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And on top of all that, the gear from the Ivalice raids is ugly and undyeable, so there's no reason to actually do the raids anymore outside of the Bozja unlock.
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Feb 18, 2023 11:57
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As a fan of FFT, I was doing a lot of "hashtag not my ramza" on the front end, and complaining about the faithfully-ported music, which was fitting for the paced, tactical battles in FFT but completely inappropriate for the bombastic, hectic raid battles. Rabanastre was okay, it was kind of nice seeing the FFXII Lucavi again, though the last two bosses didn't fit the aesthetic and I would've liked to just see more Lucavi (Even if we did already get Queklain in Mhach). Ridorana I really liked, especially the math fight (80% "Hey, it's my second-favorite party member", 20% "oh, I need my brain now, neat") though again the last boss didn't really fit. Orbonne actually brought it all home and wrapped things up in a way my nostalgic rear end felt good about ("Ooh, it's my third, fourth, and fifth favorite party members. Where the heck is Beowulf?"). So the fights are great, but the story is just a massive pile of verbiage trying to recap the entirety of FFT and a bit of XII and fit them into this world, and it only partially succeeds and completely ignores making any of the characters likable in the process. I completely understand if anyone wants to skip the Ivalice cutscenes, you're actually not missing anything in regards to why you're fighting any of these big dudes.
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Feb 18, 2023 12:15
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Ivalice suffers from being a blend of not just one, but two games since it uses the Tactics storyline as its historical basis, but also FFXII's storyline is currently happening in FFXIV's version of Dalmasca. So any cutscene skippers would be given the sudden surprise of Fran is suddenly here with the implication of Ashe having faked her death and is now the rebel leader just like in FFXII. That whole implication would mostly be picked up by people familiar with FFXII's plot since the game never actually shows Ashe on camera. Meanwhile, FFXIV's version of Tactics takes a more broad strokes approach since it recharacterizes Delita to a degree, and obviously the fates of Ramza and crew changed from their original version. Personally, the broad strokes version worked for me mostly cause I only knew the outline of Tactic's storyline without knowing the deeper details so I was vaguely able to piece together FFXIV's version without getting too bothered about the changed details, but generally the story is hard to follow without having some awareness of the original game (and also Matsuno's writing in general). Nier technically actually suffers from this problem too, where a lot of what happens in its raid, you'd only understand more if you were already familiar with both Nier and Drakengard, but also Nier's writing has always been kinda obfuscating even in its original game so it's easier to accept Nier not explaining itself in FFXIV compared to Ivalice.
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Feb 18, 2023 12:25
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Funnily enough, I think Nier somewhat avoids Obvious Crossover Syndrome by going absolutely all in on Obvious Crossover Syndrome. This is an explicitly alien conflict that started before you and will continue after you. You won't understand a goddamn thing that's going on and you'll like it you little bitch-rear end Warrior of Light.
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Feb 18, 2023 12:51
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My bun is Literally from Rabanastre and even I do not enjoy the plot for the raids. Mostly because having not played FFT or FFXII the plot is just completely obtuse to me, and the personality of FFXIV Razma is not exactly endearing. I have a bit of a soft spot for Mikoto because she’s my Au Ra’s NPC twin, but then Bojza kinda ruined that for me so… I also don’t know how I feel about Nier to the point of not being able to decide if I think my WoLs canonically did it or not, mostly because I’m not entirely sure if it’s canon to FFXIV or not. Realistically the answer is yes, but it feels so aggressively in its own little continuity bubble. But in some ways I almost prefer that to Ivalice, where it just feels awkwardly shoved into the world of FFXIV wholesale from its home game with very few adjustments.
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Feb 18, 2023 13:08
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I am admittedly the target audience for the Nier raids and not the Ivalice ones (though I do have familiarity with Tactics/FF12) but I felt that the "you're not going to have a drat clue what is happening unless you play Nier and Drakengard and you're going to like it" approach just worked better for it overall. I think it helps that IC absolutely nobody understands why anything is happening either, and it doesn't linger much on the crossover things that gently caress off into the void after the raid story wraps up even while the raid story is actually happening. The emotional focus is on your gaggle of functional alcoholic engineers, not the space robots, and while I could see exactly why someone would absolutely hate the Nier raids at every step of the way I felt the approach they took there just worked better for an alliance raid series. E: Granted, I also just really like the dwarves as a whole and love every second the game puts them on-screen. So I'm even more the target audience than usual.
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Feb 18, 2023 13:25
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What I found hilarious about the Nier raids is apparently there were going to be two endings, depending on which dwarf the majority of players on a server picked in the first part. The problem is, every data center picked the same dwarf, so that extra ending was completely wasted and nobody knows what it is.
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Feb 18, 2023 13:40
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CT is also largely lifted wholesale from FFIII’s backstory, it’s just that it’s much more throughly integrated into FFXIV’s own unique backstory which makes the references cute instead of “I understand nothing that’s happening because I never played these games”. Well, and also G’raha Tia is a much more enjoyable raid protagonist than Ramza bas Lexentale.
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Feb 18, 2023 13:56
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Yeah G'raha is an original character compared to Discount Ramza (now with more insufferable personality!) and the fact that the game actually tries to build a rapport with the WoL and G'raha Tia instead of just foisting you on Ramza and telling you to deal with it makes all the difference in the world.
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Feb 18, 2023 14:26
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As an every cutscene enjoyer Ivalice exposition dumps were far, far, far, far, far too dry and dull and making Ramza an rear end in a top hat didn't help. Not an entertaining rear end in a top hat, I loved every part of the Weapon storyline. I did appreciate a bit what they tried to do in writing "FFT long after FFT resolved" and the true history of the real Ramza and Delita and some closure that wasn't entirely bad. I developed a Pavlovian aversion to going back to the airship between raid wings though. The wine bit was hilarious and well done at least, even if the entire joke there is that that also went on for far too long! Always happy to see the rare times FF14 goes psycho mode on the humor. Nier raids worked really well and I say that as someone who hasn't gotten around to playing Nier or Draken games at all yet. Super obvious crossover, sure, but they did a pretty fine job of covering their rear end(it takes place in a forgotten corner of a destroyed world full of intense danger and purely isolationist factions and you can only travel to this world by extraordinary circumstances so it isn't like "duhhh why doesn't X faction go pick up a bunch of free alien tech?") and the dwarf storyline was pretty good even if you didn't already like Nier. The 2P twist works well for a totally blind crossover enjoyer too.
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Feb 18, 2023 14:55
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There's a flashback cutscene in the quest before you unlock Orbonne that goes on for like 15 minutes and is completely impenetrable if you didn't play FFT.
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Feb 18, 2023 15:25
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"Backhand Ramza" is second only to "Hug Scions" on my list of things I'm mad the game never lets me do in cutscenes.
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Feb 18, 2023 15:30
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you shouldn't want to beat up children
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Feb 18, 2023 17:19
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The crystal tower is a great example of what ffxiv does well, taking an inspiration from a previous FF game but then integrating it into an original ffxiv story which fits within the existing world. Nier and ivalice just attempt to fully shoehorn the lore and characters from their respective games right into FF and it feels weird. As previously said it's almost less bad with nier as it's so out there that it's basically non-cannon, but ivalice really tries to drop the setting right inside the existing ffxiv world and fails.
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Feb 18, 2023 17:24
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Honestly the Ivalice raid series falls flat for me because they expect me to believe Delita was anything other than a scum sucking snake piece of poo poo. All that time wasted and your big reveal is that in XIV the dickhead was actually not a dickhead....that blows.
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Feb 18, 2023 17:47
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the ivalice stuff is rough pacing-wise even for someone who wanted to go through it and get the backstory dumped at them because I sure as poo poo didn't understand a single thing that was happening in FFT's plot when I beat it back in like 2003 and wanted ff14 to explain it to me which it also failed to do
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Feb 18, 2023 18:08
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a cartoon duck posted:you shouldn't want to beat up children Mainwaring posted:The crystal tower is a great example of what ffxiv does well, taking an inspiration from a previous FF game but then integrating it into an original ffxiv story which fits within the existing world.
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Feb 18, 2023 18:09
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Shinjobi posted:Honestly the Ivalice raid series falls flat for me because they expect me to believe Delita was anything other than a scum sucking snake piece of poo poo. That's my main complaint! I actually think that Delita is a little bit better than that but one of the great parts of FFT is trying to figure out if everything he does is due to circumstance and opportunity, as revenge for his sister, is he just using Ramza as a pawn or does he really care about him, etc. He was a good character because he was morally gray and hard to read, but the wrap-up of the raid cuts all that out and pushes that Delita was really really good all along and he did it all for Ramza, which is really really dumb. Also in retrospect Bozja is a better storyline but it still has its issues. At the very least, its worth unlocking the first bit of it because the first solo duty is really good. Feldegast42 fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Feb 18, 2023 |
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Feb 18, 2023 18:34
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Feldegast42 posted:That's my main complaint! I actually think that Delita is a little bit better than that but one of the great parts of FFT is trying to figure out if everything he does is due to circumstance and opportunity, as revenge for his sister, is he just using Ramza as a pawn or does he really care about him, etc. He was a good character because he was morally gray and hard to read, but the wrap-up of the raid cuts all that out and pushes that Delita was really really good all along and he did it all for Ramza, which is really really dumb.
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Feb 18, 2023 18:38
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GilliamYaeger posted:Between that and the trainwreck that was Misija, it really makes me feel like Matsuno's seriously lost his touch. All the stuff going on in the background of Bozja was great (except needing to have the entire finale happen offscreen in the notes instead of in-game because of extremely poor planning) but the stuff it actually focused on was pretty terrible. Yeah, I agree -- I love Matsuno but his style of writing just doesn't work here. Although I still wonder if the pandemic threw enough of a wrench into things where they had to cut out a lot of the last part of it.
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Feb 18, 2023 18:39
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Feldegast42 posted:That's my main complaint! I actually think that Delita is a little bit better than that but one of the great parts of FFT is trying to figure out if everything he does is due to circumstance and opportunity, as revenge for his sister, is he just using Ramza as a pawn or does he really care about him, etc. He was a good character because he was morally gray and hard to read, but the wrap-up of the raid cuts all that out and pushes that Delita was really really good all along and he did it all for Ramza, which is really really dumb. Just to be clear: I LIKE that Delita is an absolute piece of poo poo. I think the story is better for it, given the whole backdrop of "behold the true story of what happened here: this rag to riches king was a walking pile of dookie actually." It owned.
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Feb 18, 2023 18:46
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Feldegast42 posted:Yeah, I agree -- I love Matsuno but his style of writing just doesn't work here. Although I still wonder if the pandemic threw enough of a wrench into things where they had to cut out a lot of the last part of it.
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Feb 18, 2023 18:49
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I do wish there was quest where the WoL explains what happened in the Neir raids to a Scion, because even with all the bullshit they get up to I have a feeling a few of the Scions would find it hard to believe.
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Feb 18, 2023 19:05
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Fights are pretty fun
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Feb 18, 2023 21:55
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Shinjobi posted:Honestly the Ivalice raid series falls flat for me because they expect me to believe Delita was anything other than a scum sucking snake piece of poo poo. As someone who hasn't played FFT, Ivalice falls flat for me because the big reveal is that someone I've never heard of was actually not a dickhead (also this reveal is conveyed by me sitting in an airship while someone who is a dickhead tries to summarize the plot of an entire game at me)
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Feb 18, 2023 22:32
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The Nier raids are just also grounded by the village of Dwarves that you actually do care about. The Dig Site Chief is such a better character than anyone in the Tactics raids and it's not even close.
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Feb 18, 2023 22:42
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PlasticAutomaton posted:The Nier raids are just also grounded by the village of Dwarves that you actually do care about. The Dig Site Chief is such a better character than anyone in the Tactics raids and it's not even close. Lali-onlyenjoyablecharacter-ho! (Ok I liked the twins just fine too.)
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Feb 18, 2023 22:50
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PlasticAutomaton posted:The Nier raids are just also grounded by the village of Dwarves that you actually do care about. The Dig Site Chief is such a better character than anyone in the Tactics raids and it's not even close. It's true, the Nier raids handled the crossover nature of it so much better. The raids were kept almost completely separate from the plot, so you could go enjoy the spectacle and it didn't even matter if you'd never heard of the Nier games. Also, FFXIV and Nier/Drakengard both explicitly have dimension hopping, so it works perfectly fine as this weird alien invasion out of nowhere. And it means that it's doubly separated from the base setting of Eorzea, since it's happening in a different shard. It's not like there's a risk of the Galreans getting their hand on YorHa fighter jets. I'm a big fan of both series, and I also hated the Ivalice cutscenes. It felt so much less... elegant, than how they integrated FFIII into the world. And it sucks because like the idea of "these are some sympathetic Garlean civilians running a theater company" is really interesting on its own, but they do absolutely nothing with that aspect of it (except the wine sidequest, which is hilarious).
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Feb 19, 2023 00:52
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a cartoon duck posted:you shouldn't want to beat up children wrong The actual Ivalice raids were fantastic, and the story you get from the raids is also really good, but most of the quests that lead up to them and tie them together were dry as dirt. I'm a huge FFT fan and I loved how they put Ivalice into the world but how they presented it in the quests for that storyline was extremely dull in large part because one of the main focal characters was just so genuinely and intentionally irritating.
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Feb 19, 2023 01:12
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One generally shouldn’t beat up children but Razma would be a better person if the WoL gave him a swirly. That means we should have been able to.
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Feb 19, 2023 01:13
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Feb 19, 2023 01:24
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Just stuff Ramza in a locker
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Feb 19, 2023 01:25
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Foreshadowing the WoL getting integrated into the G-Warrior, Graze Ein style.
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Feb 19, 2023 01:55
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Electric Phantasm posted:Just stuff Ramza in a locker Push him off the airship instead
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Feb 19, 2023 01:57
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Someone pointed out that Ramza has a mouth on him for a Garlean that's only at B-rank.
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Feb 19, 2023 02:02
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Khizan posted:And on top of all that, the gear from the Ivalice raids is ugly and undyeable, so there's no reason to actually do the raids anymore outside of the Bozja unlock. Also I object to this, the caster gear from Orbonne is great. And it’s the only good set tbf.
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Feb 19, 2023 02:41
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I want like four or five different Ivalice sets, primarily for nostalgia value (And so I can pretend anything like Calculator is ever coming back), but it's interesting looking at what I actually win Greed for and thinking about using it. Oracle gloves and shoes will go great on BLU once it's at cap, Holy Knight chest is a better option for "stylish coat" than Sky Pirate Healing, even though it's a bodice. I'm a little sad that the Rabanastre ninja set is just a recolor of the samurai set, but if I wanted an FFT ninja outfit I'd just use Rainbow Scouting, anyway.
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Feb 19, 2023 04:45
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The tank gear from Orbonne is great and goes perfectly with the Postmoogle cap.Funky Valentine posted:Someone pointed out that Ramza has a mouth on him for a Garlean that's only at B-rank. He does but to be fair to him, C is the highest you can go without working for the government FuturePastNow fucked around with this message at 05:34 on Feb 19, 2023 |
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Feb 19, 2023 05:27
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Ivalician Holy Knight armour is the core of my main pld glam.
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Feb 19, 2023 06:34
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I do wish they were dyeable, but I like all the Ivalician stuff. Especially Balthier's and Agrias' outfit.
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Feb 19, 2023 06:37
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