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the holy poopacy posted:Most of those stable and prosperous societies are propped up by violence against an oppressed underclass. Yeah exactly. Some parts of the population get some peace for small amounts of time but in general even the most prosperous and peaceful nations are only that way because of the marginalization of others. Which can be easy to overlook when you aren't the one who happens to be suffering. It's a bit of a moot point because KSBD is still a work of fiction and does not have to conform to real world standards of anything. Though I don't think real world examples refute what Maya is saying here. JuniperCake fucked around with this message at 04:06 on Jun 10, 2023 |
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Jun 9, 2023 23:20
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Tenebrais posted:So. Is that The Question? And if so, who answers?
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Jun 9, 2023 23:41
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Let's have an argument. "I have just killed you." "No you haven't." That's it. That's the Sword of Maybe. It can kill a god if you can convince the god you've killed it. But it works both ways. Allison must assert her will to live over Maya's will to kill her.
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Jun 9, 2023 23:53
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Yeah I don’t think “hey, the world is amoral and those who would make a less violent world seem to require violence to do it, and all peace is impermanent” is actually baby poo poo. It’s a pretty horrifying statement, that there is no final revolution, no end to history, no permanent good. This is an existentially nauseating thing to think about! Especially in the context of figures like Incubus who draw justification for their actions from that very impermanence and that inevitability of violence. “Violence is inescapable” is like, a key concept in the comic. Now, is Allison’s response going to be “sure but gently caress that, we should do what we can and live with purpose, give me the sword”? Maybe! It would fit her “if I’m in hell I guess I’ll enjoy myself” from before, and Kassardis’ forever running towards an unreachable utopia.
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Jun 10, 2023 00:15
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also these are actual gods talking, primarily limited in their capacity to remake the world by the horizons of their own imagination, not some fuckin schmo with a few soldiers to boss around or child of the metropole reassuring themselves that the logic of empire is eternal and unquestionable. Allison literally has the power to establish a permanent end to violence if she so desires, all the material obstacles constraining ordinary people have been solved, the remaining issue is what that would look like.
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Jun 10, 2023 01:20
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The whole point of Maya teaching it this way is that she knows it's a difficult question. It's easy to say violence is bad but hard to actually follow through with an alternative. But Allison is poised to inherit the literal throne of God - she may actually have the power to change things for the better. She's going to have to figure that poo poo out or just end up perpetuating the cycle. Maya is trying to make her the person she could not become - if it was simple she would have done it herself.
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Jun 10, 2023 01:36
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Good sound design on this page. The little tp tp tp from Maya's sandals as she paces, followed by the —shhhhh as she takes a stance to strike.
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Jun 10, 2023 02:06
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is a page really complete without a foreboding DOOM onomatopoeia
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Jun 10, 2023 02:21
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Maya got wormed ages ago and this is gog usurping the key. Learn to read the text fools
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Jun 10, 2023 03:42
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Joe Slowboat posted:Yeah I don’t think “hey, the world is amoral and those who would make a less violent world seem to require violence to do it, and all peace is impermanent” is actually baby poo poo. i think kassardis is even more important than he seems, and bandaging up the worst people in the entire universe is part of how to smash the wheel examples: mottom, mammon, solomon david
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Jun 10, 2023 03:54
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Maya didn't say Toki wo tomare, 0/10 page
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Jun 10, 2023 04:56
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Reclaimer posted:*your pals *your pal
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Jun 10, 2023 06:22
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IMJack posted:Let's have an argument. The Maybe Sword is, plain and simple, a lie. The sharpest thing in existence, if you can convince existence to believe it to be so. Royalty works in much the same way.
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Jun 10, 2023 06:40
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:also these are actual gods talking, primarily limited in their capacity to remake the world by the horizons of their own imagination, not some fuckin schmo with a few soldiers to boss around or child of the metropole reassuring themselves that the logic of empire is eternal and unquestionable. Allison literally has the power to establish a permanent end to violence if she so desires, all the material obstacles constraining ordinary people have been solved, the remaining issue is what that would look like. She may have the power to make, but first she has to protect, and then she'll have to protect what she makes after. How does she protect anything against Jagganoth and the next Jagganoth a million years down the line?
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Jun 10, 2023 06:49
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I'm not worried. She's only maybe dead.
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Jun 10, 2023 07:08
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We're finally getting to the part where the true hero of the comic, 24 Liminal Blossom Punctures the Heart of the Unrepentant, Deliciously is (re) introduced to the story.
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Jun 10, 2023 07:13
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M_Gargantua posted:She may have the power to make, but first she has to protect, and then she'll have to protect what she makes after. Create a system in which jagganoths are not produced to begin with? Alternatively, even if violence may be inescapable you could still change what violence actually is, and the conceivable bounds of it? Resetting the world to go 100000 years before another Cain and Abel incident wouldn't be a flawless record but it'd be a pretty drat good run
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Jun 10, 2023 07:14
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0.000% of Royalty has been built. Evil child-murdering Demiurges still rule the world with a poo poo-eating grin. All she has managed to do is make herself *sad*. She is starting to suspect Meti *hosed her over* personally with her training. It has, however, made her into a very, very good swordsman with something like a university degree in Cutting. Instead of seeking Royalty, she now teaches a precise technique of this grotesque, duplicitous art.
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Jun 10, 2023 07:58
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Allison self realizes she is not in fact dead and has a choice. edit: you learn the maybe sword by being sure that is it there, it helps if you have felt it.
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Jun 10, 2023 08:10
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Shadowlyger posted:The Maybe Sword is, plain and simple, a lie. The sharpest thing in existence, if you can convince existence to believe it to be so. On further consideration, I have misspoken. It's not the Maybe Sword that is a lie, but the cut that it makes. The Cut is a lie.
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Jun 10, 2023 08:21
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I'm reminded of two children playing pretend. Except it's not pretend. It's very real. Or is it?
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Jun 10, 2023 08:29
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Just grit your teeth and walk it off Alice
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Jun 10, 2023 08:33
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Grognan posted:Allison self realizes she is not in fact dead and has a choice. Nah. She needs to convince Maya that she didn't cut her. Or need to cut her. Or something along those lines. Retroactively negate the "maybe"
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Jun 10, 2023 11:55
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A Terrible Person posted:Nah. She needs to convince Maya that she didn't cut her. Or need to cut her. Or something along those lines. I think she needs to convince herself and the world that she wasnt
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Jun 10, 2023 12:08
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She needs to pull a Zoss and decide she isn’t going to be stopped even if her head (or upper torso here) isn’t attached.
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Jun 10, 2023 12:17
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She can already stand on a nonexistent leg with the power of gently caress You, That's Why, what's a few more bodily functions added to the list?
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Jun 10, 2023 12:38
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Phy posted:YOU HAVE BEEN KILLED. DO YOU WANT TO DIE FROM IT? Y/N
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Jun 10, 2023 12:47
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W.T. Fits posted:I'm reminded of two children playing pretend. The Maybe sword doesn't work because I put up my forcefield. And not just any forcefield, my anti anti-forcefield forcefield 
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Jun 10, 2023 12:54
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I'm not cut! I'm not cut! I continue to insist as I slowly shrink and turn into a girl who has been cut in half
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Jun 10, 2023 13:00
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rndmnmbr posted:She can already stand on a nonexistent leg with the power of gently caress You, That's Why, what's a few more bodily functions added to the list? Seriously. You could hardly conceive an easier test for the Queen of Furious Dumbassery
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Jun 10, 2023 13:14
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YaketySass posted:0.000% of Royalty has been built. Evil child-murdering Demiurges still rule the world with a poo poo-eating grin. All she has managed to do is make herself *sad*. She is starting to suspect Meti *hosed her over* personally with her training. It has, however, made her into a very, very good swordsman with something like a university degree in Cutting. Instead of seeking Royalty, she now teaches a precise technique of this grotesque, duplicitous art. You know who else challenged the cyclical nature of the universe? Contact Mike.
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Jun 10, 2023 14:22
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M_Gargantua posted:She may have the power to make, but first she has to protect, and then she'll have to protect what she makes after. that's the "if the world rewards violence" part. Jagganoths don't just spontaneously manifest out of thin air on a regular schedule, he was created at great expense by the most powerful people on the world to help maintain their control. He's a big fuckin sword the previous administration chose to live by and are gonna end up dying by; he's effectively impervious to violence, to which Allison's go-to solution is to seek out previously unimaginable levels of violence, which kinda sets the tone for her problem solving going forward and yeah guarantees more and worse Jagganoths in the future A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 15:28 on Jun 10, 2023 |
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Jun 10, 2023 15:26
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Solomon David is also worth considering: he got to his position through massive violence, and he maintained order through violence, but even more than that: he was aware that all it would take to topple him would be one person who can do even more violence than he can. The tournament was supposed to be about finding them, but as we see from Jagganoth, that was a vain hope. Someone who could do more violence than him could just show up whenever. This doesn’t just mean that any society can be wrecked by a stupid rear end in a top hat with sufficient violence, though that is true; it also means that the society which exists needs to have some threshold of violence it can resist. How do you resist a violent antagonist? Well, you do violence more effectively, you have institutional violence-doers of some caliber, like a military or a peacekeeping force or a militia, etc. While one may beat swords into plowshares, the question is how to have swords in reserve without coming to be ruled by them. There’s a lot of solutions a society can put forward, but none of them are permanent and perfect. Violence has yet to be brought to heel; most solutions suggested are along the lines of “people in the new and better world will have no desire to do violence” which would be cool, but it’s a purely hypothetical social order that neither needs to defend itself from other societies nor has any violence performed by the state. E: which means I think that actually the answer that makes the most sense to me is “There is no permanent solution but we can make the conditions under which we grapple with the problem a lot better.”
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Jun 10, 2023 15:38
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I feel like this theoretical will be like that "invention of lying" movie, which I haven't actually seen - here's this beautiful universe where things are peaceful. One day some body decides "what if I just take this thing I want?" And discovers that there is nothing stopping him. Violence invented, peaceful universe in chaos and what is everyone to do? And if you, the narrator or God of this universe stop him, you have just invented violence in return.
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Jun 10, 2023 15:45
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YISUN had a universe without violence, and he decided to invent violence by killing himself, then fighting himself, then loving himself. Existence is contrast and conflict of one sort or another. The ideal world just leans more toward the loving than the fighting part.
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Jun 10, 2023 15:47
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Rotten Red Rod posted:She's going to have to figure that poo poo out or just end up perpetuating the cycle. Maya is trying to make her the person she could not become - if it was simple she would have done it herself.
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Jun 10, 2023 15:48
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I mean if stinky boi has already shrugged off being beheaded by the Maybe sword perhaps its not poo poo after all. Jagg will no sell that so hard Once Allison reassembles herself she should think about that!
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Jun 10, 2023 15:48
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maybe more swords as plowshares, like Maya using the sword as a laundry rack. Maya gave up her swords and lost her family. But if she had done her pruning with a sword she would have been ready on her vegetable farm Also Allison needs to stop reminding Maya she was to protect her, it keeps earning her increasing punches to the face (cut in half)
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Jun 10, 2023 15:52
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:that's the "if the world rewards violence" part. Jagganoths don't just spontaneously manifest out of thin air on a regular schedule, he was created at great expense by the most powerful people on the world to help maintain their control. He's a big fuckin sword the previous administration chose to live by and are gonna end up dying by; he's effectively impervious to violence, to which Allison's go-to solution is to seek out previously unimaginable levels of violence, which kinda sets the tone for her problem solving going forward and yeah guarantees more and worse Jagganoths in the future An immediate problem with Allison's plan to obtain unimaginable levels of violence is that, if she's able to stitch herself back together here through key-enhanced force of will, there's a pretty good chance that even if Jagganoth can be cut by it he could also un-cut himself with most of the demiurge keys and his own much stronger will. It's even possible that is the lesson that Maya is trying to impart here. So it might not even be about precipitating worse Jagganoths in the future, it might be about being impossible to remove even the current Jagganoth using the Maybe Sword.
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Jun 10, 2023 15:54
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M_Gargantua posted:The ideal world just leans more toward the loving than the fighting part. Someone photoshop Maya's head into this pls 
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