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breadshaped posted:prescience as analogue for information/media saturation Huh? Can you explain that?
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Jul 23, 2023 20:30
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You know, when your social feeds are cluttered with nonsense and it makes you want to start a civilization spanning jihad.
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Jul 23, 2023 20:38
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I'm game for a Butlerian Jihad Also an antifascist jihad
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Jul 23, 2023 20:41
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Jewmanji posted:Huh? Can you explain that? first thing that came to mind:
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Jul 23, 2023 23:29
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Paul feels incredibly overwhelmed and struggles with choice paralysis a few times from his prescience. Just desperate to find a path forward that he can consider "good." I'd call that an apt analogy for information/media saturation, even if not necessarily intended. He even spends long times just parsing his visions in between strikes against the Harkonnens, effectively doomscrolling his prescience.
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Jul 24, 2023 02:38
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YaketySass posted:first thing that came to mind: This would be a mentat ability, not prescience. disposablewords posted:Paul feels incredibly overwhelmed and struggles with choice paralysis a few times from his prescience. Just desperate to find a path forward that he can consider "good." I'd call that an apt analogy for information/media saturation, even if not necessarily intended. He even spends long times just parsing his visions in between strikes against the Harkonnens, effectively doomscrolling his prescience. Yeah you lost me. Not sure how passively ingesting a Twitter stream is a useful analogy for willing the galaxy into a holocaust.
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Jul 24, 2023 02:45
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Jewmanji posted:This would be a mentat ability, not prescience. Back in the book, Paul's incomplete mentat training is what lets him do that so effectively with his prescience. Column A, column B. quote:Yeah you lost me. Not sure how passively ingesting a Twitter stream is a useful analogy for willing the galaxy into a holocaust. Paul ends up spending a lot of time during a time skip just delving constantly into his prescience to try to avert that holocaust while staying alive. He doesn't so much will it into being as fail to will it out of being. Hence likening it to someone immersing themselves in the poo poo stream of the internet out of a morbid inability to look away from a variety of problems on the horizon. It's not a perfect analogy, but it's where my brain went with it.
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Jul 24, 2023 03:05
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breadshaped posted:climate change, prescience as analogue for information/media saturation, increasing right-populist autocrats and AI; it can't be understated how drat on point Frank Herbert was about all this poo poo. When you’re right you’re right. It would very hard to understate his insights, as it were
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Jul 24, 2023 03:21
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Jewmanji posted:
Have you looked at Twitter recently. Or ever.
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Jul 24, 2023 03:21
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prescience's a metaphor for dialectical materialism
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Jul 24, 2023 09:04
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breadshaped posted:climate change, prescience as analogue for information/media saturation, increasing right-populist autocrats and AI; it can't be understated how drat on point Frank Herbert was about all this poo poo. Complete with the heavy implication the Jihad wasn't actually against even sentient AI (shut up failson ripping off Terminator) but against automation and 'machine thinking' being used exclusively to benefit the wealthy and powerful and treat humans as resources. It ultimately failed, of course, with all the themes of humans being instead used and bred for specific purposes with their own free will considered a flaw to be corrected. Because the machines were never the problem. A lot of it really comes down to how materialist Dune ultimately is; the themes around religion are more exploring how people use myth and narrative to understand the world around them and things they can't understand or control- but when you DO understand and can control material things, those myths become terrifying weapons. Hard to say how much Frank might have believed the gender-related weirdness that affects how prescience and ancestral memory work, it's definitely treated as a bit of 'men and women are good at different things' and also presents the dynamic of women wielding secret power in an overtly patriarchal feudal society with some sci-fantasy twists. Does make me wonder if he could have been persuaded to change his attitude on gender and sexuality a bit and how different the books might have been.
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Jul 24, 2023 09:43
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It would have been strange at the time NOT to have strong beliefs about the intrinsic differences between the genders. I think that's one of the hardest things to understand retroactively now that even the 60s are starting to fade from living memory
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Jul 24, 2023 11:39
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Even so the Gender essentialism of the setting is bent in the very concept of the Kwisatz Haderach being a man who can access both "male" prescience and "female" ancestral memory. Given that Leto II freely admits that he only became God-Emperor instead of his sister by pure chance it would seem a female Kwisatz Haderach is equally possible and the Bene Gesserit simply never pursued creating one.
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Jul 24, 2023 12:14
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Failed Imagineer posted:It would have been strange at the time NOT to have strong beliefs about the intrinsic differences between the genders. I think that's one of the hardest things to understand retroactively now that even the 60s are starting to fade from living memory Huge fan of Wheel of Time but that is def something you have to wrangle with there
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Jul 24, 2023 12:49
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AnEdgelord posted:Even so the Gender essentialism of the setting is bent in the very concept of the Kwisatz Haderach being a man who can access both "male" prescience and "female" ancestral memory. Given that Leto II freely admits that he only became God-Emperor instead of his sister by pure chance it would seem a female Kwisatz Haderach is equally possible and the Bene Gesserit simply never pursued creating one. Yeah, it could've been a simple pragmatic choice by the Bene Gesserit. The political establishment in Dune seems largely dominated by men (haven't read the later books, is there any house explicitly led by a woman?), so a male Kwisatz Haderach probably would've found easier acceptance there.
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Jul 24, 2023 12:56
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Perestroika posted:Yeah, it could've been a simple pragmatic choice by the Bene Gesserit. The political establishment in Dune seems largely dominated by men (haven't read the later books, is there any house explicitly led by a woman?), so a male Kwisatz Haderach probably would've found easier acceptance there. Nope, at least in pre-God-Emperor times. It's explicitly feudal, women only openly hold power in specific situations where no of age male is available, or the Bene Gesserit who are treated as something like an order or nuns or Vestal Virgins, otherwise they serve as concubines or political bargaining chips. Leto II more or less says one of the reasons he made his enforcers all-female is to smash the patriarchy and normalise the idea of women being leaders and soldiers, and I think it's implied in his time the Bene Gesserit more openly hold power even if the lack of Spice has greatly reduced their abilities. One of the reasons why gender-swapping Kynes works, I think, as someone who isn't expected to hold any real power besides being a local functionary.
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Jul 24, 2023 13:26
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Jewmanji posted:This would be a mentat ability, not prescience. Paul's ability to see time "streams" comes from the combination of his genetics, mentat training and bene gesserit training. quote:Yeah you lost me. Not sure how passively ingesting a Twitter stream is a useful analogy for willing the galaxy into a holocaust. You should spend more time seriously though, Paul's small and futile attempts to divert things ("call me Paul Muad'dib") and eventual descent into apathetic resignment is pretty much a terminally online person becoming utterly irony poisoned against the onslaught of information about our own coming calamity of climate collapse, increasing authoritarianism and regression into chauvinistic disregard for women's autonomy/lgbt rights.
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Jul 24, 2023 14:42
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Yeah I dunno, it doesn't seem like a particularly salient metaphor to me considering the timeline is basically a) what did Trump do today b) how many people were killed in a Walmart today and c) what temperature record did we break today, which is a passive and apathetic way of ingesting the world around you (guilty as charged). Paul is in the driver's seat. He's making these things happen, even if he feels like he's only selecting for the least bad option. He's not merely watching things unfold before him like a future newsreel, he is himself influencing the events.
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Jul 24, 2023 15:41
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Yeah but the first 3 books at least seem to be all about the irony that Paul doesn't really have any choice whatsoever. He's an all powerful omniscient being completely constrained in how he can influence events. It's not a perfect allegory but it's an interesting one
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Jul 24, 2023 15:52
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Jewmanji posted:Yeah I dunno, it doesn't seem like a particularly salient metaphor to me considering the timeline is basically a) what did Trump do today b) how many people were killed in a Walmart today and c) what temperature record did we break today, which is a passive and apathetic way of ingesting the world around you (guilty as charged). Paul is in the driver's seat. He's making these things happen, even if he feels like he's only selecting for the least bad option. He's not merely watching things unfold before him like a future newsreel, he is himself influencing the events. The fremen jihad is portrayed as something that exploded outward as an unstoppable onslaught of vengence for centuries (millenia?) of generational trauma and suffering inflicted against their people. Paul's role in meaningfully directing it other than being its symbolic figurehead is extremely debatable imo. That mantle probably more aptly belongs to Leto II, who confirms to the Preacher how meaningless Paul's attempt to direct the future was beyond securing the position of the Atreides.
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Jul 24, 2023 17:06
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I also couldn't help but think of Leto II as God-Emperor Dril at times.
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Jul 24, 2023 18:26
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There's zero chance of LLMs ever being able to write acceptable narrative, for a whole host of reasons both technical and labor oriented. However there's a very good chance that within 10 years "AI tools" (aka neural learned math matrixes) will be doing a lot of SFX work.
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Jul 24, 2023 20:04
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:There's zero chance of LLMs ever being able to write acceptable narrative, for a whole host of reasons both technical and labor oriented. i agree, Lin Lanuel Miranda will never write an acceptable narrative
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Jul 24, 2023 21:03
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:i agree, Lin Lanuel Miranda will never write an acceptable narrative Nice one.
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Jul 24, 2023 21:11
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net cafe scandal posted:Nice one. this but unironically
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Jul 24, 2023 21:44
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:There's zero chance of LLMs ever being able to write acceptable narrative, for a whole host of reasons both technical and labor oriented. Narrative really isn't that complicated but who knows what the future holds so let's just agree to disagree on the first point, for the second it's gonna take way less than ten years.
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Jul 24, 2023 22:10
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sebmojo posted:Narrative really isn't that complicated but who knows what the future holds so let's just agree to disagree on the first point, for the second it's gonna take way less than ten years. "Write me a screenplay about two opposite people on a quest, based on the principles of Blake Snyder's Save the Cat" *ChatGTP shits out this summer's greatest box office hit* Edit - I'm agreeing with you, to be clear, specifically about cookie-cutter screenplays Eason the Fifth fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Jul 24, 2023 |
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Jul 24, 2023 23:19
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Eason the Fifth posted:"Write me a screenplay about two opposite people on a quest, based on the principles of Blake Snyder's Save the Cat" thank you for not loving posting the actual ai barf in the making of this post
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Jul 24, 2023 23:48
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God I can’t wait for the dream team of Christopher walken and Florence Pugh in this movie
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Jul 25, 2023 08:31
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If anyone is hoping for updates on the potential delay, the word is Legendary is waiting until the beginning of September to make a decision. That's when the next big marketing push would begin, assuming the original date holds, so the reasoning is there's no reason to make a choice before then.
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Jul 26, 2023 15:31
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Complete with the heavy implication the Jihad wasn't actually against even sentient AI (shut up failson ripping off Terminator) but against automation and 'machine thinking' being used exclusively to benefit the wealthy and powerful and treat humans as resources. This is your annual post from PW reminding the thread that the Butlerian Jihad is explicitly a "crusade against computers, thinking machines, and conscious robots." Also, I'm pretty sure the phrase "machine thinking" doesn't actually appear in the text. At least I wasn't able to find it when control-F'ing through the PDFs I have.
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Jul 27, 2023 18:08
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I think you're both right but only partially, it was indeed against some form of AI but the "Machine Thinking" was definitely part of it and Leto II definitely uses that phrase in God-Emperor when discussing it. Weirdly God-Emperor is the best source for what Frank Herbert himself wanted to say with the Butlerian Jihad.
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Jul 28, 2023 01:03
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Towards the end of GeOD, when Sionna is in the desert with Leto II, there's a whole scene of her seeing the potential future that was avoided by The Golden Path - and I could never quite make head or tails of what that implies. I think it explicitly mentions Ixian prescience hunter killers, but that's not at all brought up in Chapterhouse Dune, whereas Ixians did finally manage to develop something that could replace navigators. Meanwhile, the fix for this is simply that humanity will scatter but also somehow the prescience-avoiding gene of Sionna will be shared among all of humanity? I know Frank Herbert didn't have a great grasp on gender and sexuality, but he had at least two children with his wife - so surely it couldn't have been that dire? BlankSystemDaemon fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Jul 28, 2023 |
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Jul 28, 2023 01:17
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:Towards the end of GeOD, when Sionna is in the desert with Leto II, there's a whole scene of her seeing the potential future that was avoided by The Golden Path - and I could never quite make head or tails of what that implies. That capitalization choice is pure chaos and I love it.
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Jul 28, 2023 02:17
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Science Fiction simply has
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Jul 28, 2023 02:47
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I always thought that Leto avoided a number of bad endings, one of which was humanity wiped out by prescient machines.
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Jul 28, 2023 03:22
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Sadly he didn't avert the worst ending of all, aka the series never ending
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Jul 28, 2023 03:40
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Jul 28, 2023 06:28
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I feel the comedy option is all along Frank was doing a JJ Abrams and had no goddamn idea. Though I feel the theme was less about any particular threat besides the risk of stagnation and isolation- humanity putting all its eggs in one basket and retreating into authoritarian stratocracy, where any problem that came along- rampaging robots, out of control bioweapons, invading aliens, or even just plague, nuclear war or environmental disaster, would be enough to tip things over and leave humanity to dwindle and fade. For the bad end here look at Krypton, especially in Man of Steel. Ghost Leviathan fucked around with this message at 07:14 on Jul 28, 2023 |
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Jul 28, 2023 07:11
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Xiahou Dun posted:That capitalization choice is pure chaos and I love it.
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Jul 28, 2023 09:20
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