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Excerpts from “Venusian Industrial Development and the Interplanetary Economy,” published in March 1986 issue of Japanese Economic Review in collaboration with MOSA “In a Venusian aerostat habitat, the primary raw materials for industrial activity are most easily extracted from two sources: importation from outside Venus, or ISRU utilization of the Venusian atmosphere. The atmosphere of Venus is over 90 times denser than Earth’s on average, composed of 96.5% CO2, 3% N2, with the remainder being traces of SO2, H20 vapor, CO and Argon, with sulfuric acid producing the planet’s distinctive high-albedo clouds. While seemingly hostile, this is a massive reservoir of several of the chemical precursors to various useful industries for supporting human civilization [...] [...] Water is essential to life, both directly for human consumption and for producing oxygen and food via growing crops, but is in short supply in the Venusian atmosphere. However, it can be artificially created in-situ. Hydrogen can be extracted from the sulfuric acid clouds, and can then be used to process the abundant CO2 in the atmosphere into water and methane via the Sabatier process. The resulting methane byproduct is itself far from useless, as it can be processed into ethane, and from there polymerized via steam cracking into a variety of useful compounds and plastic precursors. The methane can also be reprocessed via methane pyrolysis to recover some of the initial hydrogen, leaving behind pure elemental carbon. All of these processes require large energy inputs, but Venus is not lacking in harnessable energy [...] [...] Raw carbon can be processed into carbon fibers, which have a number of uses well suited for construction on Venus. The fibers themselves can be used in filtration of high-temperature gasses, which is essential for any ISRU process on Venus. Carbon fiber composites can be very lightweight for their strength, well-suited for construction in an environment where buoyancy is always a consideration (hence their history of use in the aerospace industry). Different formulations can be very resistant to heat and corrosion, all useful properties for anything constructed to operate in the hotter lower atmosphere. TNE-based carbon fiber composites are only beginning to be studied, but their applications show promise [...] [...] All of these life-sustaining industries are largely dependent on inputs of molecular hydrogen, which is somewhat scarce on Venus. If truly large scale conventional industry, let alone the long-term goal of terraforming, is to proceed, it will require importations of hydrogen in enormous quantities, as well as mined metals and other resources difficult to extract from the Venusian surface. A suitable source of such is Jupiter and Saturn, the largest sources of hydrogen in the Solar System outside of the Sun itself. The Venusian aerostat design can be adapted to work on gas giants, collecting hydrogen from the atmosphere and sending pure hydrogen to Venus via packets fired from Mass Drivers [...] [...] Venus has resources that can be valuable to others in the Solar System. Simply in terms of conventional materials, the hyper-abundance of CO2 is valuable in certain applications. Mars, for instance, would require truly gargantuan amounts of greenhouse gasses to bolster its thin atmosphere enough to begin the process of terraforming. Venus also has large reserves of molecular nitrogen, as though it only makes up 3% of the atmosphere, the total mass of the atmosphere overall means it contains four times as much nitrogen as the entire atmosphere of Earth. Nitrogen is a useful inert gas if one wants to simulate earth standard nitrogen-oxygen air in a space habitat, so will always be in demand as long as space continues to be colonized [...] [...] Sorium can be extracted from the atmosphere via specialized air scrubbers, though not with perfect efficiency. But far more rare and valuable is the reserves of Gallicite, which is essential to the production of high-performance spaceship engines. The difficulty comes from the fact that it’s present as mineral deposits in the Venusian crust, under conditions of 740 K temps and 93 bar of supercritical CO2. Strictly speaking, TNE mines don’t have to be directly on the surface of a planet to extract Gallicite, but it does need to be relatively stationary over the deposit to function effectively. This poses a problem when working from an aerostat suspended in the troposphere subject to constant 100m/s winds. Economically extracting Gallicite will be an engineering challenge pushing the limits of modern TNE material science, remote robotics and modern space architecture [...] Asterite34 fucked around with this message at 02:18 on Jun 2, 2023 |
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Jun 2, 2023 02:15
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Let’s gooooooooooo
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Jun 2, 2023 02:18
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Mister Bates posted:June 1, 2483 We have returned.
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Jun 2, 2023 02:18
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Good to see this back, I mean it.
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Jun 2, 2023 02:38
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hell y7eah
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Jun 2, 2023 03:26
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nice
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Jun 2, 2023 05:53
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This is sweet, I was afraid the aurora curse had taken yet another victim
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Jun 2, 2023 07:32
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Hell yeah!
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Jun 2, 2023 07:50
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Welcome back comrades!
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Jun 2, 2023 08:03
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Mr.Fuzzywig posted:This is sweet, I was afraid the aurora curse had taken yet another victim The curse in this case was overtime. So, capitalism.
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Jun 2, 2023 08:03
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We are so back.
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Jun 2, 2023 08:14
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Good start to the afternoon.
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Jun 2, 2023 12:34
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Love it!
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Jun 2, 2023 21:43
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November 1, 1986 Space is getting to be a very busy place. Imagine the list of civilian ships running off the top of the screen for quite some distance; I'm going to have to start making them invisible soon or the screenshots will become unreadable. MOSA has completely ceased placing production orders for life support infrastructure for the Lunagrad colony - it is no longer necessary. The Lunar provisional government is more than capable of making those requests on its own, and the products are shipped and delivered without the Ministry having to directly involve itself at all. November 3, 1986  Another batch of mechanized infantry units are officially activated.  Each battalion is a formidable fighting force in its own right...  ...and they're not alone, either. The force the Interplanetary People's Army has assembled is small in absolute numbers, but well-trained, well-supplied, equipped with the finest in modern Trans-Newtonian technology, and augmented by the most advanced intelligence-gathering apparatus the world has ever seen. It boasts a core of hardened veterans of the Great Revolutionary War filling out its senior NCO positions, and the officer corps is a mix of veterans and promising young up-and-comers. Even the army as it exists now, if focused on a single target, would represent a potent force - and it is but a fraction of the IPA's intended final strength. Naval modernization efforts also continue apace, as do staff exercises to coordinate trans-interface warfare with Earth Guard Command. Whether on land, at sea, or in space, the People's Army will be ready to do their duty when called. November 10, 1986 A minor breakthrough is achieved in communication with the Minervans - namely, a determination that the alphabet we have discovered is a simplified constructed language intended specifically for use in space travel, because they have 'MANY LANGUAGES, NOT MUTUALLY INTELLIGIBLE'. This is to say that the text is designed to be easy to understand - although, of course, there is a problem, which is that it is designed to be easily understood by a completely different species. Still, it is a positive development. It also prompts smug reactions from your own Constructed Language Exploratory Committee, with one prominent member of the committee getting some news coverage for posting 'We told you it was a good idea' in a public Internetwork chat. November 17, 1986 A report on the feasibility of the proposed Bering Strait Bridge is presented in a conference room in the still-unfinished Arcology. The short version is that it is very much possible, provided the Big Diomede and Little Diomede islands are used as mid-point anchors for the bridge. The problem is that Little Diomede is inhabited by an indigenous community numbering approximately 150 souls, who from archaeological evidence have been there for approximately 3,000 years. It's a small island, only a few square miles, but large enough that the bridge could be built without actually displacing them - but it is still theirs, and they have officially petitioned for and received membership in the First Nations League. The League, when learning of the study, has tentatively offered to negotiate a lease of part of the island to build a bridge, on three conditions. - One, that we provide guarantees, enforced with substantial fines, that the construction will not cause undue disruption to the local way of life or to the local environment they depend on for survival. - Two, that an onramp to the bridge be built on the island and that its inhabitants be permitted to access it without having to pass through customs or requiring any documentation. - Three, that a second onramp/offramp be built on the currently uninhabited Big Diomede island, which, aside from the easement granted for the bridge, the islanders will do as they please with. Payments for the lease are to be made to the League in refined TNEs. The feasibility study, and the treaty offer, are referred to the People's Congress for review. November 23, 1986  Production of all prefabricated components for the Lunagrad spaceport are complete, and industrial efforts are redirected towards constructing the proposed mass driver facility (which I forgot to screenshot)  Humanity's now quite large civilian space fleet is immediately requisitioned to move it, and the construction crews that have been preparing the ground for it are ordered to stand by. November 25, 1986  The first wave of freighters has already arrived at the Moon before all of them have even finished loading, with the Cyclops II trailing far behind schedule due to an equipment malfunction and the Grigory Vakulenchuk delayed by an emergency maneuver to avoid a predicted debris strike. Most of the crew of the Cyclops II were born in this time and lived it from birth, and it's all very normal to them. A few of them were frozen in tubes for most of the twentieth century and suddenly woke up in this new world, and yet, somehow...it's still shockingly normal. A smooth transition from the drudgery of hauling freight across the ocean to the drudgery of hauling freight across the blackness of space. The view is much better, at least. December 1, 1986  Months of extensive preparatory work, the already-established Lunar rail network, millions of available laborers, and the prefabricated nature of the structures combined to make the final assembly the fastest and easiest part of the project. Work crews toiled away 24 hours a day for over a week throwing the complex together, not stopping for even a moment until it was ready. The facility is austere and sterile, spartan in its accommodations and brutally, pragmatically ugly in its architecture. It is also equipped with a state-of-the-art space traffic control facility, advanced semi-automated logistics systems, high-throughput cargo handling facilities, dedicated passenger terminals complete with pressurized connectors to the shuttles (for the first time, at long last, eliminating the need for arriving or departing passengers to EVA to their vessel), a rail station connecting it directly to Lunagrad City, Shackleton Crater, and a few other major sites of human habitation, and a gift shop. Recent immigrant to Lunagrad Buzz Aldrin cuts the ribbon, and the inaugural first cargo shuttle flight down to the new port, laden with construction materials as most are, is piloted by a comrade from Korea. The celebration is short and perfunctory - this port needs to be put to work, right now. With much less fanfare and much more official secrecy, less than a kilometer away, construction crews are also toiling away at the site that will soon house one of the LSDF's surface-to-orbit railgun batteries. Mister Bates fucked around with this message at 04:54 on Jun 15, 2023 |
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Jun 15, 2023 04:50
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Preemptively endorsing the proposed treaty Bering Strait Bridge lets gooooooo. 1st Division is almost done 
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Jun 15, 2023 23:50
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Salutations and warm greetings to our comrades in the Cominterp from the Popular Republic of Montana! It's gratifying to finally have secured ourselves well enough, and for North America to have grown comparatively safe and stable enough, for our membership to be accepted. Let me give you a brief rundown of our recent history and current situation. After the GRW broke out the former state of Montana was divided thanks to a variety of groups, interests, and ideological strands existing within the state at the time. Though fears of massive Soviet nuclear assault on the significant presence of US nuclear capabilities in the state were ultimately not to come to fruition, the state was not spared that hideous curse. Even now we are unable to discern who exactly initiated things, but growing dissent between rebellious elements centered in Great Falls and a strongly loyalist government in Helena came to blows during the American collapse, which ultimately resulted in the destruction of the former with nuclear weapons. However the effort caused massive dissent throughout the state against the Helena government, and their ability to project power collapsed beyond the city and its environs. This was, as you might imagine, a pretty hefty blow to a sparsely populated state, wiping out one of the putative leading factions, thoroughly delegitimizing the other, and dealing heavy damage to communications and travel within the state. We dissolved into a period of much more local government, with surviving towns and cities having no higher authority than a city board or mayor. Even so, the size and sparsely populated nature of the state insulated us from most of the consequences of nuclear detonations, with the exception of refugees who survived the destruction of Great Falls. We'd always had a practical need for self-reliance and as a result, were able to weather the situation comparatively well, but the unfortunate side effect is that it permitted the most hated enemy of all that is decent to flourish - fascism. In the state's west especially, cadres of fascists of various kinds worked hard to infiltrate or overthrow local governments, and were often successful. Clandestinely supported by the Helena government, who were and remain fanatically opposed to any sort of leftism as well as any suggestion of a post-USA American continent, these groups then embarked on political repression as well as mass killings or expulsions of 'undesirables'. Thankfully, the cities of Missoula and Bozeman both managed to resist these efforts, the former under a capitalist democracy largely unchanged from pre-GRW days and the latter under a socialist government. Though naturally loathe to work with the capitalists, the active and rising fascists were without question a greater threat, and we in Bozeman managed to find a compact of mutual support and defense. The main problem: Whilst most of the fascists were in smaller towns to the west and north of Missoula, the city of Butte lay between us, cutting us off from convenient travel and blighting much of southwestern Montana. In Bozeman we were able to secure ourselves comparatively well, with no real population to the south into Yellowstone, and long distances to the east before reaching Billings, who were enbroiled in violent internal struggle over their future direction. We could turn our militia almost exclusively to the north and west. Missoula had much less luck; to their east is Helena, to the south east Butte, and to the north and west various smaller fascist or loyalist aligned towns. Further west still lie the true Rocky Mountains, with more white nationalists in northern Idaho, and then 'Free' Cascadia. MIssoula was in short surrounded, with too much strength blocking their only possible routes of escape. But Bozeman had become a city of comradeship - swelled by refugees from other parts of the state (Many of them expelled by or fleeing from fascists, and thus well disposed to our accepting and tolerant creed) and making alliance with local tribal groups who saw us as their best opportunity for survival and recognition, we were not content to allow people to be strangled and starved by fascist encirclement, not even capitalist ones. The journeys back and forth on horseback by the Rough Riders to maintain lines of communication between Missoula and Bozeman (As well as other, smaller settlements we found common cause with) have already become part of Montana lore, and allowed us to coordinate a plan to overcome the fascist stronghold of Butte. Helena was out of the question - they remained too strong, and we feared too willing to once more use nuclear weapons - but absent any formal treaties between the two, we were able to aim our sights on Butte. Brave men of the 'right' kind infiltrated the city posing as victims of brutal communist purges in Bozeman, a tale the fascists were all too eager to believe, and began carefully cultivating internal support for revolt among the groups who had lost out in the fascist takeover. Bozeman's militia encroached and drew Butte's attention, which in turn allowed Missoula to focus on overrunning several small fascist strongholds in their own backyard and securing themselves. Within months the Missoula forces were also able to array themselves against Butte, pushing them back into the city and turning it into a genuine siege, but neither socialist nor liberal was especially eager to inflict famine and disease. We called for the surrender of the Butte leadership, promising no death penalty would be applied to those who peacefully surrendered (Bozeman had already abolished it, while Missoula had it on the books but had never seen fit to apply it, at least in part out of a desire to avoid outcry from their only allies). To our sorrow, they rejected this offer, but to our joy the people of Butte would rise up within hours and effect an overthrow of these leaders. Aided by our infiltration units and entirely unwilling to die for the sake of a violent group who had illegitimately siezed power and proceeded to repress and oppress the people of Butte, this noble populace showed the best of Montana in defying their masters. The Battle of Butte was short, sharp, and decisive. The remaining fascists surrendered from the surrounded Mike Mansfield Federal Building and United States Courthouse two days later, received by a joint group of Butte natives and Missoula-Bozeman forces who had been invited into the city by the rebels. Though this combat saw dozens dead and wounded, it was a far preferable outcome to the expected hundreds or even thousands of casualties in an invasion. Helena was enraged and scared, and rapidly moved to commence operations against the new Southwest Montana Pact. Butte was bruised, but with assistance from ourselves and Missoula, were able to quickly find their footing under a democratic-socialist government similar to that of Minnesota. And it was from Minnesota, and other comrades to the distant east, that our salvation in the face of Helena's wrath was found. Finally, after weeks of travel, new weapons, ammunition, and artillery pieces from the city of Denver, transported by comrades in Minnesota, began to arrive. The circuitous route imposed by the ongoing violence in Billings had added significant time to the journey, but the first delivery appeared just in time for us to reconstitute and orient our forces with weapons and supplies sufficient to deter Helena. They were confident, and probably with some justification, that they could overrun our horseback and truck-based militias, but with a number of armored cars and guns powerful enough to contest a tank, as well as a very few but very modern group of anti-aircraft guns, they were forced to think again. We bade our dear comrades farewell as they began the journey back east, now loaded up with Montana beef and crops. In truth this quantity falls well short of an equal trade, and we remain eternally grateful for the ongoing generous support of our comrades to the east. The months since have seen Montana divided into a cold war. The SWP declared itself as the Popular Republic of Montana after an election in Missoula returned a socialist government (Though the modern history of this state means there is significantly more tolerance and comity between socialists and the remaining liberals than in many places; those outside Helena have been fair dealers who generally accepted the decline of their political system with equanimity, and in return we have remained committed to a peaceful and openhanded transition to socialism, even if that means we are taking a bit longer to get there than some). We have embarked on a model quite similar to that of Minnesota, ironically turning Butte into the city at the forefront of our political thought. The scope and sparseness of our lands means it is simply not feasible to implement particularly centralized authority, and we are still working to ensure the best balance of independence, freedom, equity, and justice. Currently the PRM encompasses perhaps 300,000 souls, mostly centered in and around our three primary cities. Billings has remained isolated since their internal strife died down, governed by a small council of prickly isolationists who seem to have a new economic system every week. We are hopeful that in time, trade and friendship will open them up and allow us to begin bringing them into our compact. In the heart of the state, however, sits Helena. Still loyal to the 'Government in Exile', and supported by the Canadians in Alberta, Helena is a hardened bunker of a city secured by the sort of soldier who remains loyal and committed after all this time. They have also managed to secure the loyalty of some towns to their north though our analysts believe this has often been enforced at gunpoint rather than out of ideological sympathies. We have been fighting occasional skirmishes with them for some time now, though neither side feels confident in making a move. One of the reasons we are so pleased to be formally welcomed into the Cominterp is for our ability to offer support for, and benefit from, Operation End Of The Line. Operationally we believe we could hold the Helena forces to a stalement for several months unless they get reinforcements from other GiE sectors, but likewise they can hold us just the same and we have been unsuccessful in fomenting internal dissent (Though we have succesfully conducted numerous scouting and intelligence operations). Our military capacities are very small in comparison to those of powers like California, but we have been honed by years of operations in our lands and we are all highly motivated to root out the last remnants of the old government in our state. This would, in turn, permit us to begin a campaign to root out the remaining fascist elements in the state, conduct operations to sweep away remaining bandit groups, and advance towards that dreamed-of day when we may lay down our arms and turn our minds and hands to the work of improving our lives and preserving our heritage. We hope, in time, that Montana will become known again for our landscape and our wildlife, a destination for those who wish to climb mountains, ski, and study the fauna of Yellowstone. It ought to be noted that the use of 'Montana' does not imply that we are laying total claim to the entire state. We deeply respect the history and presence of the Native and Indigenous Peoples of this great land, and whilst we eagerly welcome those who wish to be a part of this polity, we also have the utmost respect for the groups who seek a different course. Our draft constitution states that no tribal authority shall be compelled to submit to the authority of Montana. Indeed, we are eager for the arrival of the DB and BIA in order to help us all work towards a just future. In the spirit of this, we fully support the League's proposals for terms for the Bering Bridge. Ms Adequate fucked around with this message at 09:40 on Jun 16, 2023 |
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Jun 16, 2023 02:29
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Is there a reason to NOT support the bridge? Is the lease going to be wildly expensive?
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Jun 16, 2023 05:35
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The UAWR supports the bridge negotiations.
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Jun 16, 2023 06:34
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I wholeheartedly Reject the bridge proposal.
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Jun 16, 2023 06:59
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1) Voting in favour of the bridge. 2) Cool to see Montana lore and that was super neat. 3) Glad to see we are back!
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Jun 16, 2023 09:06
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1) Is a tunnel not an option? but if the locals are amicable to it, I see no reason not to extend a bridge to them
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Jun 16, 2023 10:05
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Having to deal with permafrost would be a nightmare for tunnel construction. Not to mention the ventilation system.
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Jun 16, 2023 11:31
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Mr. Bates has given me permission to take over the Tarheel Republic from the permabanned creator. I am from the same area and pledge to continue it's socialist history. As such, the Tarheel Republic supports the Bering Strait Treaty.
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Jun 16, 2023 15:06
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The DRMN supports the treaty for leasing of the Diomede Islands. This is a big step toward a truly Global Transit System. And honestly, it's better we get used to these sorts of hurdles if we're gonna keep going with this. Next stop, crossing the Southern ocean and connecting Chile with Antarctica! Also, congratulations on humanity's first official offworld spaceport!
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Jun 16, 2023 15:20
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I figure the next priority is a bridge across the Straits of Gibraltar, or maybe studying the feasibility of linking Australia with southeast Asia by way of Indonesia.
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Jun 16, 2023 15:59
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paragon1 posted:I figure the next priority is a bridge across the Straits of Gibraltar, or maybe studying the feasibility of linking Australia with southeast Asia by way of Indonesia. Fair point, island-hopping through Oceania is probably more feasible in the near-term than, I dunno, an undersea tunnel at the Cape of Good Hope, because no way we're bridging that even with science fiction material science.
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Jun 16, 2023 16:13
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The People's Republic of California enthusiastically supports the Bering Strait Treaty. It's refreshing to see the inhabitants be in a position to advocate for themselves, and their terms are eminently reasonable.
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Jun 16, 2023 20:45
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Veloxyll posted:1) Is a tunnel not an option? but if the locals are amicable to it, I see no reason not to extend a bridge to them The depth is only about 50 metres, so a tunnel is feasible, a bridge would still be easier to construct and has the added bonus of connecting the fist nations tribes to our infrastructure grid. Neddless to say, from a purely economic standpoint, we support the Bering Strait Treaty.
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Jun 16, 2023 22:40
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The NOMAD nation fully supports the Diomede Islands Treaty and its willing to commit volunteers and resources, and plans to expand the proposal for a perennial comission to help improve quality of life for small, isolated polities and non state groups, mainly through improved housing, free education and healthcare
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Jun 18, 2023 00:34
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The Student Union for a Socialist Utopia - SUSU reject the construction of the bridge and urges other representatives to do the same. SUSU questions the need for such a project in the first place. Who is this bridge for? Both the Soviet Far East and American Alaska are among the world's least inhabited places, let us remember that this has been known from the day the first proposal for a feasibility study was drawn up: quote:The most likely terminus on the Siberian side, the Yupik village of Naukan, has been abandoned for nearly 40 years and never had any road link to the rest of Russia even when it was inhabited, while the probable terminus on the Alaskan side, the former Wales Indian Reservation (now a League member), has only a seasonal, single-lane dirt-track road leading away from it. If the aim of the bridge is a symbol of friendship between the Soviet and American peoples then any number of much more productive proposals could be drawn up, because god knows that there is no shortage of need among the American people. If the aim of the bridge is to build new transport links between the American and Eurasian continents then I invite my fellow representatives to look at a map again. There are no major population centres in the area and all this bridge will do is rot from the elements once it is built. No the best case scenario here is that the increased accessibility of the area will advance the interests of extractive industries in the region, a claim that curiously nobody is willing to advance publicly. But let us assume this body's good faith: this entire proposal is this body succumbing to capitalist and revisionist ideas of progress for progress' sake with no clear goal for which needs are being met. The advances granted to us by TNE technology should be channelled into improving peoples' standard of living, not into pouring TNE enhanced concrete in the middle of nowhere for a pointless reproductive organ measuring contest. If Congress decides to go ahead with this waste of funds and materials it should expect SUSU's membership to make full use of their right to speech and organisation to oppose its implementation, up to and including industrial sabotage. If the methods were good enough for our parents they are good enough for us and we will make use of them to oppose boondoggles like this that will be disruptive to the environment and local communities without any clear purpose in return.
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Jun 18, 2023 08:38
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The Popular Republic of Montana would gently remind the representative from SUSU that the concerned local communities seem entirely happy with the proposed bridge and that there is thus no justification for the claim that disruption will be caused. We also wonder if an immediate threat of action escalating as far as industrial sabotage, at this early stage of discussion, before we have had the opportunity to respond to your concerns, might not be counterproductive and even risking countertevolutionary behavior. After all, we propose to be rationally guided, democratic, and open to critique. To make threats before you have given us the opportunity to respond to your case, and to make threats before we have even reached the point of formalizing a proposal to vote on, is the behavior of reactionaries imposing their views, not of comrades seeking consensus. All that said, we also find the observation about actual, pragmatic goals to be a well made one. Will our modern transportation methods suffice to make this a useful project once completed? We can see some value in a large project that demonstrates the material power and technical prowess of socialism, but that alone is not sufficient when other, equally impressive projects could potentially serve many more people. On the other hand, the completion of the bridge might itself prove to be the catalyst for new settlements across Siberia and Alaska, especially as TNE construction and materials would allow for far more comfortable and efficient buildings in those inhospitable lands. We also respect that the prospect of environmental disruption is a credible risk, and would like to see a study performed before the bridge comes to a vote. We in Montana have no shortage of evidence that man can do great harm to the environment.
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Jun 18, 2023 09:29
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The UAWR would like to point out that there is an actual practical reason for this: namely that with emerging transportation technology, if the route from Siberia to California is created, a maglev could make the journey in less than an hour, faster than anything short of a space shuttle.
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Jun 18, 2023 10:31
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The Representative from New Afrika, after reviewing the information and the support of local populations, finds that we support the proposal. However, we also find that cause to accuse this SUS organization of being counter revolutionary and liberal, in choosing to speak for the indigenous peoples of a region against their will and against their wishes, while speaking against greater investment and infrastructure in regions long left underdeveloped by capitalism. Further, SUSU's threats against this body and their willingness to follow through on them make it clear that they cannot be trusted with power. New Afrika makes a motion to eject SUSU from this chamber unless and until that organization backs down and issues an apology for their reactionary threats! Fivemarks fucked around with this message at 13:50 on Jun 19, 2023 |
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Jun 19, 2023 13:47
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Exuse us, have we perhaps walked into a meeting of the United Nations by mistake? We have no interest in being lectured about "proper procedure" from a bunch of people who in a previous life were guerrillas, union bosses and street fighters. If we were not committed to the democratic process we would not be here, we would be walling up the doors to the planning bureau for this waste of resources and worker time in protest. But let us train our cannons not on the interlocutors of this message but against the underlying ideology, since that is what threatens the future of the socialist project here. First of all, let us reject any claims that we are speaking for any indigenous community. We have at no point made this claim and it is in fact ludicrous to propose that this project is being proposed with the happy consent of the First Nations League, an organisation that may I remind my colleagues, despite its political proximity to our own body, is not a member of it and has no voting rights here and whose population does not wish to become a member: quote:A loose federation of a thousand disparate nations, scattered across an incredibly vast area, the League is more of a mutual aid and defense agreement than a functioning state, and it is very possible, almost certain, that it has citizens who are not even aware it exists. The League is very closely aligned with the Comintern both politically and economically, and increasingly culturally, through a generation of young radicals inspired by the global communist movement and interaction with indigenous revolutionaries from North, Central, and South America. That having been said, they have so far refused to actually join the organization; many in the League do not trust it, and fear that joining it would lead to a loss of the sovereignty they only just won back. But this is a rather minor point in the grander scheme of things, since our focus in this body should be first and foremost on what this project expresses regarding the priorities of our leadership. While we may have overcome the artificial scarcity imposed by capitalism, we have yet to overcome the natural scarcity that results from living in a finite universe and as people with a limited lifespan. Much as we have made strides in space mining, the amount of TNE materials that are available to us are still limited and thus any use of these materials presents us with an opportunity cost of what else they could have been used for. While there are still people living in slums, shanty homes and squalor in the world every steel beam manufactured and shipped to this bridge project presents a steel beam not holding up a housing project for those poorest among us. Every cubic meter of concrete poured is not poured to provide a roof to a houseless person on the streets of the war-torn American cities. And even if all those needs were being met already and this was purely "extra" capacity that went into this project: The production of these materials still takes skilled workers hours of labour, so the opportunity cost is the leisure time those workers could have had instead. Perhaps this is a generational difference, as we represent the first generation to grow up outside of the rigid mind cage that was the capitalist mode of production, but we have to observe that this body still slavishly follows productivist lines of thinking developed under capitalism. Just because we can build something does not mean we should. Just because we have the ability to do something does not mean we should do it. There has to be a need that will be met to justify asking these workers to spend their hours toiling away in factories instead of going home and enjoying the leisure time that owning the means of production rightfully should provide them with. So what about those needs? Our opposition says that maglev technology could connect Siberia and California with just an hour's ride on a train. Congratulations! But who needs to be in Siberia and California on the same day outside of a vanishingly small slice of the population of international bureaucrats who suspiciously resemble the members of this august body? What work requires physical presence on two different continents on the same day? Especially with recent advances in computation technology our prediction is instead the opposite, that physical presence will become less necessary than ever before. Okay, the opposition might argue, perhaps work is not the primary driver of use for such a project, perhaps travel and leisure time will be, after all were we not just arguing in favour of just that? Yes, of course we were, but are we really so dominated by the capitalist mindset of productivity and efficiency that we need to strip the travel out of travel? A maglev connecting Siberia to California would utterly annihilate distance between the two places, leading in short order (on a sociological timescale) to a complete destruction of the unique culture of Siberia and California both and the creation of a new melange where the more populous partner would be dominant. Also, are we so desperate to turn the deserts of California or the woods of Siberia into easily consumed tourist destinations that are just an afternoon trip away? We say Nay to that, we say to kill the capitalist in your head that demands that travel should take no time and bury him six feet deep. Travelling the world, seeing different places along the way and making random connections should take time and should be an adventure. The fact that we have the time to do so should be the reward of living under socialism instead of capitalism. By all means, let us make it more comfortable by improving the quality of railroads, ships and ferries, but let us also stop to smell the roses along the way instead of hopping into a pod and appearing in a different city an hour later as if we were in an episode of Star Trek and eliminating all sense of distance and scale from our lives altogether. Let us live our lives with leisure instead of haste and let us not succumb to the brain worms that are productivist thinking. Just as infinite growth could not exist under capitalism so it can not exist under socialism, for we are still bound by the limits of our lifetime and by the limits of the natural world. Let us put the increases in productivity to raising our living standards and reducing the time spent working by rejecting projects that meet no pressing needs, instead of succumbing to the sort of megalomania that has us building bridges across the oceans, all so we can cosplay capitalism with red banners.
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Jun 19, 2023 20:44
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Oh, developing transit links is counter-revolutionary because we're not using those duranium rails to make houses. Of course, we're all so stupid, why didn't we see that before? Let me get on the phone here and dial up the comrades at the SAP offices. They'll be thrilled. While we're at it, lets bring everyone back down from the Moon and scrap all our spaceships. All that effort and funding could be going to build houses after all. A socialist body that isn't devoting the entirety of its effort to solving one single problem and only that problem can hardly be worthy of the name after all. We'd better strip funding from the universities too, draft all the students into work gangs. Nothing they're studying could possibly be worthwhile. It's not like we need any of it. Thank you, comrade, from liberating us from the foolishness of doing things. We surely never would've realized the peril we were in of actually accomplishing something without you. I also look forward to your membership finding out what happens when you stand between the rail unions and their passions.
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Jun 20, 2023 01:14
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Your cretinous obsession with aesthetics aside, the need served by the bridge is to provide a heretofore unprecedented capability to link the rail networks of 5 continents and a heightened level of travel between the two of both cargo and people. You know, like every other bridge ever built. It will also provide increased availability of goods and services to the people along the length of the rails traveling to and from the bridge, all historically underserved areas. Including your much vaunted housing material. It will provide enhanced security guarantees for our comrades in North America in the event impending operations are prolonged or delayed. And dozens of more needs and uses, big and small, all of which I'm sure you'll cavalierly dismiss as wasteful or a retrograde capitalist impulse. I frankly don't care. Your arguments are nonsensical and your inflammatory rhetoric impresses no one.
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Jun 20, 2023 01:28
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Why are you wasting useful manpower sending diplomats to argue policy and threaten sabotage when they would be better put to use tilling a field or assembling pre-fab housing?
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Jun 20, 2023 01:41
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NewMars posted:The UAWR would like to point out that there is an actual practical reason for this: namely that with emerging transportation technology, if the route from Siberia to California is created, a maglev could make the journey in less than an hour, faster than anything short of a space shuttle. To humor the SUSU representative, I will concede that as of now there's little reason why any individual should require that degree of alacrity of transport in this day. That said the ignorance of the SUSU is on full display here. It appears they have little to go on save for what readily accessible information can be pulled from pre-war encyclopedias, because it is not as if these areas are well connected to our burgeoning computer networks yet. They speak of ferries being good enough but forget that there's a dearth of deep water ports that are capable of receiving the goods of industry, so even if they wanted to develop they would struggle to do with what little resources they themselves have access to. Oh and that's not even mentioning that in some parts of the region the sea is iced over for upwards for half the year if they're lucky. Some of us in the world may enjoy a partial reprieve from scarcity but for the peoples of the far north it is still very much a reality. Capitalism never saw fit to develop the region because it would be such an expensive venture even they could never find a way to squeeze a profit out of it. These people deserve the power to make choices for their own future and they will never be able to do that if they are still at the mercy of nature's scarcity. They do not have the means to connect themselves to the rest of the world in a way that would give them that agency, so it falls to the COMINTERP to step up and provide those resources--IF AND ONLY IF the local communities are willing to accept them. It sounds like they do, so who are you to stand in their way?
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Jun 20, 2023 01:43
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The Commune of France had been prepared to simply wait until the full session of the People's Congress to lodge an opinion, but the...shall we say...heated rhetoric being deployed here has necessitated a statement. Firstly - The Commune of France, following a general vote of the French Congress, endorses the Bering Strait Treaty, out of respect for the indigenous peoples of the area and their right to self-determine their locality's policy arrangements with the COMINTERP. Secondly - The Commune of France, following the recommendation of the Committee for International Inter-Left Affairs, wholeheartedly denounces the idea that national dialogues between leftist organizations on an international platform such as the COMINTERP should denigrate into threat-making and open declarations of intent to sabotage other members of leftist nations and movements over minor differences in opinion. The Student Union for a Socialist Utopia should, therefore, retract their threat of industrial sabotage. Thirdly - The Commune of France, following the recommendation of the Committee for International Inter-Left Affairs, encourages the Student Union for a Socialist Utopia to engage in the principle of investigation - to go amongst the people they seek to ardently advocate for, and aid in their self-organization to best present a cogent case to the COMINTERP regarding any necessary adjustments to the Treaty, or for necessary resource allocations by the COMINTERP elsewhere.
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Jun 20, 2023 02:14
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paragon1 posted:Oh, developing transit links is counter-revolutionary because we're not using those duranium rails to make houses. Of course, we're all so stupid, why didn't we see that before? Let me get on the phone here and dial up the comrades at the SAP offices. They'll be thrilled. While we're at it, lets bring everyone back down from the Moon and scrap all our spaceships. All that effort and funding could be going to build houses after all. A socialist body that isn't devoting the entirety of its effort to solving one single problem and only that problem can hardly be worthy of the name after all. We'd better strip funding from the universities too, draft all the students into work gangs. Nothing they're studying could possibly be worthwhile. It's not like we need any of it. Thank you, comrade, from liberating us from the foolishness of doing things. We surely never would've realized the peril we were in of actually accomplishing something without you. Rubix Squid posted:To humor the SUSU representative, I will concede that as of now there's little reason why any individual should require that degree of alacrity of transport in this day. quote:Plans for infrastructure leading to and from the bridge, on both ends, will also be necessary, as currently there are not actually any significant road or rail routes to be found within over 400 miles of either end of the proposed bridge. The most likely terminus on the Siberian side, the Yupik village of Naukan, has been abandoned for nearly 40 years and never had any road link to the rest of Russia even when it was inhabited, while the probable terminus on the Alaskan side, the former Wales Indian Reservation (now a League member), has only a seasonal, single-lane dirt-track road leading away from it. If there is a genuine need for improvede infrastructure in the area, and there most likely is, then the answer to that would be modes of transport that do not rely on extensive fixed infrastructure in order to function, since those leave a massive footprint both in the environment as well as in the required maintenance work. The answer would most likely be helicopters, VTOLs, boats or maybe suborbital shuttles, depending on the needs of any given community, not thousands of miles of railroad track through some of the most hostile terrain known to mankind. And even this would be a massive change to the way of life of these communities that should be initiated upon their request, not because we feel like showing off.
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Jun 20, 2023 02:48
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