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Toshimo posted:2. Lorcana hasn't yet printed mechanically unique promos, to my knowledge (all the D23 promos are just alt-arts of the base set), and Ravensberger really should know better than to do that, as it's a death sentence for any real competitive play (and yes, I know 99% of the sales for this are casuals, but it really takes any sort of word-of-mouth off the table, except clickbait).
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Jun 19, 2023 01:16
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No.
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Jun 19, 2023 01:55
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Poor shadowrun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_szmwfkvqRk
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Jun 20, 2023 09:12
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Toshimo posted:No.
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Jun 20, 2023 09:37
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:Poor shadowrun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_szmwfkvqRk Is shadow run the one where there's a class who gets to hop on the internet and play a completely different and unrelated game
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Jun 20, 2023 13:58
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:Poor shadowrun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_szmwfkvqRk The most realistic part is how it is just the DM and the hacker arguing about the rules while everyone else do nothing.
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Jun 20, 2023 14:21
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Ominous Jazz posted:Is shadow run the one where there's a class who gets to hop on the internet and play a completely different and unrelated game That's the one. It's also (usually) a much worse game than the rest of it, at that!
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Jun 20, 2023 14:41
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Capfalcon posted:That's the one. It's also (usually) a much worse game than the rest of it, at that! Looks like it's safe to grab some chips the hacker has to talk to the internet that has the face of his father for some reason for twenty minutes or sk
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Jun 20, 2023 14:47
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The best Shadowrun game I ever played was when we were all deckers. But SR isn't the only culprit, pretty much every cyberpunk game in the 80's/90's had a seperate game for hacking.
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Jun 20, 2023 14:48
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Bucnasti posted:The best Shadowrun game I ever played was when we were all deckers. Honestly it's only with RED that actually just went and integrated decking alongside physical stuff that Cyberpunk finally ditched the notion.
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Jun 20, 2023 14:52
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Cyberpunk was my jam back in the day and I made it a point to buy and read every new game in the genre up until the 2000s, with the exception of Spacetime(as far as I'm aware the first CP TTRPG), I can't think of any games that didn't have a bespoke hacking system, and strangely I think I would have been disappointed if I one didn't have it.
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Jun 20, 2023 14:59
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:Poor shadowrun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_szmwfkvqRk lol @ everything SimonChris posted:The most realistic part is how it is just the DM and the hacker arguing about the rules while everyone else do nothing. qft The most unrealistic thing in the vid is that you cannot mathematically fail even the most basic of actions despite having a skill level described as being equal to that of a trained surgeon or doctor. The dice pools are so drat swingy.
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Jun 20, 2023 15:06
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Ominous Jazz posted:Is shadow run the one where there's a class who gets to hop on the internet and play a completely different and unrelated game It's so iconic to the game that in RPG design spaces it's called the Decker Problem because Shadowrun calls their hackers "deckers".
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Jun 20, 2023 15:16
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Have any cyberpunk RPGs tried to involve the other players in the hacking process? Like, maybe the hacker can take the rest of the group with him into VR, and they fight off the security programs while he secures the data thingy?
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Jun 20, 2023 15:19
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Even in the actual Neuromancer Case usually is in the matrix while Molly is doing real world combat and they inform each others' actions.
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Jun 20, 2023 15:31
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SimonChris posted:Have any cyberpunk RPGs tried to involve the other players in the hacking process? Like, maybe the hacker can take the rest of the group with him into VR, and they fight off the security programs while he secures the data thingy? There were some handwaving at this in Shadowrun with "Foundations" which were basically throwing out the old matrix rules on a sometimes basis and treating the matrix like "the real world" where they used their normal skills for things. It was a mess, as it was unclear why the decker/technomancer would suddenly make doing their job harder for themselves, or why the GM wouldn't just make a comparable scenario in the real world, since it just used real world skills, anyway. SR has always needed a matrix rework to fix how deckers contribute to the team, how VR splits the group, and how exclusive matrix actions are to people who spent a ton of resources for them in character creation.
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Jun 20, 2023 15:59
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Shadowrun 4 made the Matrix wireless which led to hacking guns on the fly and poo poo.
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Jun 20, 2023 16:06
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MonsieurChoc posted:Shadowrun 4 made the Matrix wireless which led to hacking guns on the fly and poo poo. It also, at least theoretically, lead to the opposition doing the same. It was an rear end in a top hat GM who would throw an enemy hacker at the PCs, since there was little they could do about it. Which lead to another debate of "why does my gun/cyberarm need to be wireless, when it worked just fine without it before"? "Because" Even then, the action economy was often so bad that the decker would contribute more just by picking up a gun and shooting at them.
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Jun 20, 2023 16:19
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My hot take is, in a cyberpunk-ish adventure game, the hacker is about as worthwhile an archetype as having 'merchant' be an archetype in the party in a dungeon delving fantasy game. They both kinda have very little to do with the day to day stuff of what happens and i think the games work better with players as different flavors of gun havers.
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Jun 20, 2023 16:46
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ninjoatse.cx posted:It also, at least theoretically, lead to the opposition doing the same. It was an rear end in a top hat GM who would throw an enemy hacker at the PCs, since there was little they could do about it. Which lead to another debate of "why does my gun/cyberarm need to be wireless, when it worked just fine without it before"? "Because" It was real dumb though. It was trivial to turn off the wireless links on any of your gear so it was no longer hackable, which meant either your opposition had to be brain dead, or your decker didn't get to do any combat hacking. I ended up houseruling that decks could put out a short-ranged chain of nanobots that could infiltrate enemy gear and effectively make a "signal chain" back to the hacker, even if the enemy gear had wireless turned off. I like my hackers to be machine wizards. Panzeh posted:My hot take is, in a cyberpunk-ish adventure game, the hacker is about as worthwhile an archetype as having 'merchant' be an archetype in the party in a dungeon delving fantasy game. They both kinda have very little to do with the day to day stuff of what happens and i think the games work better with players as different flavors of gun havers. Eh, in a game with non-poo poo rules for hacking, having a dude along who can loop all the enemy camera feeds, open any electronic lock, shut down the cyberware of opposing fighters, turn enemy robots over to their side, blow up steam vents, turn all the lights off or make them blindingly bright, take over opposing vehicles, and steal data from computers and wreck said computers causing huge amounts of property damage could be worthwhile. Gort fucked around with this message at 17:05 on Jun 20, 2023 |
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Jun 20, 2023 17:01
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That's the thing, the normal fixes stop the hacker being a "hacker", they just become a technomancer. Even in fiction they're normally playing a different game. The hacker is often just a payload to be delivered.
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Jun 20, 2023 17:12
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Hackers in an adventure game are literally R2D2. You plug into the base's computer and stand off to the side trying not to get noticed while the heroes rescue the princess, and if you do get discovered, most of your poo poo involves running away and advanced running away with a smattering of breaking out of traps so you can run away. This is cool in a movie where you're a supporting character and it's OK if you're not on screen for twenty minutes but it's not cool in an RPG. The basic problem with hackers in RPGs is that hacking involves standing still at a terminal doing boring nerd poo poo while action people do action stuff and the action stuff is way more exciting and that's why... ...you should structure games like this as one of those games where you have a main character and each player also has at least one supporting minion as well, a minor character who can do helpful stuff but can also be out of scene for exteneded lengths of time, and occasionally can be the focus when the main character is tied up. Someone has a hacker as their sidekick. Or hell, the whole team can have hacker sidekicks, have a whole LAN party going on back at base with your secondary people while your primaries are out in the world being fun.
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Jun 20, 2023 17:19
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I literally just watched Hackers(1995) the other day and was trying to think of how you would emulate that type of action in a RPG. I really just want a move that goes "When you hack the gibson..."
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Jun 20, 2023 17:25
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Probably the best way to handle "action hacking" would be to have a sci-fi world so IoT'd that there's always something for them to do. Fighting in a corridor? You can make a vending machine go berserk, trigger the sprinklers, turn off the lights or cause a cleaning drone to come zooming out and bump into enemies. In a car chase? You can deploy bollards out of the road, make another car's auto-steering go haywire, confuse the enemy GPS, turn on their auto-driving, etc. Just treat it like Science Magic of some sort, and have a bunch of effects they can call on X times per scene, or using Hacking Mana(running out of either means that the exploit they were using has been patched, or they've been blocked, so they need to set up a new VPN or find more glitches, etc.), as long as they can explain how it happens and it's funny.
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Jun 20, 2023 17:44
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Leperflesh posted:...you should structure games like this as one of those games where you have a main character and each player also has at least one supporting minion as well, a minor character who can do helpful stuff but can also be out of scene for exteneded lengths of time, and occasionally can be the focus when the main character is tied up. Someone has a hacker as their sidekick. Or hell, the whole team can have hacker sidekicks, have a whole LAN party going on back at base with your secondary people while your primaries are out in the world being fun. I know Dungeons & Dragons used to make a big deal out of having minions. The minions in Fellowship are great, too. Maybe more TTRPGs should have minions!
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Jun 20, 2023 17:45
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Leperflesh posted:Hackers in an adventure game are literally R2D2. You plug into the base's computer and stand off to the side trying not to get noticed while the heroes rescue the princess, and if you do get discovered, most of your poo poo involves running away and advanced running away with a smattering of breaking out of traps so you can run away. You could also make the team much more involved in tech, with their own abilities to join in. So instead of having two character sets doing things in tandem, they solve the hacking game first (or later, or in the middle, whatever), and then they can call on the benefits of their hacking in the middle of their other activities. Dramatically opening a door while the team is under fire s the example always given, but it always kinda falls flat in play. And if the decker doesn't show up to the game, I guess the door doesn't exist or just opens on its own. Shadowrun had a cool setting of virtual worlds that control the reality, but in play this meant making up an on demand setting that only 1 or maybe two characters could see or interact with.
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Jun 20, 2023 17:49
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edit wrong thread
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Jun 20, 2023 17:56
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SimonChris posted:Have any cyberpunk RPGs tried to involve the other players in the hacking process? Like, maybe the hacker can take the rest of the group with him into VR, and they fight off the security programs while he secures the data thingy? Leperflesh posted:...you should structure games like this as one of those games where you have a main character and each player also has at least one supporting minion as well, a minor character who can do helpful stuff but can also be out of scene for exteneded lengths of time, and occasionally can be the focus when the main character is tied up. Someone has a hacker as their sidekick. Or hell, the whole team can have hacker sidekicks, have a whole LAN party going on back at base with your secondary people while your primaries are out in the world being fun.
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Jun 20, 2023 18:40
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Splicer posted:I thought of what I think is a neat idea while back where the other players have mini-characters for the hacking that in-fiction are the hacker's semi-autonomous helper algorithms. Alot of games where the characters use VR have a persona/avatar that gets its own game stats.
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Jun 20, 2023 18:43
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ninjoatse.cx posted:Alot of games where the characters use VR have a persona/avatar that gets its own game stats.
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Jun 20, 2023 18:51
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PurpleXVI posted:Probably the best way to handle "action hacking" would be to have a sci-fi world so IoT'd that there's always something for them to do. Fighting in a corridor? You can make a vending machine go berserk, trigger the sprinklers, turn off the lights or cause a cleaning drone to come zooming out and bump into enemies. In a car chase? You can deploy bollards out of the road, make another car's auto-steering go haywire, confuse the enemy GPS, turn on their auto-driving, etc. It's called Infinity. I think I've shared a story before where I was in a 5 player campaign, where we were under fire from some guards. And while three of the players were shooting a lot, and jumping around with their cyber legs and turning into a werewolf, the hacker was hacking the guards to get their secure comm info, which they then used to create a secure connection to their headquarters, and then I used my social hacking skills to pretend to be an executive of the location we were infiltrating and convinced the security guard company that we were immediately terminating the contract. The guards then bailed and walked away when they got the texts that they were fired. Infinity is a clunkier earlier implementation of the 2d20 system, but it does the whole "every character type should have something awesome to do in every scene" thing really, really well.
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Jun 20, 2023 18:59
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ninjoatse.cx posted:Which lead to another debate of "why does my gun/cyberarm need to be wireless, when it worked just fine without it before"? "Because" This seems realistic at least. Someone at Ares or Shiawase got a promotion because it let them roll out a whole new line, and they planned-obsolescence the old one by no longer selling parts for it. Later they will charge you megacred for a Faraday sleeve to effectively disable this innovation.
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Jun 20, 2023 18:59
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CitizenKeen posted:It's called Infinity. Right. And if you take it far enough, for cases where the players are in non-techy surroundings, the hacker could maybe jailbreak party members' guns, cybernetics, power armor, whatever to give them buffs. There are a lot of options if you're willing to dispense with "realistic" hacking.
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Jun 20, 2023 19:15
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I feel like the big problem is that, like D&D's awful psionics, you have players operating on 2 separate timescales and it just doesn't work. You'd really need to have some kind of "action" hacking rules that you use when other people also need to act, and then a crunchier set of rules for solo sessions (if desired). So if you have an all-hacker session you're dungeon crawling in the crystal spires with all the ICE and nodes and crap, but when you're on-site it's a more abstract "fill up the 'complete my objective' clock, while also managing the 'alert level' clock" system. Basically trying to arrange things so that the hacker gets roughly the same number of actions per round as the people in combat to keep things moving along.
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Jun 20, 2023 19:28
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CitizenKeen posted:Infinity is a clunkier earlier implementation of the 2d20 system, but it does the whole "every character type should have something awesome to do in every scene" thing really, really well. What would you say is the less clunky modern implementation of it for action-y games? I've had an Infinity hack on the backburner for a while now, curious if there's more elegant versions of the system that also manage to have a lot of fun crunch.
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Jun 20, 2023 20:55
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I'm looking for some more FATAL & Friends fodder, does anyone have any interesting RPG's they'd like to see reviewed that haven't already been tackled by the thread? (saying you love my style of posting and want me, specifically, to review an already-reviewed game also works, I am always vulnerable to praise) It's either that or I have to tackle yet another Planescape module where they expand the canon with yet another superpowered cosmological concept just because they can't be hosed to be creative with the fifteen or so they already have.
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Jun 20, 2023 21:00
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I feel safe recommending Frontier Scum because it's a) short and b) really fun to look at.
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Jun 20, 2023 21:10
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MonsieurChoc posted:Shadowrun 4 made the Matrix wireless which led to hacking guns on the fly and poo poo. In theory. Man, the rules in original 4th were so bare bones as far as hacking. 4A (Anniversary edition) was a bit better, but that system was still underbaked. So much was put onto the GM's imagination in the core book, in ways that guns, skills cyberware and magic weren't. The sourcebooks probably helped, but that was around the time me and Shadowrun parted ways.
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Jun 20, 2023 21:12
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PurpleXVI posted:I'm looking for some more FATAL & Friends fodder, does anyone have any interesting RPG's they'd like to see reviewed that haven't already been tackled by the thread? Have you looked at either Fading Suns 4th Edition or The Witcher? I've been trying to work up the courage and emotional energy to do a F&F of one of the two, but I haven't managed to so far.
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Jun 20, 2023 21:15
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I didn't know they did a 4th edition of Fading Suns. Is it meaningfully different? Because 2nd and 3rd edition were just repackagings of 2nd, occasionally folding some expansion content into the corebook, and doing minor rephrasings, with no meaningful changes.
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Jun 20, 2023 21:25
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