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If you actually think my goal with that post was to build a giant ignore list of people who have not apologized in the correct way and to discourage the reporting of abuse, kindly go gently caress yourselves.
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Mar 24, 2023 16:04
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Cloacamazing! posted:"Don't be a dick" is a ground rule for mafia games for a reason. We are playing games that require us to lie to and manipulate people due to their nature. I'm sure everybody here can attest to the fact that this can take a toll out of people, has led to friction in the past and will continue to do so in the future. It works out for the most part because of two things. One, that we all understand it's just a game. Two, because there are lines that we do not cross. Personal attacks. Antagonism. Actually being rude and hurting people's feelings. Cloacamazing! posted:go gently caress yourselves.
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Mar 24, 2023 16:06
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At least nobody’s posting angrily and aggressively today, so that’s progress.
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Mar 24, 2023 16:06
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Sandwolf posted:Can you earnestly tell me what I am supposed to do when people from this community come to tell me they are uncomfortable by something occurring here? Like I was just suggested as a point of contact for that, I came here publicly to talk about it, and it’s met with you folks hitting out at me for doing so. Sandwolf literally posted that people went to him about feeling uncomfortable how the older players were treating them, and people went at them for posting that. It sucked and was really lovely, and while folks backed off it doesn't change the fact that people are coming in after several years removed because some drama that is also several years removed from the mafia community (Riven was 5+ years ago, and IMG was not in any way tied to the mafia community as it has long since spun off into a separate community with several different game runners) cropped up to just immediately be lovely to the people who have actually been in the mafia community. I dunno, this recent turn on the thread has been pretty bad as someone who came back a few months ago.
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Mar 24, 2023 16:08
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Cloacamazing! posted:If you actually think my goal with that post was to build a giant ignore list of people who have not apologized in the correct way and to discourage the reporting of abuse, kindly go gently caress yourselves. I definitely don't think this was your goal or intent. I do think that we are coming off of an event where accusations of abuse were weaponized to shut down valid complaints of abuse. People talked about feeling like they were the wrong one because they brought up topics and everybody else got mad at them and accused them of being disruptive/rude, etc. Especially with large groups, it is easy to feel like an outsider when you don't like how something is going, and an in group can attack with claims of someone being a troublemaker, etc. It can be extremely convincing, even in cases of overtly abusive behaviors.
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Mar 24, 2023 16:11
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I've seen threads get far more angry at one another - like, this week - but the contentiousness here seems to me to be more a matter of a few people using textual styles of communication that allow for either a jokey or a hostile reading depending on where the reader is coming from; and, what some posters may have seen as a steamroller towards setting up an IK from among a group of posters they don't recognize and objecting to that. So both substantive disagreement that has been working out as people discuss in earnest, and, some hostility, a little genuine and a little based on mutual misunderstanding. This is normal. Moderation can help by reminding people to be kind, be forgiving, listen to what people are saying despite the tone they're saying it in. chaoslord posted:I took it as a joke about what happens in mafia games when you don’t set a deadline. In mafia games the stated question is always “who should be dunked?” and you have X days to do it, the deadline helps move things along somewhat. When the deadline for that is way too long or if one doesn’t get set things tend to go off the rails more often because a bunch of people want to seriously work toward an answer and others are thinking “we have a week to figure this out I can Ah, OK, I get it! My take right now is that there is something close to a consensus that Mafia specifically does not need an IK with buttons, but that TGR could probably use a more general game IK. It would be fruitful to talk to folks who use TGR for non-Mafia purposes when finding such a volunteer. If this is a "consensus" that actually you don't agree with but feel pressured to agree with, let me know privately and I can communicate that anonymized back to this thread.
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Mar 24, 2023 16:12
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for five days” and it can lead to butting of heads and such
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Leperflesh posted:My take right now is that there is something close to a consensus that Mafia specifically does not need an IK with buttons, but that TGR could probably use a more general game IK. It would be fruitful to talk to folks who use TGR for non-Mafia purposes when finding such a volunteer. If this is a "consensus" that actually you don't agree with but feel pressured to agree with, let me know privately and I can communicate that anonymized back to this thread. Agreed yeah.
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Mar 24, 2023 16:13
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Leperflesh posted:I've seen threads get far more angry at one another - like, this week - but the contentiousness here seems to me to be more a matter of a few people using textual styles of communication that allow for either a jokey or a hostile reading depending on where the reader is coming from; and, what some posters may have seen as a steamroller towards setting up an IK from among a group of posters they don't recognize and objecting to that. So both substantive disagreement that has been working out as people discuss in earnest, and, some hostility, a little genuine and a little based on mutual misunderstanding.
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Mar 24, 2023 16:14
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The main spot of contention seems to be this: Some folks felt it made sense to suggest a long-time wise veteran of many a Mafia as an IK, because experience, and it'd be someone they knew well. Some folks felt a person who didn't play Mafia much any more or perhaps represented a group of friends they were not integrated with would not be a person they'd implicitly trust with sensitive issues. These are both valid viewpoints. They both come from a place of wanting to help and be good. They are well-intentioned and heartfelt and we can recognize people saying each of these things have good in their hearts. And there is no deadline. We can agree today not to make a new IK and change our minds next month or in six months or whenever, after more consideration.
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Mar 24, 2023 16:18
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Leperflesh posted:I've seen threads get far more angry at one another - like, this week - but the contentiousness here seems to me to be more a matter of a few people using textual styles of communication that allow for either a jokey or a hostile reading depending on where the reader is coming from; and, what some posters may have seen as a steamroller towards setting up an IK from among a group of posters they don't recognize and objecting to that. So both substantive disagreement that has been working out as people discuss in earnest, and, some hostility, a little genuine and a little based on mutual misunderstanding. This is a good take.
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Mar 24, 2023 16:18
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Cloacamazing! posted:If you actually think my goal with that post was to build a giant ignore list of people who have not apologized in the correct way and to discourage the reporting of abuse, kindly go gently caress yourselves. I apologize if my post came off that way, that wasn't my intention. My read of your post, inclusive of the "dont be a dick" part, was that a big reason you didn't believe that the matter had worked itself out was because people hadn't apologized. I took that to mean that you still thought there were some other posters that needed to apologize since some already had, which I don't necessarily disagree with! I was just trying to say my personal view was that since there had been some apologies and the conversation had moved forward that I didn't think more apologies were needed to resolve that situation. I clearly have misread something so I'm sorry about that. I definitely agreed with the overall point that "dont be a dick" could and should be more emphasized in the community - I came back and played a game recently and because of some attitudes in it probably won't be trying again for a bit. I definitely am not trying to be the cause of any animosity in the community here, so I really am sorry.
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Mar 24, 2023 16:20
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It's loving great. After several days of seeing people get ganged up in this thread I finally build up my courage to say something and the next thing that happens it several people accuse me of loving enabling abusers. Wonderful. Sweet. Great. I'm out.
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Mar 24, 2023 16:34
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Sub Rosa posted:I think "Don't be a dick" does sum it up well, and it certainly has seemed like "be a dick" is what many of the legacy Mafia players thought Mafia was, and to that extent Mafia has been better since they have left, and I'm sad they are back. This is exactly the same thing, but in reverse. It's just as cliquey and the sentiment that led to a bunch of people popping in to troll. Your reason for doing so is different, but the outcome is just as insular The "old" crew used to be more of a bag of dicks to each other because no one really internalized it. Why do you think that they still stick around or are part of the community? At least for me, it's because there were plenty of relationships forged here that still exist. That would not be the case if we just hated each other Has the way we interact with one another changed since then? Sure. And I think you'll find many good faith efforts in that direction from the people posting here regardless of when they started playing mafia. See: how people stopped picking up the rope once intention and phrasing was cleared up
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Mar 24, 2023 16:34
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Cloacamazing! posted:It's loving great. After several days of seeing people get ganged up in this thread I finally build up my courage to say something and the next thing that happens it several people accuse me of loving enabling abusers. Wonderful. Sweet. Great. I'm out. Nobody here is saying you’re doing that at all, rather that people in the past co-opted similar language to their own harmful benefit. There’s no reason to think that anyone here intends to do that but given the potential for problems down the road that we’ve seen firsthand, we just want a bit more nuance to the discussion.
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Mar 24, 2023 16:38
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Cloacamazing! posted:It's loving great. After several days of seeing people get ganged up in this thread I finally build up my courage to say something and the next thing that happens it several people accuse me of loving enabling abusers. Wonderful. Sweet. Great. I'm out. This seems to be how you are taking it rather than the actual intent. People are addressing potential concerns in a somewhat reasonable way Taking a break is probably a good choice
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Mar 24, 2023 16:41
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CCKeane posted:Right, so a major issue that happened recently is people felt that they couldn't talk openly about what happened because people called them dicks/abusers for raising the issue, and responded aggressively that they were crossing a line for discussing it with other players/raising the issue. This isn't a hypothetical situation, it's something that happened directly, right? Yes, this directly happened and my return to mafia was prompted by knowing that these people wouldn't be around. I'd always flirted with coming back in my head but I always found an excuse not to and it seems really obvious to me now that I kept finding those excuses because I was just uncomfortable posting here.
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Mar 24, 2023 16:45
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These kinda posts aren't helping anybody.
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Mar 24, 2023 16:48
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Squiggly posted:It's just as cliquey Squiggly posted:The "old" crew used to be more of a bag of dicks to each other because no one really internalized it. Calling wanting to exclude dickish behavior that will hurt people and drive people away cliquey is basically "you are the real bigot because you are bigoted towards bigots"
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Mar 24, 2023 16:50
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Cloacamazing! posted:It's loving great. After several days of seeing people get ganged up in this thread I finally build up my courage to say something and the next thing that happens it several people accuse me of loving enabling abusers. Wonderful. Sweet. Great. I'm out. Clo, respectfully, I don’t think that’s what just happened. I think folks are saying there’s kind of a fine line between calling people out for being a dick and having a culture wherein the very idea of being a dick is so oppressive bad things can occur. I don’t think you are suggesting the latter but a lot of people who lived through the nastiness are a little sensitive to that. I truly don’t feel anyone said you were enabling abusers.
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Mar 24, 2023 16:55
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Yami Fenrir posted:These kinda posts aren't helping anybody. Yeah that's why I pointed it out. Telling people to "gently caress off" for talking about concerns is not on.
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Mar 24, 2023 16:57
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New school, c’mon. Yes the old crew came back and shook up our community and I’m sure many of you are frustrated about how it’s been so far. But no one gets to exclude anyone out of this community just because there is friction. Just like they don’t get to come back and lord over y’all because they played mafio in 2012 or whatever. We need to try to come together as a community, please. It can be done.
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Mar 24, 2023 16:58
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Pinterest Mom posted:Yeah that's why I pointed it out. I'm talking about yours. You know cloaca's already frustrated, no need to be pedantic to them. Not the first time I've seen people fuel the flames with that kind of behavior.
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Mar 24, 2023 16:58
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Yami Fenrir posted:I'm talking about yours. You two are very level headed, please don’t contribute to this atm.
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Mar 24, 2023 16:59
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This whole new crew vs old crew thing is so dumb, it's not real! We're all just posters! One person said something that was kinda dickish, a bunch of other people responded in a dickish way and some took it too far and then apologized. It doesn't have to turn into a holy war based on how long you've played Mafia
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Mar 24, 2023 17:00
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Jose Valasquez posted:This whole new crew vs old crew thing is so dumb, it's not real! We're all just posters! Fully fuckin’ agreed here.
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Mar 24, 2023 17:02
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Jose Valasquez posted:This whole new crew vs old crew thing is so dumb, it's not real! We're all just posters!
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Mar 24, 2023 17:02
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if this all started because Leperflesh asked us if we need an IK because of some shithead running weird games I'm going to pout
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Mar 24, 2023 17:33
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death cob for cutie posted:if this all started because Leperflesh asked us if we need an IK because of some shithead running weird games I'm going to pout it's all of us, we are the Idiot Kings
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Mar 24, 2023 17:39
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some of us are Idiot Queens I'm an Idiot Quing myself
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Mar 24, 2023 17:40
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Sub Rosa posted:And the new crew doesn't try to exclude people who might internalize it to try to maintain some valueless desire to be a bag of dicks to each other. This is absolutely the most mafia way to respond to my post 
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Mar 24, 2023 17:42
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death cob for cutie posted:if this all started because Leperflesh asked us if we need an IK because of some shithead running weird games I'm going to pout I think I see the problem here. ##vote Leperfish
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Mar 24, 2023 17:48
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oh you're a SAD IQ you'd be perfect, you do it, if you can handle the trashfires over there this'd be a piece of cake I'm kidding
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Mar 24, 2023 17:51
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Jose Valasquez posted:This whole new crew vs old crew thing is so dumb, it's not real! We're all just posters! Wheres my pepsi kendall jenner
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Mar 24, 2023 17:52
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Squiggly posted:Wheres my pepsi kendall jenner Shove it up your rear end you loser!!!!!! (Stated in a very kind and loving way between old friends)
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Mar 24, 2023 17:58
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In Defense of Dickishness in an Internet Party Game My time playing Mafia was a tremendous benefit to my life. As much as we might wish it otherwise, the world has people with malicious motivations in it or those with motivations or values that are structurally different than your own. Sometimes it's to someone's advantage to get you to get angry or emotional. Sometimes someone getting emotional or angry is feigned or used for manipulation. Sometimes someone is trying to hide that their incentives or goals are different than yours. Often you need to convince people to do something where your evidence isn't as weak as you'd prefer. Having a game environment where one can experience the full gamut of those behaviors in a low risk environment has been an absolute blessing. Dealing with people who are being intentionally dickish has helped me manage my own responses to those types of people in work settings. I've used mafia skills to realize that a partner in a different organization has different goals that I wasn't aware of several times. Learning how to persuade strongly opposed people, even when your facts or data are weak, to make a good decision is something I use almost weekly. I wouldn't have been nearly as successful in my career over the last 10 years without the experience of playing in a somewhat agro mafia environment. As someone who is naturally conflict adverse by nature and nurture and who is prone to taking things very personally, I can't speak strongly enough of how valuable my time with a bunch of dicks and assholes has been in my life.
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Mar 24, 2023 18:02
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Currently no games have really happened so all the discussion about meanness is about meanness in the thread as opposed to games H T H
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Mar 24, 2023 18:07
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wins32767 posted:In Defense of Dickishness in an Internet Party Game I completely agree with all of this
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Mar 24, 2023 18:07
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Jump King posted:Currently no games have really happened so all the discussion about meanness is about meanness in the thread as opposed to games H T H Sub Rosa posted:...some valueless desire to be a bag of dicks to each other. I was responding to this (and other similar comments).
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Mar 24, 2023 18:14
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Jose Valasquez posted:This whole new crew vs old crew thing is so dumb, it's not real! We're all just posters! Sandwolf posted:We need to try to come together as a community, please. It can be done. All of this please.
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Mar 24, 2023 18:18
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CapitalistPig posted:All of this please. I think the thing to bring this community together is
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