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Berkshire Hunts posted:What makes us think that this time he’ll give us the bad rules we think we want? He's definitely going to give us the bad rules he thinks we want, but I'd rather have Demake than Essence.
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Feb 21, 2023 05:33
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I actually would like to discuss a lot of stuff in the demake, which has gone a very different way from 3e's take on the setting, sometimes in ways I agree with and sometimes in ways I don't. (In particular, I think Holden's Infernals are a major improvement and his Lunars are a dead end.) One of the main differences, to my mind, is that the demake is fairly consistent with the idea that none of the splat organizations are meant to be on a higher morality tier than the others, or more specifically, that the Silver Pact and the Bureau of Destiny aren't actually meant to be "better" than the Realm, the Deathlords, or the Thing Infernal, except in the context of specific Exalted and their actions. This is a pretty different take from where 2e and 3e went with Lunars and where 3e has been going with Sidereals, which does a pretty heavy roll-back on the corruption of the Celestial Bureaucracy.
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Feb 21, 2023 18:20
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Rand Brittain posted:Exalted Essence is probably the ugliest book Onyx Path has ever produced, which is saying something. I think between this and Thousand Blades Style (and honestly, I wasn't a big fan of the Sidereal Charmset either), I'm done with Exalted. I'm glad I finished Golden Calibration, but it's pretty clear to me that at this point anything new that gets published is going to be something I can't stand. For all its problems, I do think the lore of 3e (can I use that word unironically here?) is some of the best written and most imaginative Exalted has every had. The Sidereal draft write up of Yu-shan competes with Games of Divinity and does more to sell the location as a potential game setting. Fangs at the Gate is the most compelling (and coherent) portrayal that Lunars have ever had. Even Exigents, while failing to provide the rigorous structure for making charms that most of us wanted, made its example Exigents far more interesting than I expected. (All of this is IMO, of course.) ExEss feels like the first real let down on that front. Not that a rule book detailing the mechanics of nine distinct splat types (plus castes, plus Exigents!) should also have a comprehensive look at the setting, but it both feels out of step with 3e lore (using some outdated terminology) while also leaning heavily on the players bringing in knowledge from previous editions. Why does the Infernal charm Desert-and-Flame Endurance not function in "jungles, forests, and lush isles?" Well, that's a flavor holdover from 2e, and you'd have to know that ahead of time because the book doesn't spell it out. As a thing unto itself I think ExEss is perfectly fine (although I am fully willing to concede that it may have mechanical weakness I can't discern from the manual alone) but I'm not quite sure what it's purpose is. It's not that much of a simpler system, it doesn't really put in the work to sell the setting to newbies...
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Feb 21, 2023 19:39
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For those interested, someone has been compiling a list of charm changes between the ExEss draft and the finished copy: hereRand Brittain posted:I actually would like to discuss a lot of stuff in the demake, which has gone a very different way from 3e's take on the setting, sometimes in ways I agree with and sometimes in ways I don't. (In particular, I think Holden's Infernals are a major improvement and his Lunars are a dead end.) I'm very curious how the demake will handle Infernals. The exwod version are quite good, but they've also been modified to "fit in" with the WoD in particular ways that would make back porting them into Dynasty era Creation weird.
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Feb 21, 2023 19:49
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Schwarzwald posted:For those interested, someone has been compiling a list of charm changes between the ExEss draft and the finished copy: here It's basically the take from 2e, but with all the really gross bits from the first two chapters removed, and the Infernals' relationships with the Yozis modified to match that. The Infernal Exaltations have been adopted into the Yozi soul hierarchies, so that each Yozi experiences everything their Green Sun Princes do, and as a result they have a way more positive relationship than they did in 2e where the Exalted were just disposable pawns in a lunatic scheme. The Yozis are basically planning to let the Infernals do whatever they feel like and then claim victory. Infernals destroy Creation? Vengeance at last! Infernals establish a new Age of Dreams? Vindication! Infernals spend eternity on hookers and blow? Another body to enjoy carnal delights with is nothing to laugh and, and this one has imagination.
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Feb 21, 2023 20:05
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The Infernals are the ultimate form of escapism from the inescapable prison of Malfeas, and the Yozis are pretty familiar with escapism.
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Feb 21, 2023 20:15
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Rand Brittain posted:It's basically the take from 2e, but with all the really gross bits from the first two chapters removed, and the Infernals' relationships with the Yozis modified to match that. The Infernal Exaltations have been adopted into the Yozi soul hierarchies, so that each Yozi experiences everything their Green Sun Princes do, and as a result they have a way more positive relationship than they did in 2e where the Exalted were just disposable pawns in a lunatic scheme. All that is a massive step up, to be sure, but I'm more curious about how it'll handle their charms and such. What I read from a draft of the Solar demake charmset looked roughly like a straight back port from exwod. Doing that with certain Infernal charms, such as ones that make fomori, would lead to some very weird outcomes.
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Feb 21, 2023 20:25
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Schwarzwald posted:All that is a massive step up, to be sure, but I'm more curious about how it'll handle their charms and such. What I read from a draft of the Solar demake charmset looked roughly like a straight back port from exwod. Doing that with certain Infernal charms, such as ones that make fomori, would lead to some very weird outcomes. I assume you'd just go back to the original 2e Infernals Charm that one is based on, which turns a mortal into a first circle demon.
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Feb 21, 2023 22:24
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based on the WIP draft of Infernals I've seen it looks like that charm makes a mortal a creature of darkness and grants them (the charm user's) Essence dots of the Uncanny background (which in turn gives them a number of aspects/positive mutations equal to its rating from the standard/shared list, chosen by the charm's user but subject to some theming considerations) power level aside, imo that's a pretty clean implementation
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Feb 22, 2023 06:52
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Schwarzwald posted:For all its problems, I do think the lore of 3e (can I use that word unironically here?) is some of the best written and most imaginative Exalted has every had. The Sidereal draft write up of Yu-shan competes with Games of Divinity and does more to sell the location as a potential game setting. Fangs at the Gate is the most compelling (and coherent) portrayal that Lunars have ever had. Even Exigents, while failing to provide the rigorous structure for making charms that most of us wanted, made its example Exigents far more interesting than I expected. I broadly agree, on both points. 3e generally feels a lot more coherent as a world+setting, and without losing much of the magic that makes Exalted tick. As to Essence, it almost feels like a bit of a failed project? I think some of the mechanical stabs (this is all working off the draft) were actually pretty good and I had done similar hacks on certain things like extended actions myself. Sagacity as mentioned upstream is a way to approach Lore that might not be perfect, but is at least trying to deal with the issue. Crunching attributes and skill count is good for getting people in quick, the general framework devised for putting the splats together is actually an incredibly good tool for putting together NPCs and challenges as well, far better than the completely anemic advice in the core book. But at the same time, it feels like a loving mess and I'm not sure at the end of the day it actually made it net easier vs just moving around where the pain points are with maybe some smoothing going on. This does make me want to run a short ExEss game with friends now that I've got the nice looking pdf, but we'll see how long that feeling persists as I actually read it all.
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Feb 22, 2023 07:20
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Rand Brittain posted:Yeah, this is literally the most broken martial arts style I have ever seen in any edition. I don't even know what to say. This is such a strange claim that it made me pay ten bucks and stop lurking just to ask you: how on Earth did you come to this conclusion? 2e had several martial arts that were so broken that the only winning move was to completely ban them from ever being used. Even with the context of Exalted 3e, Thousand Blades Style is not the strongest martial art (I'd probably give the title to Righteous Devil in core) and the only thing I can see as needing to be rebalanced is the distance at which it can attack from at Essence 3. In general, the claims that it is overpowered or breaks the game in this thread are so off from what I've seen people in the Exalted community that I trust regarding balance say about it that I'm genuinely curious at to why everyone ITT came to the conclusion that its problematic on the level of Cobra Style or the infamous Obsidian Shards of Infinity Style.
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Feb 23, 2023 01:04
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Whirling posted:This is such a strange claim that it made me pay ten bucks and stop lurking just to ask you: how on Earth did you come to this conclusion? 2e had several martial arts that were so broken that the only winning move was to completely ban them from ever being used. Even with the context of Exalted 3e, Thousand Blades Style is not the strongest martial art (I'd probably give the title to Righteous Devil in core) and the only thing I can see as needing to be rebalanced is the distance at which it can attack from at Essence 3. In general, the claims that it is overpowered or breaks the game in this thread are so off from what I've seen people in the Exalted community that I trust regarding balance say about it that I'm genuinely curious at to why everyone ITT came to the conclusion that its problematic on the level of Cobra Style or the infamous Obsidian Shards of Infinity Style. I don't know 2E well enough to back up the whole of Rand's claim here, but what sticks out to me is the ranged attack you mention, the fact that a number of charms are strictly-better versions of existing Solar charms (like they'll enact the same effect, with a bonus, for fewer total motes), and the fact that it can create a scenelong short range damaging hazard that's also difficult terrain (the default rules for which are absolutely backbreaking for basically any melee combatant).
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Feb 23, 2023 01:42
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Ferrinus posted:I don't know 2E well enough to back up the whole of Rand's claim here, but what sticks out to me is the ranged attack you mention, the fact that a number of charms are strictly-better versions of existing Solar charms (like they'll enact the same effect, with a bonus, for fewer total motes), and the fact that it can create a scenelong short range damaging hazard that's also difficult terrain (the default rules for which are absolutely backbreaking for basically any melee combatant). I'll illustrate how overpowered Obsidian Shards of Infinity, even beyond the normal level of imbalance that 2e operated under, was with a single charm from it: The Mirror Does Not Lie. You pay a humble 10m, 1wp for a scene-long charm that essentially functions as a better perfect defense than anything else in that edition. So long as an attack (whether it be a daiklave, a social attack, or a mass combat attack) was seen by anyone at all, the practitioner could perfectly defend against it and then deflect it onto another target that was not the practitioner or the initial attacker. Thus, the only counter to it was the implausible scenario that everyone in the scene (attacker included) was blinded. At the very least, Obsidian Shards was a SMA, which restricted its accessibility to only the usual suspects, and was a high Essence one at that. Cobra Style, meanwhile, was a Celestial Martial Art (and thus both lower Essence and more accessible to characters) whose form charm could make perfect defenses for those that the martial artist attacked cost more (a death sentence to those opposing it in a system that favored paranoia combat), up to eight free perfect dodges in combat, and strong "counterattack" charms that weren't really counterattacks at all once you got the charm that could let you hallucinate getting attacked by someone to trigger a counterattack so you could ignore its one obvious weakness of someone just not bothering to hit you. Say what you will about Thousand Blades, but it does not approach the power of those in the slightest. Anyway, I've already contended that Flying Sword Technique is egregious (it should definitely cost far more in motes or Willpower or both to use at distance out to medium and beyond), so I'll go onto the other claims. The fact that you've have to walk around with 9m committed to get the full benefits of the Style (plus 10m for the Form and up to 5m for Artifact medium armor if you want to survive a serious fight with any Exalted opponent) generally justifies the lower mote costs of its bread-and-butter charms; a Solar may pay slightly more to use his own equivalents to Wings-of-Steel Bulwark or Thousand Blades Strike as one on an instant basis, but the Thousands Swords practitioner has already paid for it in the high commitment costs. Also, yes, it's rather hard to beat difficult terrain as a melee combatant (or at least, for those who aren't Sidereals; their Athletics charms tend to ignore terrain altogether); the downside of this is that the Thousand Wings stylist is incredibly vulnerable to ranged attacks. Many ranged charms in Solar Archery/Thrown, Lunar Dexterity, and Sidereal Archery/Thrown ignore or ameliorate cover bonuses, which are the one defensive option the Thousand Blades users have that can be used against them. Its a strong style, but so long as Flying Sword Technique is hit with a nerf bat, any ranged combatant is going to have a fairly simple time dealing with them.
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Feb 23, 2023 03:03
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You don't have to commit 9m to use the style; you have to commit 4m to use the style. The first 5m are the same 5m everyone else and their brother is going to commit in order to bring an artifact weapon to the fight with them. Even those 4m are more than refunded the first time you use a charm that adds [Arsenal] to something, especially if you're in the Form. There is only one actual drawback to Thousand Blades: you can't use Heavy armor (and that's only a drawback at all for certain defensive strategies). Nothing about Thousand Blades makes you "incredibly vulnerable" to ranged attacks. The otherwise-great post-roll defense it gives you might be inapplicable against them, if their user makes sure to enact effects that pierce cover... but if they do, guess what? They've just saved you 3m 1i. Nothing stops you from going on to use whatever defenses against ranged attacks exist in your native Brawl/Melee/Dodge/Resistance/whatever kit. You're incredibly underselling the hazard, which is going to be deal 6L every round that your enemies can't pass a difficulty 6 roll, and because you're able to kite freely (and, indeed, fly for an entire scene - Solar Athletics has to pay motes by the round to do that!) they're going to be spending between three and infinity rounds actually reaching you to hit back in the first place. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 03:53 on Feb 23, 2023 |
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Feb 23, 2023 03:49
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Ferrinus posted:You don't have to commit 9m to use the style; you have to commit 4m to use the style. The first 5m are the same 5m everyone else and their brother is going to commit in order to bring an artifact weapon to the fight with them. Even those 4m are more than refunded the first time you use a charm that adds [Arsenal] to something, especially if you're in the Form. There is only one actual drawback to Thousand Blades: you can't use Heavy armor (and that's only a drawback at all for certain defensive strategies). I've never found hazards in this system to be very frightening. The difficult terrain is more intimidating than something that takes about 12 dice on average to beat without taking a single bit of damage and will do chip damage if it does land since the damage dice it rolls don't double 10s. If you're a close combat expert and you have a decent amount of investment in Stamina and Resistance (which, if you're the archetypal Dawn with a big daiklave, you probably do!), this isn't exactly too insurmountable a hurdle. Also, since the ranged charm doesn't allow the Thousand Blades user to make attacks at medium or further without aiming, they're spending a turn or two doing nothing if they're attempting to kite. Really, there's so many cheap ways to deal with the wacky sword obstacle course (Solars can just chuck their sword at them from medium range without aiming, Lunars can switch to a ranged option since they're not married to one combat ability like the ability Exalts are or Kraken Lash them into close range, and Sidereals can just teleport past it all and unleash their kung-fu) that I'm not seeing its incredible danger. The Perilous tag also means that it gets dropped if you crash them, which isn't too hard an ask. Anyway, I like Exalted Essence a lot more than the other users in this thread. Not sure where the disappointment comes from. I find it about on par with the Chronicles of Darkness books in terms of complexity, which is fine for me, and its refreshing to have every Exalt type in one book.
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Feb 23, 2023 06:52
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Is artifact weapon and armor just the price of entry for Exalted combat at character creation, or is that more of an essence 2-3 thing?
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Feb 23, 2023 08:06
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Ham Equity posted:Is artifact weapon and armor just the price of entry for Exalted combat at character creation, or is that more of an essence 2-3 thing? If you're a fighting exalt, it's the price of entry.
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Feb 23, 2023 08:22
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Technically your Storyteller could deny you permission to take the Artifact merit at character creation (I did this once), but if they don't, you won't find a better bonus to combat ability for less investment than an artifact weapon and artifact armor.
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Feb 23, 2023 08:31
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Whirling posted:I've never found hazards in this system to be very frightening. The difficult terrain is more intimidating than something that takes about 12 dice on average to beat without taking a single bit of damage and will do chip damage if it does land since the damage dice it rolls don't double 10s. If you're a close combat expert and you have a decent amount of investment in Stamina and Resistance (which, if you're the archetypal Dawn with a big daiklave, you probably do!), this isn't exactly too insurmountable a hurdle. Also, since the ranged charm doesn't allow the Thousand Blades user to make attacks at medium or further without aiming, they're spending a turn or two doing nothing if they're attempting to kite. Really, there's so many cheap ways to deal with the wacky sword obstacle course (Solars can just chuck their sword at them from medium range without aiming, Lunars can switch to a ranged option since they're not married to one combat ability like the ability Exalts are or Kraken Lash them into close range, and Sidereals can just teleport past it all and unleash their kung-fu) that I'm not seeing its incredible danger. The Perilous tag also means that it gets dropped if you crash them, which isn't too hard an ask. How frightening a hazard is changes dramatically with its rating. The paradigmatic combat-relevant hazard is the trusty "bonfire", which is Difficulty 5 to resist and rolls 4 dice of lethal damage against your health if you fail. These 4 dice completely ignore parry, evasion, soak, hardness, whatever; you either pass your saving throw (which, mercifully, can be a reflex save or a fortitude save) or you're eating the dice. Now, if you're a Chosen combatant, you probably have ten or even eleven dice to make that save with, which means you'll be passing it roughly half the time, which means you're losing an average of one health box a turn. This is kind of like fighting an opponent who's generating a free 2i out of the ether every round. Scale that bonfire up to 6L for difficulty 6, though, and you've got serious problems. You're more likely to fail that roll than pass it unless you spend motes on an excellency, and if you fail it you're eating just under 3 levels of average damage which cost your enemy no initiative to roll against your health bar. You're going to be paying through the nose in either health boxes (and their attendant wound penalties) or motes just to break even against the hazard. And, of course, you're going to be doing that for twice as many turns as you want to because the hazard is also friendly-fire-disabled difficult terrain. The hazard charm is sort of balanced in the hands of Dragon-Blooded since, as crushingly powerful as difficult terrain is, they at least have to pay initiative each round to deal that damage (although they are getting a x1.5 multiplier on that initiative). But without Terrestrial or, god forbid, with Mastery? Way too good. Flying Blade Technique doesn't require aiming at any range, incidentally. There's a sidebar in the corebook Archery charms that says as much. A Thousand Blades stylist who attacks you from a distance is going to get like three turns of free attacks on you before you can start stabbing or punching them, and that's if they're not sustaining the bladestorm and their feet are frozen to the floor for some reason. With room to move (like, say, into the air) they can just retreat forever, keeping an enemy at medium or long range and attacking every round - and an enemy archer would have to spend half their turns aiming to shoot back! But then an archer is infinitely more dangerous to the Thousand Blades stylist than a swordsman, since the swordsman doesn't get to attack at all, so in a way you're right. A quick hotfix to Thousand Blades would probably be: in every single piece of rules text reading [Arsenal], make the rules read [half Arsenal, rounded down] instead. A 2/2 hazard (3/3 when you're in the Form) is actually the kind of minor but basically-manageable edge that you describe in your post. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 08:51 on Feb 23, 2023 |
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Feb 23, 2023 08:43
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Whirling posted:This is such a strange claim that it made me pay ten bucks and stop lurking just to ask you: how on Earth did you come to this conclusion? 2e had several martial arts that were so broken that the only winning move was to completely ban them from ever being used. Even with the context of Exalted 3e, Thousand Blades Style is not the strongest martial art (I'd probably give the title to Righteous Devil in core) and the only thing I can see as needing to be rebalanced is the distance at which it can attack from at Essence 3. In general, the claims that it is overpowered or breaks the game in this thread are so off from what I've seen people in the Exalted community that I trust regarding balance say about it that I'm genuinely curious at to why everyone ITT came to the conclusion that its problematic on the level of Cobra Style or the infamous Obsidian Shards of Infinity Style. I don't know if I could actually back up the claim that it's worse than the 2e Charms that were written by people who didn't understand the system and didn't want to, but it certainly made me feel worse because it's coming from a team that I'd previously assumed knew enough not to publish this sort of thing, let alone present it as the kind of preview that's supposed to excite me. I think Ferrinus has summarized the mechanical issues pretty accurately. The style might almost make sense if it was still the insane drip of a First Age elder who designed her own Gate of Babylon where she wastes hundreds of legendary weapons just to show she can, and had prerequisites to match, but making it something any Exalt can start off with (you don't even need a thousand daiklaives!) completely breaks it both mechanically and thematically.
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Feb 23, 2023 17:24
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Rand Brittain posted:Exalted Essence is probably the ugliest book Onyx Path has ever produced, which is saying something. I think between this and Thousand Blades Style (and honestly, I wasn't a big fan of the Sidereal Charmset either), I'm done with Exalted. I'm glad I finished Golden Calibration, but it's pretty clear to me that at this point anything new that gets published is going to be something I can't stand. This is absolutely the best for you. I really hope you can find happiness doing anything else. Sometimes you just have to let go and move on. There are so many other games and communities.
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Feb 23, 2023 18:29
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Ferrinus posted:How frightening a hazard is changes dramatically with its rating. The paradigmatic combat-relevant hazard is the trusty "bonfire", which is Difficulty 5 to resist and rolls 4 dice of lethal damage against your health if you fail. These 4 dice completely ignore parry, evasion, soak, hardness, whatever; you either pass your saving throw (which, mercifully, can be a reflex save or a fortitude save) or you're eating the dice. Now, if you're a Chosen combatant, you probably have ten or even eleven dice to make that save with, which means you'll be passing it roughly half the time, which means you're losing an average of one health box a turn. This is kind of like fighting an opponent who's generating a free 2i out of the ether every round. I'm still not seeing the hazard being that big of a deal if you've got good investment in ranged options and if Flying Blade Technique is nerfed, since all it takes to shut it down is crashing them to end the hazard, but yup, that Archery sidebar does exist. Why isn't that in the Charm rule section, I'll never know, but you've got me there. I hope there's feedback being given where the devs can actually see it, at least. Anyway, on the topic of Demake, I like a lot of its features. I think that charms lacking prerequisites is refreshing after the very weighty Charm trees of 3e. I also love the changes to anima; it being something you turn on when you go all out like the auras in DBZ instead of being essentially the same as your car's engine pumping out smoke because you've pushed it too far is always what I figured anima should be. I also agree that its take on Infernals is more interesting than the current direction for Infernals; maybe their 3e book will make them more interesting, but its a bit confused in tone as of now. Seeing the early draft versions of those Exalts that wound up in the back of the Exigents book is also interesting, although I'm not sure they're exactly playable with any party that has a good moral backbone. I'm not sure I like it more than Essence, though. Demake Lunars are very strange, speaking as a fan of Luna's Chosen; Holden seems to enjoy the idea of them being PTSD-ridden former slaves of the Solars whose Exaltation tortures them if they see literally anything from the First Age, which compares unfavorably to the fairly empowered guerillas of the 3e Silver Pact who fought the Solars to a stalemate in the early years of Creation. The combat isn't also quite there yet; as of the last time I looked at antagonists, they don't hit very hard at all and it lacks rules to build all types of antagonist you might need. Also, Essence allows you to make characters that act like D&D 4e Leaders, shouting commands to their allies to make them kill faster, whereas Demake still goes with the standard assumption that you'd better learn Martial Arts of some kind to get ahead in Creation. Finally, there's no Crafting or other long-term project rules as of now beyond a vague insinuation of haggling it out with your ST, which is really annoying to me since my favorite Solar Caste is the Twilight Caste.
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Feb 23, 2023 19:05
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Whirling posted:I'm still not seeing the hazard being that big of a deal if you've got good investment in ranged options and if Flying Blade Technique is nerfed, since all it takes to shut it down is crashing them to end the hazard, but yup, that Archery sidebar does exist. Why isn't that in the Charm rule section, I'll never know, but you've got me there. I hope there's feedback being given where the devs can actually see it, at least. Here you seem to have gone from the hazard not being that big a deal in general ("never found ... very frightening" "chip damage" etc) to the hazard not being too big a deal if you've got good investment in ranged options (i.e. if you simply give up on actually navigating it (as you should, because 6/6 that's also diff. terrain is completely bonkers)). However, even if we correctly write Sword-Shrike's Garden off as unbeatable on its own terms, we have problems: * Does a Brawl, Melee, or (almost every) Martial Arts-focused character have "good investment in ranged options"? I don't actually expect them to because, prior to pretty much this style and nothing else, Ex3 has actually had extremely strong safeties in place precisely to prevent a ranged character from being able to simply snipe at a close-up character forever and win without risk. These begin with the aim-for-medium-range rules and the Rush action but also live in the charm cascades for various ranged abilities. Prior to Thousand Blades, a Melee-focused Solar who, after picking up a bunch of the Charms they actually wanted to use, tossed some points at Iron Raptor and maybe Sandstorm-Wind was basically set. Here, they're just hosed. Apparently they're supposed to also max out and put multiple Charms into their Archery or something? * Will "good investment in ranged options" actually save you from Thousand Blades? Is there, for example, an Archery charm which, for 3m1wp, give you +6 accuracy and +6 post-soak damage (or, on a decisive attack, +6(!!!) damage flat-out)? Can an Archery or Thrown-focused character attack from medium range every turn rather than every second turn? Can they win if their enemy (who can fly, and has +6 on any attendant movement rolls, such as Rushes) simply closes with them and swirlies them with a 6L/6diff. hazard while also reflexively counterattacking or clashing their shots (and adding 6 free damage dice to those counterattacks if they're feeling spicy)? This is insanely pushed and needs to go back to the drawing board. Like Rand, though, my actual chief concern is that this style completely ruins a bunch of narrative and thematic conceits of Exalted. It's as if they printed a (slightly) nerfed version of Charcoal March of Spiders that starts at Essence 1 Martial Arts 2. quote:I'm not sure I like it more than Essence, though. Demake Lunars are very strange, speaking as a fan of Luna's Chosen; Holden seems to enjoy the idea of them being PTSD-ridden former slaves of the Solars whose Exaltation tortures them if they see literally anything from the First Age, which compares unfavorably to the fairly empowered guerillas of the 3e Silver Pact who fought the Solars to a stalemate in the early years of Creation. The combat isn't also quite there yet; as of the last time I looked at antagonists, they don't hit very hard at all and it lacks rules to build all types of antagonist you might need. Also, Essence allows you to make characters that act like D&D 4e Leaders, shouting commands to their allies to make them kill faster, whereas Demake still goes with the standard assumption that you'd better learn Martial Arts of some kind to get ahead in Creation. Finally, there's no Crafting or other long-term project rules as of now beyond a vague insinuation of haggling it out with your ST, which is really annoying to me since my favorite Solar Caste is the Twilight Caste. The idea behind Demake Lunars is that they're supposed to be a more-internally-coherent of 1e Lunars, where the Lunars are unmanageably and non-negotiably antagonistic towards the Realm in specific and to (what people in the center vs. the periphery assume is) "civilization" in broad terms. The Solars just left their dog in the backyard on their thousand-year excursion, and came back to find it'd gone feral. Now, I actually like this, and I think it actually squares pretty well with the Lunars posited by the 3e core + preview material and indeed the 3e Lunars supplement itself: the Lunars remember well the follies of the last age, know that the only constant in history is change, and have transformed themselves because they want to destroy the last holdovers of the past in order to allow the wheel of history to finally turn. Oh, you're returned at last to rectify injustice and restore the glories of the First Age? gently caress you! It was never any good; we won't let you bring it back. "The old world is dying, and the new world struggles to be born; now is the time of monsters." However, just as you say, this is accomplished by basically plugging a microchip into the back of every Lunar's head. First and foremost, this is just clumsy design; it'd be like if the writers of Vampire: the Masquerade, upon deciding that the Gangrel had to leave the Camarilla, just gave the Gangrel Clan Weakness: Every week you're in the Camarilla, lose a willpower point and roll to resist frenzy. But, more insidiously, it undercuts the Lunars ideologically and makes the reader less inclined to take them seriously. Why wouldn't someone support the Realm? Why wouldn't someone want to help the Solars rebuild the original Realm? Oh, they must just be crazy, they're in their feelings, they've got the vapors, don't pay them any heed. It's a shame, but what can you do. Oh, and also, Heart-Eaters should just be Lunars. Like all those powers and maybe even the unique Limit mechanic should just belong to Lunars instead. In general, I feel like there's a lot of thematic territory Lunars should have had that got carved off and given to different splats across like every edition of Exalted. Really there's a bunch of random Demake fluff I don't care much for, but it doesn't bother me that much since across three editions of Exalted I'm pretty certain of what I am or am not interested in assuming is true and/or including in a game. Besides individual mechanization of specific charms or similar rules toys, I'd say my complaints about Demake are as follows: 1. The fact that antagonists have different combat mechanics from player characters (the damage type they take doesn't matter to them, they never roll damage or soak, etc) means that a lot of Charms for players have bifurcated rules text such that they do one thing to an antagonist and another thing to a PC, or have multiple options that are balanced against antagonists but imbalanced vs. players or vice versa (an easy example here is a DB charm that can either deal 3L or 3B + knockback). I'd rather they bite the bullet and just remove damage rolls or soak rolls or whatever for everyone so that Charms always do the same thing, damage type always has the same implication, etc. 2. The fact that Defense is a TN (which is good; it means a back-of-the-book antagonist with like 7 dice to roll can actually hit you) but is calculated as 3+Skill(+1 if you have a shield OR are unarmored as appropriate) means that basically every character you'd take seriously, including PCs, has Defense 8 or 9 by default. This has a few weird effects, but the one that most annoys me is that almost every defensive charm has to have text like "This gives you +2 to Defense. If it would push your Defense above 9, instead it..." As with point 1, there's an arbitrary commitment to a not-really-necessary design conceit that the Charmset has to be deformed around. This is also happening with Soak, where like, well, we've got to have a bunch of stacking effects that give you extra soak, and being resistant to damage has got to be represented as rolling soak dice and nothing more, but that's causing balance problems, so now we have to add a bunch of special rules for soak degradation... 3. There's actually a bunch of extra actions littered around everywhere, such that combat with sufficiently strong participants is going to have one or even multiple sub-rounds after each real round in which everyone takes their first extra action, then everyone good enough takes their second extra action... Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Feb 23, 2023 |
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Feb 23, 2023 20:16
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I still don't consider something easily surmountable with stunting and basic investment in Resistance to be very frightening, no. The difficult terrain is tricky, but I still cannot see why I should be frightened of something that costs a trickle of motes to shut down, or scare myself by imagining a dickhead GM that is out to gently caress me up by starting a fight with a Thousand Blades stylist at Extreme range (and, really, if you go by the core's recommendations, you probably aren't going to be fighting a full character). Also, I feel like this feedback kind of wasted posted on here. You try the official forums for your troubles with the style? I feel like the current devs aren't as stubborn as Holden and Morke used to be, so there is possibility for change here. Anyway, I would agree that if their loathing of the Old Realm was an actual ideological position, like 3e Lunars targeting old First Age infrastructure for destruction to deny it to their enemies, it would be interesting. As is, it's mostly just asking for the GM to mess with you if they're bored and want to generate drama ("Ooooh, 5000 years ago, your prior incarnation saw that First Age road! Aren't you upset to see it still around?"). I also don't like the concept of Lunars as ex-slaves, period; its very lame to imagine a Celestial Exalt that is captive to another, especially considering that the Sidereals managed to kill almost every Solar with <100 of themselves working towards that goal. Whirling fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Feb 23, 2023 |
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Feb 23, 2023 21:34
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Whirling posted:I still don't consider something easily surmountable with stunting and basic investment in Resistance to be very frightening, no. The difficult terrain is tricky, but I still cannot see why I should be frightened of something that costs a trickle of motes to shut down, or scare myself by imagining a dickhead GM that is out to gently caress me up by starting a fight with a Thousand Blades stylist at Extreme range (and, really, if you go by the core's recommendations, you probably aren't going to be fighting a full character). Also, I feel like this feedback kind of wasted posted on here. You try the official forums for your troubles with the style? I feel like the current devs aren't as stubborn as Holden and Morke used to be, so there is possibility for change here. ...exactly which basic investment in Resistance are you thinking of? One of the problems I remember addressing in Golden Calibration was that the only Resistance Charm that dealt with environmental hazards didn't even work against a bonfire, which is the gold standard of Charms creating hazards.
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Feb 23, 2023 21:39
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Rand Brittain posted:...exactly which basic investment in Resistance are you thinking of? One of the problems I remember addressing in Golden Calibration was that the only Resistance Charm that dealt with environmental hazards didn't even work against a bonfire, which is the gold standard of Charms creating hazards. I mean, all you need is a Resistance Excellency (or Stamina if you're a Lunar) to get the dice needed to overcome this or any other hazard, which is something any Exalt with Ox-Body Technique has available to them.
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Feb 23, 2023 21:57
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Whirling posted:I mean, all you need is a Resistance Excellency (or Stamina if you're a Lunar) to get the dice needed to overcome this or any other hazard, which is something any Exalt with Ox-Body Technique has available to them. Well, for one thing, not every hazard demands a Resistance roll (it's up to the Storyteller), but even if you have whatever Excellency is appropriate for this (which is likely enough, since Dodge or Parry both ought to be allowable in this case), that's blowing quite a few motes every turn for several turns, just to get through this one effect.
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Feb 23, 2023 22:01
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I suppose, it might just be my fixation on playing muscle wizards in this system that's coloring this chat; I usually go around rocking 5 Resistance dots on most characters I play. On another topic, I hope the Underworld gets the same kind of glow-up that Yu-Shan got in Sidereals. I'm hoping they have more communities of ghosts that aren't aligned to any deathlord, for starters; it seems like everything revolving around those thirteen ghosts really dragged the potential of that plane of existence down.
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Feb 23, 2023 22:17
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Whirling posted:I still don't consider something easily surmountable with stunting and basic investment in Resistance to be very frightening, no. The difficult terrain is tricky, but I still cannot see why I should be frightened of something that costs a trickle of motes to shut down, or scare myself by imagining a dickhead GM that is out to gently caress me up by starting a fight with a Thousand Blades stylist at Extreme range (and, really, if you go by the core's recommendations, you probably aren't going to be fighting a full character). Also, I feel like this feedback kind of wasted posted on here. You try the official forums for your troubles with the style? I feel like the current devs aren't as stubborn as Holden and Morke used to be, so there is possibility for change here. I'm not really sure what you're talking about in your first sentence. Difficult terrain isn't easily surmounted with stunting; in fact, it isn't surmounted at all with stunting, but with - at minimum - a merit with extremely pissy phrasing that requires you to specify the difficult terrain you're adapted to ahead of time. Lots of magic will incidentally protect you from some difficult terrain (for example, a Thousand Blades Stylist who activates their flight is obviously going to be able to ignore quicksand or thick underbrush) but there's no simply flying over a cloud of flying swords that surrounds its creator in all directions and moves with them. I guess a prospective foe could buy Tempered By The Elements: Cloud Of Flying Daiklaves but in that case they've just spend 6xp to shut down only half an enemy's 8xp charm, and not the half that will actually kill them. Possibly you mean that the assumed +2 dice from everyone getting a 1-point stunt on every action is enough to overcome a diff. 6 hazard, but while going from 10-11 dice (11 dice assumes "dodge (unarmored)" here because no one is going to have "resistance (weapons)" since that's not what the resistance skill is even for by default) to 12-13 dice is going to move your odds of avoiding damage back to "a coin flip" from "worse than a coin flip" it doesn't actually save you from the prospect of your enemy effectively getting 6 free initiative that they immediately smear all over your face on every other round. And if you start funneling motes into your Athletics or Dodge or Resistance excellency you're just giving them the win along a different axis, because A) dicepools are swingy and your 16 or 17 dice might fail to turn up 6 successes anyway, so your trickle of motes is certainly not going to "shut down" anything and B) "a trickle of motes" is actually hugely important in high-stakes Exalted combat. I don't know what your experience has been like, but as both an ST and a player I've seen loads of fights reach the bottom of everyone's barrel really quickly, such that people are having to seriously figure out whether it's safe to spend 3 of their 5/46 total motes on Excellent Strike or if they need to keep at least 3 in reserve for Durability of Oak. And, remember, we're talking about a single Charm here. Even if Garden was fixed or deleted (I just had an idea for a fix: you have to spend Arsenal 1 for 1 to make the hazard, which won't move with you) we've still got the basic problem that Thousand Blades lets you pay 5m to do something that'd cost even a Solar 12m (if it was even possible; unlike that one Thousand Blades attack, Fire and Stones only goes up to 5), repeatedly. I don't really have reason to believe that the new devs are more amenable to feedback than the old as opposed to simply having a different vision for the game. I'm sure I'm not the only person who's registered some or all of these problems, and we've got Rand's testimony right here as to how well that went. quote:Anyway, I would agree that if their loathing of the Old Realm was an actual ideological position, like 3e Lunars targeting old First Age infrastructure for destruction to deny it to their enemies, it would be interesting. As is, it's mostly just asking for the GM to mess with you if they're bored and want to generate drama ("Ooooh, 5000 years ago, your prior incarnation saw that First Age road! Aren't you upset to see it still around?"). I also don't like the concept of Lunars as ex-slaves, period; its very lame to imagine a Celestial Exalt that is captive to another, especially considering that the Sidereals managed to kill almost every Solar with <100 of themselves working towards that goal. The tragic backstory doesn't bother me that much. Everyone in the First Age was the de facto chew toy of the maddened Solar Exalted, but it makes sense that the Lunars at least remember getting the worst of it because DBs don't reincarnate and Sidereals had the excuse of needing to stay at the office after-hours. However, the actual mechanization of contemporary Demake Lunars achieves the exact reverse of what it's meant to, because rather than being the one kind of Exalt who understands that the world needs to move on Lunars end up being the kind of Exalt that's most obsessed with and hung up on the past. It's a very unflattering and frankly conservative portrayal of resistance and liberation movements in general, like, oh these people who fighting back against our occupation must just be angry at what happened hundreds of years ago, but it's not like that was our fault! They should just get over it. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Feb 23, 2023 |
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Feb 23, 2023 22:19
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Whirling posted:I suppose, it might just be my fixation on playing muscle wizards in this system that's coloring this chat; I usually go around rocking 5 Resistance dots on most characters I play. At 5 resistance/5 stamina, you'd only have a fifty percent chance of passing, assuming a 1-point stunt and no other effects.
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Feb 23, 2023 22:23
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Ham Equity posted:At 5 resistance/5 stamina, you'd only have a fifty percent chance of passing, assuming a 1-point stunt and no other effects. A real gamer can pass a 50% check at least 85% of the time. Sounds like a skill issue.
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Feb 23, 2023 22:27
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Ferrinus posted:I don't really have reason to believe that the new devs are more amenable to feedback than the old as opposed to simply having a different vision for the game. I'm sure I'm not the only person who's registered some or all of these problems, and we've got Rand's testimony right here as to how well that went. quote:The tragic backstory doesn't bother me that much. Everyone in the First Age was the de facto chew toy of the maddened Solar Exalted, but it makes sense that the Lunars at least remember getting the worst of it because DBs don't reincarnate and Sidereals had the excuse of needing to stay at the office after-hours. However, the actual mechanization of contemporary Demake Lunars achieves the exact reverse of what it's meant to, because rather than being the one kind of Exalt who understands that the world needs to move on Lunars end up being the kind of Exalt that's most obsessed with and hung up on the past. It's a very unflattering and frankly conservative portrayal of resistance and liberation movements in general, like, oh these people who fighting back against our occupation must just be angry at what happened hundreds of years ago, but it's not like that was our fault! They should just get over it. I mean, I'm a big Great Curse hater and wish it were gone, but even in the context of the First Age's downfall being partly fueled by magical hubris, you figure that the Solars actually had stuff to offer their loyalists beyond a few using their social charms to make people like them. The 2e mindset of just about every Solar being a bizarre sociopath that would eat their bonded Lunar and sworn Dragon-blooded officers for fun if they stopped being useful is really uninteresting in comparison to them being dangerous because their ambitions were set so high that any side effect resulting from the effort to achieve them was brushed off. "Oops, sorry about sinking 3k square miles of inhabited Creation into the Wyld, but I'm on the cusp of inventing a new drug that extends mortal lifespans to 300 years. They'll forgive me in the end."
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Feb 23, 2023 22:43
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Whirling posted:Didn't really see anything from Rand that implied he talked with them about it, but if we assume that this is a doomed effort from the start and that Exalted will never achieve its true platonic ideal form, than I guess I can just bow out of this since nothing will be advanced by this discussion beyond maybe me learning about a very critical sidebar tucked away in Solar Archery. Nothing? You're in the official Discord or whatever, right? Do you just disagree with every single thing I said such that you'll never pass any of them on? quote:I mean, I'm a big Great Curse hater and wish it were gone, but even in the context of the First Age's downfall being partly fueled by magical hubris, you figure that the Solars actually had stuff to offer their loyalists beyond a few using their social charms to make people like them. The 2e mindset of just about every Solar being a bizarre sociopath that would eat their bonded Lunar and sworn Dragon-blooded officers for fun if they stopped being useful is really uninteresting in comparison to them being dangerous because their ambitions were set so high that any side effect resulting from the effort to achieve them was brushed off. "Oops, sorry about sinking 3k square miles of inhabited Creation into the Wyld, but I'm on the cusp of inventing a new drug that extends mortal lifespans to 300 years. They'll forgive me in the end." Even if the Great Curse literally didn't exist in any way, shape, or form, the minoritarian dictatorship that was the First Age had no choice but to fall; the only question was when and how. Rule by a tiny clique over the masses just isn't sustainable, no matter how benevolent the clique or how relatively weak the individual members of the masses. This understanding demonstrates that the Demake (but, also, 1e and 3e; like I said, there's a lot of thematic continuity here) Lunars actually have a better understanding of historical materialism than any of the other Chosen.
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Feb 23, 2023 22:50
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If it's a demake, shouldn't the Solar/Lunar bond be a bigger deal? Isn't part of the whole Solar fantasy that there's a barbarian hero out there who's perfect for them?
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Feb 23, 2023 23:01
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wiegieman posted:If it's a demake, shouldn't the Solar/Lunar bond be a bigger deal? Isn't part of the whole Solar fantasy that there's a barbarian hero out there who's perfect for them? Actually my favorite Demake-specific detail is that there's no such thing. I forget if the idea still exists as something the Solars got into their heads/functionally made true by picking out and adopting their personal favorites or just doesn't even enter into anyone's head, but either way no Solar actually has a predesignated match out there.
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Feb 23, 2023 23:05
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Ferrinus posted:Nothing? You're in the official Discord or whatever, right? Do you just disagree with every single thing I said such that you'll never pass any of them on? quote:Even if the Great Curse literally didn't exist in any way, shape, or form, the minoritarian dictatorship that was the First Age had no choice but to fall; the only question was when and how. Rule by a tiny clique over the masses just isn't sustainable, no matter how benevolent the clique or how relatively weak the individual members of the masses. This understanding demonstrates that the Demake (but, also, 1e and 3e; like I said, there's a lot of thematic continuity here) Lunars actually have a better understanding of historical materialism than any of the other Chosen. I don't care if my RPG lacks historical materialist perspectives, I can just go to my local DSA chapter and help out there and feel somewhat better about the state of the world rather than LARP out being Solar Marx in an entirely fictional world. I just want it to have fun narratives and "Lunars were the whipping boys of the Solars until the Bronze Sidereals accidentally liberated them" is dull.
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Feb 23, 2023 23:11
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Whirling posted:I don't want to use a Discord, though, since every time I join on for a video game, it's the worst poo poo I've ever looked at. I could post this on the OP forums now that they've revived them, if you like, but I think I'd like to stick to my guns and just not use Discord for anything but my own tabletop group. Well, I'm sure as hell not going to dig up my old forums account so I guess we're both out of luck. From what I understand the official forums weren't even operational for the past several years, and I have to assume they receive about two posts per week now. quote:I don't care if my RPG lacks historical materialist perspectives, I can just go to my local DSA chapter and help out there and feel somewhat better about the state of the world rather than LARP out being Solar Marx in an entirely fictional world. I just want it to have fun narratives and "Lunars were the whipping boys of the Solars until the Bronze Sidereals accidentally liberated them" is dull. Everyone was the whipping boy, girl, or other of the Solars until the Sidereals (and Dragon-Blooded, and mortals, and no doubt some turncoat Lunars and Solars themselves, insofar as they agreed and could find the opportunity) brought the whole edifice crashing down. The Deliberative may have been great, but it wasn't good. Otherwise we might as well wax poetic about the lost age of the titans. Remember when Theion and Cecelyne were in charge? You knew where you stood back then.
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Feb 23, 2023 23:15
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Whirling posted:I mean, all you need is a Resistance Excellency (or Stamina if you're a Lunar) to get the dice needed to overcome this or any other hazard, which is something any Exalt with Ox-Body Technique has available to them. Couple points, and just using this quote as a stand in for your other related discussions on the topic, although my first point will directly address this. First, no, actually, you don't. Resistance isn't the "beat hazards" ability, it is one of the potential abilities for defeating a hazard. This actually works to make TBS slightly less bonkers, since there is a strong argument to be made that someone should be able to do a Dex+Dodge roll to resist the damage, and maybe others depending on the present fiction/stunting. In fact, if I was the ST, Dex+Dodge would be my default call for it. How the hell is Sta+Res stopping artifact weapons from tearing through you without stunting or maybe the right Charm to enable that roll. I'd probably let some crafty uses of Manipulation + Performance or similar also work given the line about the hazard ignoring allies. Second, just broadly on your defense of it, the approach you are taking of "well if you build this way, it can be defeated" is a bad one, not even getting into if the approach actually works. Everything in Exalted can be defeated with This One Weird Trick that the Exalted hate! Defending a style/feature/system requires a review of it versus the other option space out there, how it interacts with them, and if it is just raw better than anything else. Which TBS just is, its a mess on relative balance. Thousand Blades Unleashed breaks massively with the core system and breaks it in multiple key ways, with the most insane to me is the attunement cost reduction, followed very closely by the fact that you count as wielding the artifacts while it is active. Just grabbing some of the premade daiklaves, if you Arsenal Beloved Adorei, Spring Razor, Distaff, and Flying Silver Dream (we're not even touching 5 dot artifacts yet!) you get +1 to accuracy and one automatic success on all withering damage rolls (Beloved Adorei), Howling Lotus Strike evocation (Spring Razor), +1 Parry against Disarm gambits with their difficulty being raised by 1, in addition to the out of combat Distaff silk (The Distaff), a free non-charm success on all awareness rolls to detect danger, no defense penalty on drawing/readying including reflexive readying against surprise attacks (Flying Silver Dream). All of those come from just attunement, doesn't even get into the very strange and broken stacking you'll be able to do with Evocations. Also, those permanent evocations? Always active as long as you're wielding the weapons, which you're always doing when they are your Arsenal weapons because TBU just lets you do that. Oh, also, you don't need the MA merit for this style because *waves hands. This doesn't even get into how many hearthstones this gives you access to on just your weapons, which further increases your option space on the cheap. TBS explosively increases an Exalt's option space for a greatly discounted cost compared to any other style. So strongly so, I'd say its as bad as the BP/XP divide in terms of massively incentivizing players to develop their characters in very specific ways, which also ties back to your "well, this build can counter it" approach. That situation is part of what devolved 2e into paranoia combat (at least imo), and is something that should really be avoided if at all possible. It is both too good at what it does specifically, is very good at multiple other things (flying WITH movement dice bonuses! large scale moving and extremely dangerous always active AoE that doesn't effect allies!), and is functionally a large discount on expanding your option space and permanently buffing an Exalt. Whirling posted:Didn't really see anything from Rand that implied he talked with them about it, but if we assume that this is a doomed effort from the start and that Exalted will never achieve its true platonic ideal form, than I guess I can just bow out of this since nothing will be advanced by this discussion beyond maybe me learning about a very critical sidebar tucked away in Solar Archery. Third, this is kind of weak. I know you just joined after lurking, so welcome, but you came in with contention and got a response. If you've been lurking long enough, this should be expected, especially from Ferrinus. I have had several disagreements with their opinions and preferences for how games should be designed/played, but when it comes to doing their homework on the number crunching and remembering the mind numbing amount of options and rules, they are top notch. When it comes to mechanical crunch and rule space, I'd heavily advise reading what they are saying carefully and asking clarifying questions instead of just trying to rebut - I know I've learned a poo poo ton about how the RAW actually should be working from their breakdowns vs how I interpreted them because seriously why are there so many weird specific rules and important pieces of information in random sidebars? But also, as I'm sure you're noticing, Ferrinus bites back. Rand did the golden calibration, in addition to working in industry and has specifically discussed talking with the devs and different people on the teams in this thread. You can click the ? in the lower left-hand corner of a users posts in a thread to review someone's post history in the thread. A number of people here, if you pay attention and associate users over time, work in the RPG/gaming industry in general, and have worked directly with Onyx or related entities. This is also a rather small community, with some of the problems that can entail, but it is also incredibly dense with industry talent and individuals who do this poo poo for a living, not just random opinions on how they'd like it to work.
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Feb 23, 2023 23:57
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Oh man, I hadn't even considered that Thousand Blades lets you just pile on the unique passive bonuses of every daiklave you find, that's great. I always discounted "reduces the commitment cost to 1 or 0" as an actual bonus since I sort of had in my head that a daikalve was a daiklave was a daiklave, but that's not actually true in 3E!
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Feb 24, 2023 00:13
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TaintedBalance posted:Couple points, and just using this quote as a stand in for your other related discussions on the topic, although my first point will directly address this. Sure, I can agree with all this stuff broadly and I can admit that I was rather contentious (I don't take it personally, it's all elf game talk anyways), but where does this all go if the assumption is that Exalted 3e and Essence are doomed and the devs will plug their ears and go "la la la" if you say any of these critiques to them?
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Feb 24, 2023 00:25
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