysical frameworks that have one or more fundamentally uninvolved gods, but the point is that you can invest the world with meaning because you weren't ever given a meaning yourself. You are born free. But the SMT humans aren't born free, as everything with the Vortex World illustrates. The Reasons are outright anti-existentialist, in that they embrace the system of inherent meaning by seeking to imprint a new set meaning in the very building blocks of the universe. SMTIV's really the only existentialist one, thanks to Lucifer doing everyone a solid and killing God off-screen so that the Nahobino can destroy the whole system in the true ending and set humanity free. Thanks, Lucifer. You're a pal.
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Jan 15, 2023 00:20
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Einander posted:Something that's bothering me here: the "look at this meaningless world and give it meaning" viewpoint is existentialist, and Existentialism fundamentally exists within the context of an atheistic viewpoint. "Existence precedes essence." Sure, it's not incompatible with deism or other metaphysical frameworks that have one or more fundamentally uninvolved gods, but the point is that you can invest the world with meaning because you weren't ever given a meaning yourself. You are born free. But the SMT humans aren't born free, as everything with the Vortex World illustrates. The Reasons are outright anti-existentialist, in that they embrace the system of inherent meaning by seeking to imprint a new set meaning in the very building blocks of the universe. Existentialism is a broad term. You're taking it in an ethical direction when I was simply describing how human beings live and function. We can't live and function in a world where everything is random poo poo, we cope through the stories we tell ourselves, that the horrible things which happen to us happened for a reason, just like Chiaki did. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b58TzVpHGkM quote:[H]e [man] did not know how to justify, explain, affirm himself: he suffered from the problem of his meaning. He suffered otherwise as ill, he was for the most part a diseased animal; but the suffering itself was not his problem, rather that the answer was missing to the scream of his question: “to what end suffering?” Man, the bravest of animals and the one most accustomed to suffering, does not negate suffering, he wants it, he even seeks it out, provided one shows him a meaning for it, a to-this-end of suffering. The meaninglessness of suffering, not suffering itself, was the curse thus far stretched over humanity. (GM III 28 - italics indicates Nietzsche’ emphasis, bold indicates our emphasis). Something I realized the last time a Reason discussion came up is that Musubi and Shijima are dead-ends. They are worlds entirely dedicated to stunting growth because you need conflict and change to grow and they both hate those ideas more than anything else. They want everyone to shrink away from anything which might hurt them and retreat into a world of stillness or a world with no one but yourself. As Takao says, this isn't living, it's wasted space.
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Jan 15, 2023 01:06
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NikkolasKing posted:Existentialism is a broad term. You're taking it in an ethical direction when I was simply describing how human beings live and function. We can't live and function in a world where everything is random poo poo, we cope through the stories we tell ourselves, that the horrible things which happen to us happened for a reason, just like Chiaki did. I'm more pointing out that this part isn't true: quote:A Reason is a worldview and in that sense, every one of us in the real world has our own Reason. A Reason isn't a general raison d'etre, it's a term of art in the context of the Vortex World. Nothing that happened to her was "random poo poo," it was enemy action. Humans are left weak and helpless in the Vortex World so that they have to hitch themselves to already existing teams, and so that they can't rebel against the system. The Demi-Fiend is what happens when people don't have to do that, and it's not a coincidence that he's denied the ability to have a Reason. Even when Isamu and Chiaki become incredibly inhuman, they still qualify, because by that point they've accepted their place in things and moved from being victims to being collaborators. The Vortex World is an overt system of coercion and victimization. If the authors of Nocturne agreed that system is basically a microcosm for the life of humanity, I don't think returning to normal life in the neutral/"reincarnation" ending would have the uplifting narration or music at the end.
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Jan 15, 2023 01:27
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Einander posted:I'm more pointing out that this part isn't true: The Conception is the real problem and it's just kinda how the world of Nocturne works. Periodically, everything ends, and somebody has to be chosen to refashion the universe. The world our main characters lived in was itself a product of a previous Conception. This is why Neutral endings bug me - they proport to be, well, neutral, but they never are. As surely as Law or Chaos, someone made them.
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Jan 15, 2023 10:58
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NikkolasKing posted:We can't live and function in a world where everything is random poo poo, we cope through the stories we tell ourselves, that the horrible things which happen to us happened for a reason, just like Chiaki did. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Sisyphus
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Jan 16, 2023 04:05
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has Sisyphus been in an SMT game? Feels like there’s potential
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Jan 16, 2023 04:14
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I don't think so, it's too bad that guy rocks
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Jan 16, 2023 04:23
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NikkolasKing posted:The Conception is the real problem Playing more than one SMT game and this being your take away in absolutely fascinating to me.
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Jan 16, 2023 04:23
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Playing more than one SMT game and this being your take away in absolutely fascinating to me. I don't know how the other SMT games disagree with "killing billions of people is wrong." The Conception is a repeated apocalypse. Every so often, the slate is wiped clean and billions of people die because the Great Will feels like it. I don't think "tyrannical god kills lots of people" is ever something SMT would normally agree with outside of Law routes. Even the Reason systeem sucks because let's say for sake of argument Chiaki or Isamu could make up a good Reason on their best day. The Conception so thoroughly traumatizes the survivor that any Reason they can come up with is the product of a broken, disturbed mind. The Conception is absolutely bad and wrong in every conceivable way. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 05:10 on Jan 16, 2023 |
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Jan 16, 2023 04:45
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NikkolasKing posted:The Conception is the real problem and it's just kinda how the world of Nocturne works. Periodically, everything ends, and somebody has to be chosen to refashion the universe. The world our main characters lived in was itself a product of a previous Conception. The endings in Nocturne are dominated, like Einhander said, by someone higher up the chain's desire. A human is chosen to represent this, but who decides who deserves to have a Reason? It's a false meritocracy. The people who survive to form Reasons are the ones who have the ideals which are acceptable as new worlds, and they get their representative to show it. Futomimi is rejected outright, despite having just as strong of a desire as anyone. The Conception isn't how the world works, and the Kagutsuchi says as much in the freedom ending. The Great Will once 'let' the world exist without it, and didn't like how it turned out, and now we're forced into this cycle. The neutral endings are about making a choice outside of the false dichotomy of higher law and chaos powers. You're 'neutral' because you refuse to make a pre-chosen choice. Nocturne has a fairly unique take on law and chaos, and positions lucifer as outside of that system. It's why nocturne loving rocks. It swings for the fences.
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Jan 16, 2023 04:55
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studio mujahideen posted:The endings in Nocturne are dominated, like Einhander said, by someone higher up the chain's desire. A human is chosen to represent this, but who decides who deserves to have a Reason? It's a false meritocracy. The people who survive to form Reasons are the ones who have the ideals which are acceptable as new worlds, and they get their representative to show it. Futomimi is rejected outright, despite having just as strong of a desire as anyone. I never got the Freedom Ending but I don't disagree with what you're saying. That's why folks characterize all Reason endings as Law endings. Chiaki sounds the most Chaotic but her minions are angels. Of course, if the Conception is simply the whim of the Great Will, Lucifer's plan in TDE seems excessive. This is kind of a problem you have In IVA, too. Where does the will of an all powerful god end and the universe itself begin? Can you remove the former and live happily in the latter? Dagda and Lucifer say no. You have to burn the whole thing down to know true freedom. But if the Conception and the cycle of trapped, tortured souls like Hijiri's isn't inevitable, punching God in the face seems better than killing the multiverse.
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Jan 16, 2023 05:05
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NikkolasKing posted:I never got the Freedom Ending but I don't disagree with what you're saying. That's why folks characterize all Reason endings as Law endings. Chiaki sounds the most Chaotic but her minions are angels. Hard disagree that all the Reasons are law-aligned, I just think Nocturne has a better understanding of what the conflict should look like. Even in most of the other games, Law and Chaos both have you essentially choosing a demonic sponsor (again, lucifer being the chaos rep in a lot of these is what throws people off). Neutral is generally about rejecting the idea that you have to do that, and letting humanity make it's own choice, for better or for worse. NikkolasKing posted:Of course, if the Conception is simply the whim of the Great Will, Lucifer's plan in TDE seems excessive. This is kind of a problem you have In IVA, too. Where does the will of an all powerful god end and the universe itself begin? Can you remove the former and live happily in the latter? Dagda and Lucifer say no. You have to burn the whole thing down to know true freedom. The ending monologue of the Freedom ending is what justifies TDE. Lucifer correctly notes that you've freed the world, but that in doing so you're just repeating the event that caused the Great Will to enforce the Conception in the first place, which it will do, eventually. TDE takes this to it's natural conclusion: every world must be free forever, and war against the Great Will is the only option to ensure that. Accepting the Great Will as all powerful is accepting it's own propaganda.
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Jan 16, 2023 05:23
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studio mujahideen posted:Hard disagree that all the Reasons are law-aligned, I just think Nocturne has a better understanding of what the conflict should look like. Even in most of the other games, Law and Chaos both have you essentially choosing a demonic sponsor (again, lucifer being the chaos rep in a lot of these is what throws people off). Neutral is generally about rejecting the idea that you have to do that, and letting humanity make it's own choice, for better or for worse. Can't you war with the Great Will without obliterating existence first? This is teh central hang-up and why people prefer Freedom. Rejecting the tyrannical rule of God is great! But killing everyone to do it is...not. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 05:43 on Jan 16, 2023 |
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Jan 16, 2023 05:40
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studio mujahideen posted:Hard disagree that all the Reasons are law-aligned, I just think Nocturne has a better understanding of what the conflict should look like. Even in most of the other games, Law and Chaos both have you essentially choosing a demonic sponsor (again, lucifer being the chaos rep in a lot of these is what throws people off). Neutral is generally about rejecting the idea that you have to do that, and letting humanity make it's own choice, for better or for worse. And also, all the endings, but especially Freedom and TDE, show that as powerful and scary as the forces of Law and Chaos are and can be, they fold in comparison to Humanity, ultimately. Both in terms of raw strength, willpower, and ultimately the capacity to do both good and evil. Repeatedly we've seen in SMT games we go beyond Law and Chaos in all regards. Strange Journey and Redux have endings show us as better and worse than the forces of law and chaos in multiple endings for each side. The conception isn't the problem, the people perpetuating it are, because they are the ones enabling such action and the ones that can ultimately reject it or destroy it. I mean SMT 4, 4A, 5, SJ all take this entirely out of thematics and subtext and make it the text of the narratives at large.
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Jan 16, 2023 05:42
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Gaius Marius posted:I don't think so, it's too bad that guy rocks lol
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Jan 16, 2023 11:37
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NikkolasKing posted:Can't you war with the Great Will without obliterating existence first? This is teh central hang-up and why people prefer Freedom. Rejecting the tyrannical rule of God is great! But killing everyone to do it is...not. The world has already been destroyed. Freedom is just using Kagutsuchi's power to buy it more time before the Great Will comes in and crushes it, with no one having the power to stop it. The only person killing everyone is, again, the Great Will. It offering you a chance to undo it's murders by accepting it as all-powerful doesn't make you responsible. It's also made clear that our world isn't the only world, and well, nobody's free until everybody's free, buddy
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Jan 16, 2023 12:12
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studio mujahideen posted:The world has already been destroyed. Freedom is just using Kagutsuchi's power to buy it more time before the Great Will comes in and crushes it, with no one having the power to stop it. The only person killing everyone is, again, the Great Will. It offering you a chance to undo it's murders by accepting it as all-powerful doesn't make you responsible. Out of curiosity, have you played Devil Survivor 2? A few pages ago now we talked about the ethics of Meritocracy or Egalitarianism because most of humanity is dead so it's not strictly brainwashing to recreate them differently. I think it's roughly analogous to Nocturne, especially since it even has a "reset button" Neutral Ending like Freedom where everyone is alive and happy again and Yamato/Ronaldo could be seen as Reasons. I don't necessarily disagree with your argument, just don't har many moral defenses of TDE. So I was interested if you favor any other non-standard endings in SMT.
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Jan 16, 2023 13:48
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I picked Freedom because gently caress Lucifer, gently caress Kagatsuchi, I just want my shirt back.
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Jan 16, 2023 13:50
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Funky Valentine posted:I picked Freedom because gently caress Lucifer, gently caress Kagatsuchi, I just want my shirt back. i did both tde and freedom and while i think tde is def more metal + the whole destroying the cycle thing, i kind of prefer freedom because the main chars all get another chance and its uplifting 
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Jan 17, 2023 01:28
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NikkolasKing posted:Out of curiosity, have you played Devil Survivor 2? A few pages ago now we talked about the ethics of Meritocracy or Egalitarianism because most of humanity is dead so it's not strictly brainwashing to recreate them differently. I think it's roughly analogous to Nocturne, especially since it even has a "reset button" Neutral Ending like Freedom where everyone is alive and happy again and Yamato/Ronaldo could be seen as Reasons. I mean, I also haven't heard many moral defenses of TDE, but that seems to me to be because TDE being morally right is self-evident the moment you agree that the Conception is a hosed-up thing to do, and doubly so if you interpret the Freedom ending as the Demi-Fiend losing his power. Especially since, as noted: studio mujahideen posted:The world has already been destroyed. Freedom is just using Kagutsuchi's power to buy it more time before the Great Will comes in and crushes it, with no one having the power to stop it. The only person killing everyone is, again, the Great Will. It offering you a chance to undo it's murders by accepting it as all-powerful doesn't make you responsible. TDE is just morally right in the same way donating all your excess money to charity is right, in that it's also a real big ask and failing to do so doesn't make you a monster.
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Jan 17, 2023 01:46
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Einander posted:I mean, I also haven't heard many moral defenses of TDE, but that seems to me to be because TDE being morally right is self-evident the moment you agree that the Conception is a hosed-up thing to do, and doubly so if you interpret the Freedom ending as the Demi-Fiend losing his power. Especially since, as noted: Denying everybody a chance at life again is morally questionable. They might already be dead, but they COULD be alive again if you didn't blow everything up forever. That obviously gives people pause. I suppose we should also mention this is Lucifer's propaganda we'er buying. He's hardly a super trustworthy, impartial figure in all this. Doubting him is another legitimate reason to reject TDE.
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Jan 17, 2023 03:33
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TDE is the most badass and thus the only valid option.
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Jan 17, 2023 03:38
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Einander posted:Existentialism fundamentally exists within the context of an atheistic viewpoint.  ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
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Jan 17, 2023 04:43
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Ibram Gaunt posted:TDE is the most badass and thus the only valid option. this and also as has now been shown, the objectively correct option
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Jan 17, 2023 04:44
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but what if u want ur former pals and teach to be happy again...... what comes, after destroying the great will in tde
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Jan 17, 2023 04:47
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Stux posted:
this dude never scored
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Jan 17, 2023 04:52
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Booky posted:but what if u want ur former pals and teach to be happy again...... what comes, after destroying the great will in tde play smt5
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Jan 17, 2023 04:55
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Stux posted:
Personally I consider Christian Existentialism a separate thing because believing in the Christian god specifically seriously messes with the whole "existence precedes essence" concept, but taxonomy is complicated and I know that's not a majority position!
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Jan 17, 2023 07:16
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devil survivor 2 is different in my mind because we don't have any other options. its like if kagutsuchi was the top of the chain. anguished one ftwNikkolasKing posted:Denying everybody a chance at life again is morally questionable. They might already be dead, but they COULD be alive again if you didn't blow everything up forever. That obviously gives people pause. if you feel that the freedom ending makes you 'responsible' for bringing everyone back to life, then it also means you're responsible for everyone dying once the great will reimposes the Conception, or something like it. you just won't be around to suffer! consider that instead the great will is responsible for every single ending other than TDE. choosing tde is the only choice that involves not using the great wills power (via kagutsuchi) to achieve your goals. only choice you make that relies on using the power you've fought to gain. lucifer hasn't killed every single person in the world multiple times. id say that makes him infinitely more trustworthy than the great will. also, most importantly, Ibram Gaunt posted:TDE is the most badass and thus the only valid option.
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Jan 17, 2023 07:50
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NikkolasKing posted:Denying everybody a chance at life again is morally questionable. They might already be dead, but they COULD be alive again if you didn't blow everything up forever. That obviously gives people pause. That feels more like a judgement based on knowing all the outcomes and if we're talking about making a moral choice I think we have to put ourselves in the place of the Demi-Fiend. The DF doesn't know what the consequences of his actions will be. From his perspective the Freedom ending comes out of nowhere, he may not have even realized that was an option. With the exception of the neutral ending which results from violence without a purpose, from the in-universe perspective all paths appear to be equally moral. Edit: Also, what's the moral implication of allowing yourself to be defeated at the very beginning of the game? Or to a friend? That's a moral quagmire all in itself. RillAkBea fucked around with this message at 09:43 on Jan 17, 2023 |
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Jan 17, 2023 09:35
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RillAkBea posted:That feels more like a judgement based on knowing all the outcomes and if we're talking about making a moral choice I think we have to put ourselves in the place of the Demi-Fiend. The DF doesn't know what the consequences of his actions will be. From his perspective the Freedom ending comes out of nowhere, he may not have even realized that was an option. With the exception of the neutral ending which results from violence without a purpose, from the in-universe perspective all paths appear to be equally moral. I went TDE in my first run precisely because not all endings are presented as moral. Quite frankly, I agree with Gaius on this matter. Lucifer via the Lady in Black pushes their agenda and mission far more consistently than the Reason bearers do. They lovingly detail how everything about the current system is poo poo and the only moral thing to do is smash it to pieces. Chiaki, Isamu, and Hikawa are all just different flavors of wrong. But they also poo poo talk Aradia, Takao's god, the god of freedom. His criticisms of them is far less substantial. Moreover, if the narrative pushes TDE, pre-TDE, Freedom was the obviously preferred route. Takao is always presented in a super sympathetic light. She's who introduces you to the game, she's the reason you survive the Conception, you climb a tower to rescue her from being tortured... Unless you go Hikawa, you're always on good terms with her from start to finish. And while she "failed", her god is Aradia, the one you choose if you wanna reject the three bad choices and bring everybody back to life.
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Jan 17, 2023 14:05
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I chose TDE because I wanted to fight the secret boss at the end 
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Jan 17, 2023 14:32
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Einander posted:Personally I consider Christian Existentialism a separate thing because believing in the Christian god specifically seriously messes with the whole "existence precedes essence" concept, but taxonomy is complicated and I know that's not a majority position! yeah because its loving stupid and doesnt make any sense
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Jan 17, 2023 14:35
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yeah i know most people consider elephants to be mammals but for me personally? i just get "bird" vibes you know
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Jan 17, 2023 14:36
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Stux posted:yeah i know most people consider elephants to be mammals but for me personally? i just get "bird" vibes you know
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Jan 17, 2023 14:47
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Smirking_Serpent posted:I chose TDE because I wanted to fight the secret boss at the end Yup
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Jan 17, 2023 14:48
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RillAkBea posted:Edit: Also, what's the moral implication of allowing yourself to be defeated at the very beginning of the game? Or to a friend? That's a moral quagmire all in itself. Yeah, haha, “allowing”
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Jan 17, 2023 14:52
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Stux posted:yeah i know most people consider elephants to be mammals but for me personally? i just get "bird" vibes you know Lady bird vibes?
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Jan 17, 2023 14:54
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i branched my save at the TDE cutoff so i could go TDE -> Freedom
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Jan 18, 2023 01:58
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