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CainFortea posted:I mean, there's the whole green vs purple thing showing that even among the younger races you aren't always going to comprehend each other's societies. As an idiot super fan, I just want all of the backstory and lore no matter how pointless.
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May 8, 2023 18:53
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I like the gaping holes of lore. The unknown unknowns. It makes the universe seem larger, more real and much stranger.
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May 8, 2023 18:59
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Rappaport posted:Right, but we understand on a general level those sorts of things. That makes the Drazi relatable, even if it is dumb. There is nothing relatable or understandable about the Vorlons. Other than them being custodians and so forth, but that still leaves their society incomprehensible. OK: Imagine you are effectively immortal, have no material body, can telepathically link to others of your species, and can split your essence across multiple other beings (including bio-engineered telepath-carriers, people "sensitive" or otherwise attuned to you, and possibly pieces of organic technology). Can we imagine that? Sure. Can we really imagine how being like that for over ONE MILLION YEARS would change our society? Not at all. If the Vorlons are in a post-scarcity society, they have no need for money or other material things. As energy beings, they can float around anywhere (including in space). Presumably they need resources of a sort to breed their organic technology, but we can't really imagine much about organic technology because in the show, humans know next to nothing about it. Kosh's transport might survive on photosynthesis or need to be fed something from time to time; we don't know. We don't even know basic things like how the Vorlons and Shadows make decisions. They clearly are capable of disagreement (if Kosh and Ulkesh can disagree, surely any Shadow can disagree, unless it's one of those ironic situations where the shadows don't actually fight each other at all), but we don't see them spend minutes debating before they leave with Lorien, so either their leaders make the decision or they're entangled with each other in some way permitting rapid consensus. In any event, it seems possible that they don't function as individuals in the ways that we do, but closer to a gestalt entity or as a collective of some sort. That would also explain why they are fundamentally incapable of recognizing and addressing the flaws in their societies: they refashioned everything, including themselves, to reflect a set of values which cannot withstand the level of stability that their cultures imply. If Kosh deploys the excuse that he's "set in his ways" when he's the single First One (perhaps aside from Lorien) we meet who shows any ability of diverging from his people's "purpose" then the whole lot of them are in a kind of stasis that human society simply can't achieve because we don't live very long. JMS is clearly aiming to walk the edges of the original Lovecraftian "incomprehensible entities" here, with the First Ones just along the edges of what we can understand. The Vorlons keep almost everything about themselves secret, kill almost anyone entering their space, and redesign the few they do permit in (Lyta) while carefully controlling what they know or recall once they leave. The Shadows are even more secretive when not on the warpath, but seem much more willing to give their servants tools of various sorts (ranging from Technomage tech to access to Keepers and other organic technology); we barely see the Shadows themselves on-screen and the only time one speaks in a form we can understand is in their final appearance. All we can know about them is what is implied from their roles in the plot, and that hints at Kosh's appreciation for beauty but tells us very little about the Vorlons and Shadows as a whole. Is Kosh an anomaly? We have little basis to decide, save that Ulkesh seems disinterested in beauty during the brief period we see him. Ultimately, we're seeing only what they want us to see, the fin of the shark, without any sense of what lies under the water.
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May 8, 2023 19:28
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Kosh didn't diverge from his people's "purpose" as such, he just had different methods. He put himself at risk to help the races unite against the shadows and was generally more kind, but the main point was still to try cultivating the younger races in a direction in opposition to the Shadows. Possibly Ulkesh was specifically chosen as a tough fighter Vorlon so that the Vorlons would be at less risk of losing another one of their own. And of course, the war was already on, it was no longer time for enigmatic observation and cultivation. With all the other First Ones, Lorien was already abnormal in deciding to stick around for the Vorlons and Shadows. Notably, we never actually meet any shadows, just their agents, who don't really illustrate much of all about the Shadows as a society (although the Mark Twain guy provokes a lot of questions). I don't think that Lovecraft is an apt comparison, since while the elder races may be unknowable and enigmatic, that's not so much considered a scary thing as a wonderful and glorious thing. It's not just a force beyond our comprehension, it's something that we may one day ascend to. It's a glimpse at the future, not just some misbegotten past. Old Star Trek had a lot of the idea of beings from beyond our current understanding floating around, but also there's a bit of a Lord of the Rings feel there. The whole War of the Ring was some long down the road extension of wars fought by elves and maiar and valar in times too ancient for men or hobbits or dwarves to remember, with powers that men are only vaguely aware of.
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May 8, 2023 21:36
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ultrafilter posted:It's this. The Shadows also may have shown Ivanova the recording she found in Voices of Authority that proved Clark was involved in Santiago's assassination because that allowed them to destabilize Earth. I don't think it was in the Shadows' interests to foster a human civil war at that moment, though. The Shadows want the Clark regime in power because they're the xenophobic fascists who will eventually be willing to drive humanity to war against their neighbors. The civil war is about a question that the Shadows already have a preferred answer/outcome for, they wouldn't have wanted humanity wasting its time and energy on fighting over that when there are other states/species to prove their dominance over (especially, in my view, the Minbari; I've long suspected the shadow-tech advanced destroyers were intended for an eventual rematch).
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May 8, 2023 21:57
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CainFortea posted:I mean, there's the whole green vs purple thing showing that even among the younger races you aren't always going to comprehend each other's societies. One of the things I appreciate about B5 is that.. well <--------- the incomprehensible cultural divide goes both ways.
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May 8, 2023 23:14
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SlothfulCobra posted:I don't think that Lovecraft is an apt comparison, since while the elder races may be unknowable and enigmatic, that's not so much considered a scary thing as a wonderful and glorious thing. It's not just a force beyond our comprehension, it's something that we may one day ascend to. It's a glimpse at the future, not just some misbegotten past. Old Star Trek had a lot of the idea of beings from beyond our current understanding floating around, but also there's a bit of a Lord of the Rings feel there. The whole War of the Ring was some long down the road extension of wars fought by elves and maiar and valar in times too ancient for men or hobbits or dwarves to remember, with powers that men are only vaguely aware of. It absolutely is for the Shadows: ancient race, people never return from their homeworld, their name is unpronounceable, the Eye can speak directly to people and command them to do things based on "knowing" their "name," they provide cyber-organic modifications to their followers, their ships scream in your mind when they appear... yes, there's the superficial Mordor/Sauron connection, but if you push that too far you realize Lorien is the Balrog and the whole metaphor starts to collapse. But before it does, the Minbari are obviously the elves. That's pretty on the nose. And Kosh can maybe be a maiar, though I suppose that makes Ulkesh Saruman and the whole thing starts to collapse again. The show does endorse the idea that humans/Minbari will end up like the Vorlons, an angelic/maiar-equivalent (although that contradicts both scripture and LotR). Maybe they're closer to the Hyperboreans or to the Elder Things in the Mythos, given their own Thirdspace-style "mistakes." I am old enough I consider only classic Trek to be "old Star Trek" and despite having Robert Bloch as a writer, it never went very far in a Lovecraft direction. Newer Trek has shown more willingness, but usually blinks; the Q should be beyond our understanding but really aren't, and the Borg changed categories pretty fast, too. But that's a story for another thread. A.o.D. posted:the incomprehensible cultural divide goes both ways. "That's what... it's all about." Although Londo does come around on Rebo and Zooty eventually.
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May 9, 2023 00:31
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Rebo and Zooty are a funny example to use because everyone in-universe understands them, even if they don't find them funny. They're only incomprehensible to modern-day humans despite being a popular Earth comedy act.
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May 9, 2023 01:51
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:I don't think it was in the Shadows' interests to foster a human civil war at that moment, though. The Shadows want the Clark regime in power because they're the xenophobic fascists who will eventually be willing to drive humanity to war against their neighbors. The civil war is about a question that the Shadows already have a preferred answer/outcome for, they wouldn't have wanted humanity wasting its time and energy on fighting over that when there are other states/species to prove their dominance over (especially, in my view, the Minbari; I've long suspected the shadow-tech advanced destroyers were intended for an eventual rematch). Morden shows up to talk with the Clark regime and Psy Corp so I agree.
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May 9, 2023 10:40
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The gag with Rebo and Zooty is that we don't get them because we don't have the context. It's not that saying "zoot zoot" is inherently funny to future people, it's a reference to some comedy bit that we have never heard. We're supposed to be empathizing with Lochley in that episode, who has no idea why anyone likes this or why they're all laughing. When the audience repeats the phrase "with a machine", it's clearly because this is a well-worn bit of patter that they include in their act, but since we don't know their act, we, like Lochley, are left out. I believe JMS compared her reaction with that of someone who isn't a Three Stooges fan upon seeing bits of their act. (Just yelling "why I oughtta" isn't funny out of context, either.)
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May 9, 2023 14:02
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Discussing something is not making GBS threads up the thread! Thank you. I just didn't want to dominate the thread with my particular interpretation. What people have wrote above have been really good takes in my opinion.
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May 9, 2023 18:28
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The B5 new watcher saying they like Talia and hope she comes back.... oof.  Open Source Idiom posted:Talia is the big missed opportunity of the show for me. But, realistically, I doubt the network would have ever let her and Ivanova be a couple, and that's a big part of why I feel so annoyed that the character was written out. This whole thing is complex to the extreme. Pat Tallman left the show because her agent was a dick. She wanted to come back, JMS wanted her back, but her agent played hardball thinking she was irreplaceable. In JMS' eyes, everyone is replaceable (to whit, Sinclair), so that got hosed. By the time Pat and JMS figured out that her agent was the shadow agent (pun intended) it was too late. So, we got Talia, and a lot of her story line was actually Lyta's. Talia was was supposed to come back after being outed as a sleeper agent at some point. However, mid season 2, Andrea Thomson and Jerry Doyle broke up in a very nasty fashion to the point that they couldn't work together. Also Andrea Thomson got it in her head that she was becoming a big star and she demanded to be a bigger part of the show. JMS said she would, but slowly, which wasn't good enough for Thompson. So she left, which opened up the door for Lyta to come back. And JMS has Talia dissected to make sure would never come back. Which speaks volumes for how much Thompson must have pissed him off, because he almost always leaves the door cracked open for people to come back. I never liked the way Talia was portrayed by Thomson anyway. She never gelled with the crew the way Tallman did. And IRL the B5 crew are super tight with each other, but Thompson NEVER appears with them to this day, so she must have burned a massive amount of bridges.
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May 10, 2023 14:44
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Doctor Zero posted:
That's one way to say she's still alive, I guess.
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May 10, 2023 14:57
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https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/m...m_medium=social Babylon 5: The Road Home will continue the story he started in the 1990s, with the log line stating, “Travel across the galaxy with John Sheridan as he unexpectedly finds himself transported through multiple timelines and alternate realities in a quest to find his way back home. Along the way he reunites with some familiar faces, while discovering cosmic new revelations about the history, purpose, and meaning of the Universe.”
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May 10, 2023 17:14
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Asteroid Alert posted:https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/m...m_medium=social They've recast the people who've died: quote:The voice cast also includes Paul Guyet as Zathras and Jeffery Sinclair, Anthony Hansen as Michael Garibaldi, Mara Junot as Reporter and Computer Voice, Phil LaMarr as Dr. Stephen Franklin, Piotr Michael as David Sheridan, Andrew Morgado as G’Kar and Rebecca Riedy as Delenn.
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May 10, 2023 17:32
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Huh. Not at all what I was imagining.
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May 10, 2023 18:21
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Very odd premise. I can only guess that Sheridan, having joined with Lorien/the other Old Ones "Beyond the Rim" instead of, like...ACTUALLY dying (I think the "Sleeping in Light" voiceover said they never found his body?), is now trying out some sort of "Wesley Crusher/Traveler"-esque powers to go through time/space?
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May 10, 2023 18:31
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Sounds like it might be that plus more of a What If thing instead of Crusher thing.
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May 10, 2023 18:53
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CainFortea posted:Sounds like it might be that plus more of a What If thing instead of Crusher thing. Thinking more It's a Wonderful Life.
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May 10, 2023 19:11
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Doctor Zero posted:This whole thing is complex to the extreme. Pat Tallman left the show because her agent was a dick. She wanted to come back, JMS wanted her back, but her agent played hardball thinking she was irreplaceable. In JMS' eyes, everyone is replaceable (to whit, Sinclair), so that got hosed. By the time Pat and JMS figured out that her agent was the shadow agent (pun intended) it was too late. Well, Tallman explains in Pleasure Thresholds why she left the show, and it had nothing to do with her agent: During auditions for Lyta, she knew one of the "suits." "When I first arrived in LA, I called a friend from college who was now producing. He was very generous and helped me meet a lot of casting people around town. Then, he wanted to have an affair with me, which I thought was inappropriate because he was married. It did not end well." (34) When the show was picked up, she received an offer a third of what she was paid on the pilot. In fact, it was SAG scale: $1200 per episode. (She says she received the equivalent of $5,000 for the pilot.) They refused to budge. Paying daycare for her son would cost more than an episode would pay, so she refused the offer. Following that, she called JMS, who had been told she demanded $10,000 per episode. So when the opportunity arose, he rehired her. "Fast-forward... and I am at a B5 Christmas party, happy and employed... The Icky Suit comes in. He sits down at my table and looks around. Waiting to make sure we are not overheard, he hisses, "How did you get back on this show?" I shrug. Innocent. Happy. He hits on me. Seriously." (79) As for Andrea Thompson, I don't know what your source is for that information, but it is inaccurate in several ways. Thompson was married to Jerry Doyle from 1995 to 1997 (source: Wikipedia). Thompson departed B5 in the episode Divided Loyalties, first aired 11 October 1995 (source: IMDB). Their marriage ended in 1997, which would have been during Season 4. Nor is it true that Thompson never appears with the B5 crew to this day: in fact, she appears in the Youtube thumbnail for the reunion panel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0w2pK_uBpXQ Fairly late in that event, Doyle starts talking about when he broke his arm (filming Severed Dreams) and going to the LA ER afterward, and Andrea talks briefly about coming down there and trying to find him: "I said, 'He's a very tall man. He's wearing, like, a sci-fi uniform and a lot of makeup.' And they said, 'We get loads of those here.'" drat it, now I'm missing Mira and Stephen again. (And maybe even Jerry Doyle a little bit.)
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May 10, 2023 19:52
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Action Jacktion posted:They've recast the people who've died: This premise has a good setup for being a really emotional episode.
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May 10, 2023 20:34
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While that official version of the 20th reunion video is higher quality and easier to watch, this fan cam version has maybe one of my absolute favorite things at this specific time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sv_TBTgnMsk&t=509s (keep an eye on Scoggins and Mumy)
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May 10, 2023 22:45
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Clouseau posted:While that official version of the 20th reunion video is higher quality and easier to watch, this fan cam version has maybe one of my absolute favorite things at this specific time: lmfao
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May 10, 2023 22:55
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"Woo-hoo"?
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May 10, 2023 22:57
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Narsham posted:Well, Tallman explains in Pleasure Thresholds why she left the show, and it had nothing to do with her agent: I should have prefaced that with ‘IIRC’. And the money mismatch sounds like what I was talking about. I can get the script book out where JMS talks about it in more detail if anyone is interested. After all the truth is a 3 edged sword and all. As far as Thomson goes, I’ve never seen her with the cast in a video myself. I’m glad if they get along - while I didn’t much care for her acting I have no beef with her.
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May 10, 2023 22:57
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Asteroid Alert posted:https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/m...m_medium=social Absolutely not what I expected but, heck, it could be a lot of fun. And I think something a little weird and off-the-wall is probably a good thing for B5 to finish up with, at least in its original form.
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May 11, 2023 00:38
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Anybody else getting that Superman walk across America storyline vibes from the premise for this movie?
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May 11, 2023 04:30
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Asteroid Alert posted:https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/m...m_medium=social Sounds like it's going to be a lame animated nostalgia bait clip show of sorts. And I guess it confirms that the animation style is going to be crappy Dragon Prince CGI with Batman & Superman: Battle of the Super Sons being the producers' last credits. Deakul fucked around with this message at 14:56 on May 11, 2023 |
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May 11, 2023 14:53
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Deakul posted:Sounds like it's going to be a lame animated nostalgia bait clip show of sorts. The comparison that keeps popping into my head is the Marvel What If? show on Disney+
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May 11, 2023 14:58
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As I say through the "Across the Spiderverse" trailer a couple of days ago, I was just thinking how the multiverse is rapidly starting to get played out after Dr Strange 2, No Way Home, Into the Spiderverse, The Flash 2... There's lots of branch points in the series where things could have gone very different in the story, so I guess there's a lot of material there. And that really would be "a love letter to the fans" because that sounds like it would be totally incomprehensible to anyone else. That's the real curse of Babylon 5. There was so much story that continuing it for a new audience is impossible, and catering to the existing one is difficult because that's a very finite, and probably shrinking, number of people.
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May 11, 2023 15:35
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Sounds pretty meh tbh, i'll catch any interesting clips on YT after it's released.
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May 11, 2023 15:45
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Is this new show supposed to be what happens to Sheridan after he leaves with Lorien?
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May 11, 2023 16:10
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I don't expect it will change my life, but it will probably be interesting to watch.
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May 11, 2023 16:11
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Gyrotica posted:I don't expect it will change my life, but it will probably be interesting to watch.
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May 11, 2023 16:25
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At least it can't be worse than Legend of the Rangers! Right...?
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May 11, 2023 16:27
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Angry Salami posted:At least it can't be worse than Legend of the Rangers! Right...? Cartoon Sheridan punching things in the air for his life. Actually, you know what? Can they make this a multiverse of stupid thing where Sheridan meets up with Scrooge McDuck, with David Tennant going at it? I don't even care what kind of adventure they'd have, just let Scrooge commentate on the Babylon 5 universe for 45 minutes and I'm happy. I think Scrooge and Londo would be friends 
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May 11, 2023 16:35
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Asteroid Alert posted:https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/m...m_medium=social
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May 11, 2023 19:11
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Action Jacktion posted:They've recast the people who've died: Yeah, not a fan of this choice as I've said before. JMS posted:Andreas is gone...and G'Kar with him, because no one else can ever play that role, or ever will. "Oh, wait, I need to make an animated thing that could use literally any former cast member or even introduce new characters to give an interesting perspective to the show? Nah, let's just re-cast G'Kar. Nobody will notice." I suppose it was inevitable, given the entertainment industry's constant recycling and re-imagining of old content. But this feels worse than usual.
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May 11, 2023 19:42
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On the other hand the change in voice actor for Uncle Iroh in Avatar went perfectly fine, and the show was better for keeping the character when the VA passed.
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May 11, 2023 19:44
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bartolimu posted:Yeah, not a fan of this choice as I've said before. JMS tweeted that he asked the surviving cast if it was ok to recast and they all said yes.
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May 11, 2023 20:29
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