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Suspiciously good reception.
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Nov 22, 2023 06:08
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Platystemon posted:Boeing already uses GPS receivers in the tail and nose (maybe also the wing tips) to derive some parameters. What if they turn the radio down tho? *taps head*
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Nov 22, 2023 06:10
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A real pilot would fly a magnetic compass heading and correct for winds aloft using a trusty e6b. Good luck spoofing that! 
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Nov 22, 2023 07:29
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Why don't pilots just look out the window to tell where they are? Are they stupid?
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Nov 22, 2023 09:46
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Pilots aren't stupid, they're drunk and/or hungover
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Nov 22, 2023 09:49
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mobby_6kl posted:Why don't pilots just look out the window to tell where they are? Are they stupid? Cue the story of the Russian bomber that didn't set the direction correctly on the navigation and flew the inverse of the actual mission plan, the landmarks all lined up with what they should have been seeing, and they almost started a war with Iran.
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Nov 22, 2023 09:57
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Phanatic posted:The loving ridiculous part is that the Mentor satellites already know exactly the origin and method of every single one of these spoofers and yet that information is still concealed because it would reveal national technical means. I’m pretty sure that if you’re spoofing civil air nav systems it doesn’t matter what country you’re in, you need to eat a tactom.
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Nov 22, 2023 10:25
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Nov 22, 2023 12:00
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Cojawfee posted:Cue the story of the Russian bomber that didn't set the direction correctly on the navigation and flew the inverse of the actual mission plan, the landmarks all lined up with what they should have been seeing, and they almost started a war with Iran. https://youtu.be/i-bdJF6TUFs?si=hjGfgD_GlmWCM0-Q
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Nov 22, 2023 15:19
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david_a posted:In case anybody is curious This is worth the watch. The series of unfortunate coincidences could have been included in the command and control book about all the "near misses" of nuclear war and catastrophes and it would fit right in.
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Nov 22, 2023 18:17
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Cojawfee posted:Cue the story of the Russian bomber that didn't set the direction correctly on the navigation and flew the inverse of the actual mission plan, the landmarks all lined up with what they should have been seeing, and they almost started a war with Iran. The pilots only realised when the sun started rising in front of them. They thought they had been travelling west.
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Nov 22, 2023 20:18
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The Blues' Dirty Loop, from the NFO seat on #7: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGvb7qN1ux4 Also, for those who  at DCS F-14 footage but don't want to learn or over-invest into flight sim gear to enjoy flying it, Heatblur has a present for FS2020 users: https://youtu.be/I_b2abhiBww?si=BMl3FjOYxXxgaXlX
BIG HEADLINE fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Nov 23, 2023 |
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Nov 23, 2023 00:14
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The Iranian shahed cruise drones use an array of 4 GPS antennas with 2 polarizations each, I believe, for a total of 8 independent GPS signals. The antennas are in a compact package. You then can do EE bullshit to filter out around 8 sources, I think, from a paper I read on that stuff. Or just buy passive antennas that filter out anything not 10 degrees above the horizon, and remember to not bank the plane.BIG HEADLINE posted:The Blues' Dirty Loop, from the NFO seat on #7: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGvb7qN1ux4 How the blue angels don't lose a plane every other week I'll never understand.
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Nov 23, 2023 15:28
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BIG HEADLINE posted:
That looks incredible.
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Nov 23, 2023 15:34
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BIG HEADLINE posted:Also, for those who That's amazing. The only thing missing is Tom Cruise lying about them not using CGI to make it.
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Nov 23, 2023 18:27
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karoshi posted:The Iranian shahed cruise drones use an array of 4 GPS antennas with 2 polarizations each, I believe, for a total of 8 independent GPS signals. The antennas are in a compact package. You then can do EE bullshit to filter out around 8 sources, I think, from a paper I read on that stuff. Or just buy passive antennas that filter out anything not 10 degrees above the horizon, and remember to not bank the plane. If you're going crazy rolling and banking, you probably don't need gps at the moment, so you could just reject any new signals that show up when turning.
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Nov 23, 2023 18:34
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Nice livery https://www.185arw.ang.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/2701190/ang-facility-completes-blacksnake-livery-on-indiana-a-10/
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Nov 24, 2023 15:52
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Shockingly, sometimes good things come out of Indiana.
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Nov 24, 2023 16:26
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Phanatic posted:https://www.vice.com/en/article/m7bk3v/commercial-flights-are-experiencing-unthinkable-gps-attacks-and-nobody-knows-what-to-do Huh, I thought Vice went bankrupt Phanatic posted:Jamming GPS is easy, spoofing it less so, but *loving with INS* is something that shouldn't be possible short of bullets. Also I genuinely don't understand how this is possible. I'm by no means an avionics expert, but doesn't the INS use, y'know, inertia for navigation?
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Nov 24, 2023 20:10
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As someone noted earlier, you can't gently caress with the INS platform by remote control, but if your INS uses the GPS to zero out accumulated errors, bad GPS data will get passed to the INS and then it has no idea that it's wrong. It's not a problem with INS, really -- it's just that we have to start thinking differently now about the reliability of GPS. It used to be that if you were getting a good signal, the location was essentially guaranteed to be accurate, and navigation software was written with that axiom in mind. So if the INS and GPS disagreed, it was just assumed that the INS had gotten knocked around and was in error. That's no longer necessarily the case and it looks like we'll have to come up with some new methods of verifying GPS reliability -- maybe even falling back to INS by default, since although it isn't as precise as GPS, it has a predictable and well characterized error rate, and it is indeed still unspoofable. Ballistic missiles continue to use INS for primary navigation even though GPS is available and more accurate and vastly cheaper, because it's assumed that in a nuclear war the satellites will all either be spoofed, jammed, or EMP'd out of existence. Sagebrush fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Nov 24, 2023 |
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Nov 24, 2023 20:52
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Nebakenezzer posted:Huh, I thought Vice went bankrupt This is a maritime accident report for the 1995 grounding of the Royal Majesty (Norwegian cruise lines) and more about fallbacks and improper assumptions but the principles are the same (GPS/INS and course vs heading) and it explains in the accident analysis starting on page 29 how it all works. (It’s one of the things I read when first starting to work on navigation systems) https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/mar9701.pdf
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Nov 24, 2023 21:48
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Sagebrush posted:It's not a problem with INS, really -- it's just that we have to start thinking differently now about the reliability of GPS. It used to be that if you were getting a good signal, the location was essentially guaranteed to be accurate, and navigation software was written with that axiom in mind. So if the INS and GPS disagreed, it was just assumed that the INS had gotten knocked around and was in error. That's no longer necessarily the case and it looks like we'll have to come up with some new methods of verifying GPS reliability -- maybe even falling back to INS by default, since although it isn't as precise as GPS, it has a predictable and well characterized error rate, and it is indeed still unspoofable. Just to add, there certainly are things that can be done (by civilians, if you have access to M-code you are largely immune) to detect even complex spoofing operations, and even to counteract it, but they're relatively modern techniques, and I would assume (though I certainly do not know) that the GNSS receivers in an commercial aircraft avionics package would be significantly older, just by the nature of safety critical systems.
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Nov 25, 2023 04:33
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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I have a somewhat odd movie question. It's something that is stuck in a corner of my mind and although it's super unimportant, the fact that I can't find the answer is bugging me. In the 1980s or 1990s there must have been an action comedy movie which I watched as a child. Somewhere in there is a scene where some guy is rescued from an Iraqi or Lybian prison. The protagonist and the rescued guy both climb into the cockpit of a French fighter jet, awkwardly occupying the single seat for comedic effect (I'm inclined to believe it's a Mirage, hence I'm thinking of Lybia). The Pilot guy looks around the cockpit and is trying to push button, and frustratedly complains about "the loving French" because, well, everything in the cockpit is in French. They eventually manage to take off the runway and I'm sure there was some slap stick dogfight as they escape. I always thought that this was a Hot Shots movie. But last year we watched both of them and to my confusion, that scene wasn't in there. So, does anyone know where this scene is from? Is it a fever dream? I'd expect it to be another one of those spoof comedies from that era, but I've searched for hours and just can't find any movie with that sort of scene.
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Nov 27, 2023 00:46
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Lord Stimperor posted:I have a somewhat odd movie question. It's something that is stuck in a corner of my mind and although it's super unimportant, the fact that I can't find the answer is bugging me. I had a question like this once, and this thread https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3910996&pagenumber=63&perpage=40 instantly delivered.
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Nov 27, 2023 00:53
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vessbot posted:I had a question like this once, and this thread https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3910996&pagenumber=63&perpage=40 instantly delivered. Thanks. I took the question there.
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Nov 27, 2023 01:11
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I was at the EAA Museum a week or so ago and I thought I'd share this picture of the Christen Eagles hanging in the lobby. Love that place. edit: I think SA ate my picture 
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Nov 27, 2023 05:57
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Sagebrush posted:Ballistic missiles continue to use INS for primary navigation even though GPS is available and more accurate and vastly cheaper, because it's assumed that in a nuclear war the satellites will all either be spoofed, jammed, or EMP'd out of existence. INS with celestial navigation for fixes, specifically. I wonder if there's been any hairbrained DARPA white papers on spoofing stars to confuse celestial navigation systems.
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Nov 27, 2023 07:06
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Why don't we simply blow up Polaris
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Nov 27, 2023 07:07
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Coulda made a fantastic ICBM pun with that 50 odd years ago.
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Nov 27, 2023 07:29
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Dr.Smasher posted:I was at the EAA Museum a week or so ago and I thought I'd share this picture of the Christen Eagles hanging in the lobby. Love that place. If you tried to attach it you can't do a preview anymore. Preview, attach, post.
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Nov 27, 2023 08:18
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Elviscat posted:INS with celestial navigation for fixes, specifically. Or maybe this explains Starlink 
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Nov 27, 2023 19:37
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Elviscat posted:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_guide_star It’s probably very possible but likely impractical for general purposes. So, perfect for a DARPA grant for feasibility. Blue Footed Booby posted:Or maybe this explains Starlink They move too fast so would be easily filtered. The trick would be to make your fake star look like a real star; you can probably do it with a laser guide star type setup. I’m imagining you’d probably prefer having a CVN’s deck full of lasers to keep some operating for long periods of time and in confusing enough patterns but maybe not. hobbesmaster fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Nov 27, 2023 |
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Nov 27, 2023 19:56
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Blue Footed Booby posted:Or maybe this explains Starlink Except that starlink itself is a stellar object that you could easily learn the patterns of and use for accurate positioning.
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Nov 27, 2023 21:56
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Murgos posted:Except that starlink itself is a stellar object that you could easily learn the patterns of and use for accurate positioning. The satellites make little orbital adjustments too frequently for them to be useful for precise positioning.
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Nov 27, 2023 22:36
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Murgos posted:Except that starlink itself is a stellar object that you could easily learn the patterns of and use for accurate positioning. That was the whole deal with the Echo series of passive communication satelloons. Big fuckin' mylar balloons orbited to passively bounce microwave off of for over-the-horizon communication. But was also planned for use as an artificial constellation for early ICBM guidance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Echo When they flew, they were the 4th brightest objects in the night sky.
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Nov 27, 2023 22:57
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Safety Dance posted:The satellites make little orbital adjustments too frequently for them to be useful for precise positioning. Huh, didn’t know that.
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Nov 27, 2023 22:58
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Project West Ford launched millions of needles into space so that NATO could bounce radio waves off of them. It’ll hold the record for most satellites deployed in a single launch probably for all time.
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Nov 27, 2023 23:03
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Elviscat posted:INS with celestial navigation for fixes, specifically. I'm very confident some of it would have been workshopped at just. Disperse a lot of water to form a sea of ice crystals, or maybe some metallic bits, definitely feels like a plausible project to get funding for.
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Nov 28, 2023 00:45
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sextant port but it's for the x-ray telescope that unlocks pulsar navigation
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Nov 28, 2023 02:23
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shame on an IGA posted:sextant port but it's for the x-ray telescope that unlocks pulsar navigation 
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Nov 28, 2023 07:10
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