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Xiahou Dun posted:You basically just said, "Hey, this is a good cause, so why don't you use some bad faith arguments to promote it?" Because I actually care about my positions. I don't believe I said that actually. E: clarity I agree we should wait for the report on the train crash before we say what caused the train crash I don't think we need to wait for the report on the train crash to push for better regulation because the hazards from Trump’s deregulation and Biden's strikebreaking exist whether they caused this particular crash or not. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 01:36 on Feb 19, 2023 |
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Feb 19, 2023 01:16
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Feb 19, 2023 01:17
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VitalSigns posted:I don't believe I said that actually. I’ve been talking about about the sad state of the US rail system my entire adult life. At no point did I say we shouldn’t work for it and this is a dumb straw man. The conversation isn’t about regulation in general, it’s specifically about this derailment. You edited out me saying that I didn’t want to use this as part of my larger argument for infrastructure regulation because if that turns out to not be the root cause it weakens it. Your clarification edit was to summarize my point back in a snarky way. Are you even reading?
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Feb 19, 2023 01:47
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Xiahou Dun posted:I’ve been talking about about the sad state of the US rail system my entire adult life. At no point did I say we shouldn’t work for it and this is a dumb straw man. I didn't say you did. I was just being careful to distinguish two different issues which seemed like they may have been getting mashed together. Should we make up what we think caused the crash while the investigation is incomplete (No, imo) Do we need to wait until we find out what caused the crash to talk about regulation, braking systems, workers' hours and time off because doing so now would be taking advantage of a tragedy to push an agenda? (also no) If you agree with both of these statements, then great.
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Feb 19, 2023 01:56
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VitalSigns posted:I didn't say you did. I was just being careful to distinguish two different issues which seemed like they may have been getting mashed together. Welcome to what DV and I are saying.
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Feb 19, 2023 02:02
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It is perfectly reasonable to believe with a high degree of confidence that loosened safety regulations may have been a factor contributing to an industrial accident. I seriously feel like I'm being gaslit about this.
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Feb 19, 2023 02:20
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Fister Roboto posted:It is perfectly reasonable to believe with a high degree of confidence that loosened safety regulations may have been a factor contributing to an industrial accident. Yeah but that's never going to be a good position to take in a debate, because as you can see if you say that it makes it easy for someone to pounce on your lack of definitive proof, and now the conversation has shifted from "what the gently caress how can they get away with not classifying the car carrying dangerous chemicals as hazardous materials" to your personal character. You said you think it caused the crash but you can't know that for sure, so now you're a liar, a bad faith actor, and on and on and on, it's a feeding frenzy. Fortunately you don't have to actually claim that caused the crash. You can just say it's hosed up, and when someone demands proof that classifying the cargo as hazardous would have prevented the crash, you can just say it doesn't matter it's hosed up anyways even if it didn't cause the crash. Because it is!
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Feb 19, 2023 02:34
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Discendo Vox posted:You asserted, directly, "the root problems that caused it to happen in the first place", following from a twitter cartoon that similarly just asserted them. Don't do that. This is an important point for D&D itself. There is a key difference between saying "deregulation probably had a hand in this accident because it''s led to similar accidents in the past," and "this accident was caused by deregulation." One is honest and the other isn't fully. Whether that makes the messaging more effective and is therefore worth it in the broader political arena is a topic for discussion and ultimately a choice one must make. But in D&D, you're expected to be completely good faith and precise at all times, so you should mean exactly what you say.
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Feb 19, 2023 06:32
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It does not materially matter whether the mechanical cause of the incident was faulty storage of hazardous chemicals, metal fatigue in a crucial piece of equipment, a trains man falling asleep at the wheel or whatever else. This happened due to insufficient regulation, because if the train had been operating under a sufficient degree of regulation, the accident either would not have been happened at all or it would have been greatly mitigated by the appropriate failsafe mechanism.
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Feb 19, 2023 06:59
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:It does not materially matter whether the mechanical cause of the incident was faulty storage of hazardous chemicals, metal fatigue in a crucial piece of equipment, a trains man falling asleep at the wheel or whatever else. You are literally assigning something a cause based on your tummy feels. There should be more regulated transportation infrastructure because it’s fundamental part of the public good in having a society. You’re using lazy thinking to justify an unnecessary cause celebré. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 19, 2023 07:12
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So what's the alternative reason? Terrorism?
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Feb 19, 2023 07:42
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Vib Rib posted:So what's the alternative reason? Terrorism? Most likely it’s one of a couple hundred specific failure points that could be described as poor maintenance or standards. Any of which will help guide further regulations. But it totally could be some weird rear end poo poo too. The point is that it’s a public policy matter that is actively killing people. Are you telling me you care enough to get angry but not enough to think long enough to care what the actual cause is for sure? No I don’t magically know the answer. That’s the point.
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Feb 19, 2023 07:55
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Vib Rib posted:So what's the alternative reason? Terrorism? Accidents do, in fact, happen, and no amount of regulation actually prevents all accidents from ever occurring While deregulation is bad and contemptible and safety should be a top priority etc etc etc none of that means that this specific accident would have been prevented if deregulation had been prevented
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Feb 19, 2023 07:56
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Mmhm, mhm. Very good points, but have you considered the possibility that Democrats are just waging all out chemical warfare against red states? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 19, 2023 07:58
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Lol
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Feb 19, 2023 08:11
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Xiahou Dun posted:Most likely it’s one of a couple hundred specific failure points that could be described as poor maintenance or standards. Any of which will help guide further regulations. But it totally could be some weird rear end poo poo too. If we know about failure points shouldn't we want to fix them regardless of whether they caused the accident or not? Like what's the harm if we fix 100 things and then later it turns out only 99 of them contributed to the accident, do we go "oh darn we fixed too many things, we might have prevented more accidents than we strictly needed to in response to this horrible accident". I just don't get the insistence on waiting.
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Feb 19, 2023 08:33
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VitalSigns posted:If we know about failure points shouldn't we want to fix them regardless of whether they caused the accident or not? I swear to god dude, you really gotta learn to read.
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Feb 19, 2023 08:37
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After a storm we can say, this will be more common as the climate changes, even though we can't attribute any given event to climate change. After an industrial accident we can say, this will be more common under deregulation, even if the cause is not necessarily attributed to it. We don't have to be able to attribute either of those events to a specific cause to make those statements. We know they are more likely under the relevant conditions, and we get to be mad about decisions that make them more likely.
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Feb 19, 2023 08:47
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Xiahou Dun posted:I swear to god dude, you really gotta learn to read. Idk it seems like people are pointing out actual problems and you keep saying well hang on you don't know that actually caused the accident, but why is that important, even problems that haven't caused accidents yet ought to be fixed right. Maybe that's not how you're intending to come across but like that's how it sounds. Like if what you mean is "hey let's fix all the deregulation and union busting we know exists, but don't lose sight of the fact that there may be more problems we haven't uncovered yet" then you should say it like that VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 08:50 on Feb 19, 2023 |
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Feb 19, 2023 08:47
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VitalSigns posted:Idk it seems like people are pointing out actual problems and you keep saying well hang on you don't know that actually caused the accident, but why is that important, even problems that haven't caused accidents yet ought to be fixed right. I have said that’s my position to you several times.
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Feb 19, 2023 09:04
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A.F. Branco Al Goodwyn  John Deering  Michael Ramirez  Mike Luckovich  Steve Breen  Tom Stiglich 
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Feb 19, 2023 11:49
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Skios posted:
Wanna know how many variations of 'how do we shoot down the president, Joe biden' he tried to get past the editors before giving in
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Feb 19, 2023 12:03
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Okay. How the gently caress is an algorithmic bot that regurgitates essays showing bias. I mean I guess it wasn’t trained on incoherent screeds about culture war bullshit. But what?
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Feb 19, 2023 14:15
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It's because reality still has a liberal bias
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Feb 19, 2023 14:18
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Also isn't it funded by Microsoft, owned by globalist scumbag Bill "Kill Everyone" Gates
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Feb 19, 2023 14:19
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Xiahou Dun posted:I have said that’s my position to you several times. All right, well the way you write isn't very clear, it's very condescending and hostile to people who are also concerned about real problems of deregulation and union busting, and you keep strawmanning them as not wanting to know the cause of the accident, like it's so unnecessarily hostile it makes me go "wait what is he saying" Maybe I'm just an idiot and everyone else understands you just fine, but it kinda seems like your intent is being misunderstood by others too not just me and that might be why, just saying. I mean you've been arguing with people for pages but nobody seems to really be disagreeing. We all want an end to deregulation and union busting, we all want to see better safety regulations, we all want to know the cause of the accident to help guide regulations. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 14:53 on Feb 19, 2023 |
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Feb 19, 2023 14:28
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Skios posted:Steve Breen So legalize weed.
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Feb 19, 2023 14:41
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M.c.P posted:Okay. My guess is it's because it's programmed to tell them off for trying to get it to say Nazi poo poo.
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Feb 19, 2023 14:45
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Xiahou Dun posted:You are literally assigning something a cause based on your tummy feels. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 19, 2023 15:15
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:So legalize weed. It's legal in California isn't it? That is supposed to be Newsome on the left, isn't it?
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Feb 19, 2023 15:15
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Cloud Potato posted:
Poor Darrowby will never recover
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Feb 19, 2023 15:22
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:It does not materially matter whether the mechanical cause of the incident was faulty storage of hazardous chemicals, metal fatigue in a crucial piece of equipment, a trains man falling asleep at the wheel or whatever else. Sufficient regulation meaning accidents don't happen or are mitigated by failsafes is a questionable definition, because no such regulatory regime has ever existed. Not in the pre-Reagan Keynesian United States, not in social democratic northern Europe, nor even in the Soviet Union. There are simply so many human and mechanical factors that can go wrong that they are likely to continue to do so even under perfect laws. It also inadvertently shifts the blame away from deregulation by implying that every regulatory system is faulty whether it's been gutted or not.
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Feb 19, 2023 15:54
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Ok but we might well find that sufficient regulation would have prevented this particular accident, even if preventing all accidents is impossible. And even if this turns out to be an unpreventable act of God, letting the railroad spend money on stock buybacks instead of modern braking systems is probably going to cause an accident eventually anyway VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Feb 19, 2023 |
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Feb 19, 2023 16:03
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VitalSigns posted:Ok but we might well find that sufficient regulation would have prevented this particular accident, even if preventing all accidents is impossible. I was not implying otherwise, and a corollary of having no specific reason to believe it was caused by deregulation is that we also have no specific reason to believe it was not. We can also say with certainty that it's possible, because there are specific incidents where profit motive or lack of laws have led to accidents, such as the Åsta accident.
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Feb 19, 2023 16:23
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Twelve by Pies posted:Hey, out of curiosity, what were Bennett's cartoons like when Trump took that cognitive test? But, you see, this time a Republican wants to do it to target a Democrat, and therefore... Anyway, have a couple of less terrible ones. Clay Bennett   Jeff Danziger  Lisa Benson  Lee Judge  Mike Smith  Kirk Walters  Jimmy Margulies  David M. Hitch  Drew Sheneman 
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Feb 19, 2023 17:04
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Like others have pointed out, we wouldn't be having this conversation if it was about a mass shooting or a weather disaster or a hate crime. We can say with confidence that lack of gun control leads to mass shooting. We can say with confidence that rampant fossil fuel use leads to more intense weather events. We can say with confidence that the rise of transphobic speech leads to trans people being murdered. Anyone saying something like "well we don't know that gun control would have prevented this particular mass shooting" would be laughed out of here and called a right wing troll, and rightfully so. Or "well this other country has good gun control and they had a mass shooting once". It's all just excuses for not doing anything. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 19, 2023 17:07
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idonotlikepeas posted:Anyway, have a couple of less terrible ones. No Bennett don't politicize a tragedy like this 
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Feb 19, 2023 17:22
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M.c.P posted:Okay. It should be no surprise to you that the idea is absolute nonsense The most you can say is that it has some extremely thin protections against hate speech and disinformation but they're evidently quite easy to bypass. Fundamentally, none of these "AI" actually have any sense of morality or bias
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Feb 19, 2023 17:38
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 Observer:  "Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, one year on – One year on? It was back in 2014 that Vladimir Putin’s war really began" Sunday Telegraph:  Sunday Times:  "Scotland after Nicola Sturgeon: Divided, uncertain and bereft of political heavyweights"
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Feb 19, 2023 17:48
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idonotlikepeas posted:
Just FYI, the hyper liberal marxists over at DirecTV replaced the Newsmax with a network that's run by known card carrying communist Bill O'Riley. Source: I checked it on my parent's DirecTV.
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Feb 19, 2023 18:40
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