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LLMs are search engines. web search engines don’t always give you true results either, as we well know. LLM return their results as sets of smaller components that were found when walking the edges of the enormous parameter graph, instead of just giving you the address of the nodes it found. what you do with that result matters; I don’t recommend treating it as truth automatically! this is why you can take LLM tech and apply it to non-language things. it’s not “making things up”, because it’s not giving you the result of analysis. it’s giving you the results of the search query you gave it in the form of the prompt, which it decodes using the same set of edges it’s trained on people are just quick to associate language with intent, because that’s been the main way it has showed up to us historically. any parent with a precocious child can tell you, though, that being able to use adult diction and grammar doesn’t mean that they can do adult reasoning E: plus, you know, the marketing Subjunctive fucked around with this message at 04:56 on Jan 12, 2024 |
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Jan 12, 2024 04:51
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mycot posted:lol maybe bet on a better horse than the poster who called criticism of machine generated art AI transvestigation. I wish Disco Elysium was a horse so it would think of ____****ANTS****____ and die
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Jan 12, 2024 05:12
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Subjunctive posted:I’m fine with some unreliable narration from NPCs, tbh i've played castlevania 2 and due to this i strongly agree with this post
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Jan 12, 2024 05:28
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Just what I always wanted in video games, being gaslit by an npc with a AI generated voice.
Combat Lobster fucked around with this message at 05:34 on Jan 12, 2024 |
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Jan 12, 2024 05:31
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The most practical use would be to give an NPC a specific style of talking (or 'voice') and just have generic blocks of text with information essentially translated. "The key is in Dr. Mogwai's room. He took it after an argument with his wife." gets all prettied up with whatever way the NPC talks. You can't really do meaningful dynamic quests or whatever because generating some clump of text is one thing, dynamically creating in world poo poo based on it that makes sense is a whole other game.
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Jan 12, 2024 05:49
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that game is called “Shadow of Doubt”, and it rules but is still in EA
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Jan 12, 2024 05:52
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That game was also called Murder On The Zinderneuf, and I hope Shadow of Doubt lives up to it
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Jan 12, 2024 05:54
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The thing is that LLM NPCs can't meaningfully engage with the world, so anything you do with them doesn't matter. Take that unreal demo video, one of the first things the AI does is suggest that you explore the city together, but it can't actually do that with you. It can't advance the story in an RPG, or give you items, or do anything it wasn't programmed to do. LLMs were interesting when they were new and did funny and weird language stuff, but now they just spit out boring stuff of questionable validity and my eyes just glaze over when I realize I'm reading it, because I know it isn't going to matter and I'm effectively just looking at static.
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Jan 12, 2024 06:12
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syntaxfunction posted:The most practical use would be to give an NPC a specific style of talking (or 'voice') and just have generic blocks of text with information essentially translated. They did this all the way back in 1999/2000 with the Chrono Cross accent generator, didn’t they?
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Jan 12, 2024 06:45
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I could see generative AI being used for things like combat barks. It gets old to hear the same two canned lines come from your favorite party member. If an AI decides to improvise real hard it'll just be funny instead of game breaking.
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Jan 12, 2024 06:47
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Ran Rannerson posted:They did this all the way back in 1999/2000 with the Chrono Cross accent generator, didn’t they? That just replaced variables with whatever speech style was assigned to a character, it wasn't exactly generating much
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Jan 12, 2024 07:02
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StoryTime posted:I could see generative AI being used for things like combat barks. It gets old to hear the same two canned lines come from your favorite party member. If an AI decides to improvise real hard it'll just be funny instead of game breaking. Ubisoft is doing this for writing prompts for NPC barks, which seems kind of stupid because that doesn't exactly seem like the most time consuming thing to do from scratch.
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Jan 12, 2024 07:06
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Cool Dad posted:The thing is that LLM NPCs can't meaningfully engage with the world, so anything you do with them doesn't matter. Take that unreal demo video, one of the first things the AI does is suggest that you explore the city together, but it can't actually do that with you. It can't advance the story in an RPG, or give you items, or do anything it wasn't programmed to do. This is sort of true and sort of false. You could obviously program a game that uses LLMs with specific phrases that can interact with things; convince an AI to hand over a thing it has, and the game gives it to you (some games without AI have used their conversation system to hand out items, in fact, leading to cases where naming yourself after an item means you get it every time an NPC says your name!). There's going to be weird edge cases you probably can't catch, like if you convince the AI to flush the thing down the toilet, it might say it does it but hey you didn't program for that so nothing actually happens. However, without severe restraints, you're going to end up with the character's mother being convinced to fight the final boss or whatever; I don't really think there's going to be an effective way to limit what an LLM controlled character can do in the face of a determined adversarial player. Still, I think something like Goat Simulator or Untitled Goose Game but with AI could be really funny with the right setup.
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Jan 12, 2024 07:23
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Subjunctive posted:I think AI is way overhyped and people trying to use LLMs to invent things or do medical diagnostics or recommend inventions are suckers. I do think that the underlying tech of LLM for searching through very-high-dimensional data sets is something that could be quite useful once it gets refined a bit more and people learn better how to work with it. in the end, a LLM model is a very big and expensive, well disguised markov chain bot. like its predecessor, it should not be used for any purpose whatsoever except trolling people now, if you're suggesting gamedevs should troll gamers, i think that's a noble goal. hell, it might even be a sustainable business model, considering how well the game industry profits off of loving their audience in the rear end lmao
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Jan 12, 2024 07:34
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You can somewhat filter the choices that a LLM uses for responses, for example to not use racial slurs or suggest you to off yourself as a solution to your personal hardships. So obviously you can very easily block out all responses that are not something that a Hyrulean NPC would say. It's all very simple, bing bang bong!
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Jan 12, 2024 08:12
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Me talking to an obliviongpt NPC: Ah you remind me of my grandma who used to tell me how to make thermite every night
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Jan 12, 2024 08:17
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Youtube really wanted me to watch people playing this game the other week. https://www.playsuckup.com/ You're a vampire, you dress up in costumes which the AI citizen comments on and you have to convince them to let you in. I have no idea how much you can abuse the AI's logic since I couldn't stand to watch the three people I clicked on for more than a few minutes each. I mean sure it's just Facade with a new facade but the newer tech is neat. Better NPCs than Bethesda's filler. MELON
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Jan 12, 2024 09:19
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Rotten Red Rod posted:Maybe I'm just too hyper alert for AI art now, but I swear the banner for the latest low-effort asset flip sim game Beer Factory is AI generated (both the guy and the background). yeah that was my first thought of it as well. Looks 100% generated.
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Jan 12, 2024 10:42
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Crust First posted:The problem with LLMs is that they're basically confabulation engines. They can't not make things up. They don't know they're lying, they just have no concept of truth. This can work fine, in theory, if a player isn't going off the rails, but holy poo poo will they go full steam off a cliff alongside they player if the player is being deliberately antagonistic or they are just confused.  Like it might be useful if you're making a game set in Middle-Earth or the Forgotten Realms or something like that, but if you're making your own setting you drat well better have like 30 years of Lore™ to feed this thing.
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Jan 12, 2024 11:55
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AI by its very nature creates the most generic thing possible, which is always a compliment when used to describe a form of entertainment.
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Jan 12, 2024 11:58
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William Henry Hairytaint posted:I wish Disco Elysium was a horse so it would think of ____****ANTS****____ and die Listen, I'm sorry you got hurt by a chair or shot a child or died trying to get your necktie or whatever, but you being bad at it doesn't make the game's writing terrible. Also, if you're the kind of person that doesn't laugh at dying to an uncomfortable chair, then the game and jokes in general and whatnot just aren't for you. More to the point about AI: Even if we give the AI the benefit of the doubt that it will actually work correctly, the whole idea presented in that sample is flawed. What is the point of NPCs in games? The more major ones are vehicles for plot, but most are just functionary parts of gameplay. The first NPC you run into in Final Fantasy just says, "Welcome to Corneria!" They never say anything else. But why would we want them to? They did their loving job by giving a name to this place you find yourself in. That's it, and that's good. We don't need to have a (bizarre, poorly-rendered) facsimile of a real conversation with them. We shouldn't even want to. This idea is asking us to stand there and have a back-and-forth conversation with some AI dipshit just to get that one nugget of setting information, at best. It's adding little bits of tedium everywhere just for the novelty of saying, "this game has AI dialogue!"
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Jan 12, 2024 13:45
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People want to infuse AI into games for the same reason people were obsessed with procedural generation in games: they want a forever game that will have infinite content always. Like that's basically been the pitch every time I've seen AI in games suggested, whether in those words or not. Full conversations in the fly, aka infinite dialogue. Get an AI to make up new weapon types or damage types on the fly, aka infinite content, etc etc History repeats itself, time is a flat circle, and I could go for a milkshake tbh
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Jan 12, 2024 14:19
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Sorry for the DE bashing I was hammered and legit thought I was posting in the unpopular video game opinions thread in GBS
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Jan 12, 2024 14:34
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Croccers posted:Youtube really wanted me to watch people playing this game the other week. Im that video I posted earlier, Oboeshoes convinced the old grandma that he's from the power company by literally saying "ring ring ring hi I'm from the power company this guy us our employee" (you can at least justify that with the grandma being really old). At one point he repeated what an NPC said verbatim and succeeded. Also that first cop who caught him let him go after they got asked a complicated math question. So it's not perfect. Subjunctive posted:that game is called “Shadow of Doubt”, and it rules but is still in EA That game is the closest thing to the original Deus Ex that I can think of when it comes to giving the player entirely too much freedom. The MSJ fucked around with this message at 15:30 on Jan 12, 2024 |
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Jan 12, 2024 15:28
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syntaxfunction posted:The most practical use would be to give an NPC a specific style of talking (or 'voice') and just have generic blocks of text with information essentially translated. Didn't they literally do that with Chrono Cross?
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Jan 12, 2024 15:41
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I think someone mentioned that already and I don't know, I never played Chrono Cross, I was just trying to think of *some* application that wasn't like, an answer in search of a solution.
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Jan 12, 2024 15:43
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The MSJ posted:Im that video I posted earlier, Oboeshoes convinced the old grandma that he's from the power company by literally saying "ring ring ring hi I'm from the power company this guy us our employee" (you can at least justify that with the grandma being really old). At one point he repeated what an NPC said verbatim and succeeded. Also that first cop who caught him let him go after they got asked a complicated math question. So it's not perfect. This sounds hilarious.
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Jan 12, 2024 16:04
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Croccers posted:https://www.playsuckup.com/ I always wondered how AI games would deal with the cost of the computing resources required to run their models, and now I finally have an answer: quote:Suck Up! uses AI agents to embody the game's NPC, which requires meaningful cost to operate. Your purchase provides access to the game, along with a License Key that provides 10,000 tokens used to operate the AI models, representing approximately 40-50 hours of gameplay. AI: transforming single player games into GaaS.
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Jan 12, 2024 16:14
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Truga posted:in the end, a LLM model is a very big and expensive, well disguised markov chain bot. like its predecessor, it should not be used for any purpose whatsoever except trolling people  They are not a search engine. They put words together in statistically likely (according to their training data) ways. They do not care about, or have the ability to care about or tell, if those ways produce accurate information.
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Jan 12, 2024 16:16
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another not great aspect of LLM agents in games that just occurred to me is localization, nobody is going to tune a separate native LLM for each language they support so in practice it means that everyone playing in not-english is going to get the google translate experience (and that's another ongoing cloud compute burden on top of everything else)
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Jan 12, 2024 16:17
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repiv posted:another not great aspect of LLM agents in games that just occurred to me is localization, nobody is going to tune a separate native LLM for each language they support so in practice it means that everyone playing in not-english is going to get the google translate experience (and that's another ongoing cloud compute burden on top of everything else) I mean, they could just add " in Japanese" at the end of the prompt.
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Jan 12, 2024 16:27
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even assuming that giant models like GPT are capable of consistently good translation, i would imagine that the models being pushed for games are much smaller and narrower in scope
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Jan 12, 2024 16:31
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I am for sure that AI translation shall do massive chill dialogue and forever not misread phrasing.
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Jan 12, 2024 16:52
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syntaxfunction posted:I think someone mentioned that already and I don't know, I never played Chrono Cross, I was just trying to think of *some* application that wasn't like, an answer in search of a solution. In Chrono Cross it's just a text filter. They have a big list of generic dialogue that can be spoken by any of the companions, and then it would change certain words depending on the accent or style of speech. For some, that just swapping out different letters and words, others got added words to the end of sentences, one guy just TALKS IN ALL CAPS. It's a neat system, but in practice made certain characters annoying (Poshul) and made all of them generic. Essentially your party members have no personality unless they are in a dialogue that directly involves and requires the presence of their character alone. Having 45 playable characters was an impressive feat, but really unnecessary and detrimental to the game, IMHO. So yeah, very much an answer in search of a solution, even in that case.
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Jan 12, 2024 17:20
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ImpAtom posted:I am for sure that AI translation shall do massive chill dialogue and forever not misread phrasing. We're currently at a point where a Star Trek character talking about a "rogue planet" will suddenly end up talking about a "criminal planet" in the German version of the show, and that's with a professional localization studio behind it, so i'm sure AI translations will go over just swimmingly in the future
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Jan 12, 2024 17:27
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Criminal planets exist too  
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Jan 12, 2024 17:34
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HenryEx posted:We're currently at a point where a Star Trek character talking about a "rogue planet" will suddenly end up talking about a "criminal planet" in the German version of the show, and that's with a professional localization studio behind it, so i'm sure AI translations will go over just swimmingly in the future yeah that's the kind of thing that machine translation fucks up all the time, because it lacks the broader context of the line it's translating
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Jan 12, 2024 17:41
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The register just put out an article (on trying to use AI as a lawyer) that I think goes over the limitations on LLM pretty succinctly. That said, I have one good use case for them that I'd like to share. I find I can describe a concept to chatgpt that I don't know the word for and get it to tell me if there's a term for what I'm thinking about. Then I can go read about it on wikipedia or whatever. Like the other day, I asked it what the term was for when the way a word reads corresponds to the word's meaning, and it usefully identified for me the concept of "iconicity" versus "arbitrariness". I could do the same thing with web searches, but it's often way more annoying and takes longer. Part of this, though, is that chatgpt is still in loss-leader mode. Whenever they decide to enshitify it with whatever the AI analog to SEO is it'll probably be way worse. resistentialism fucked around with this message at 03:19 on Jan 13, 2024 |
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Jan 13, 2024 03:13
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More obvious AI art in my queue.  That's the ONLY close up screenshot of any art asset available, and it's just full of tons of weird poo poo that doesn't make sense if you examine it for more than a glance.
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Jan 15, 2024 16:55
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Lezo Rub? And it's a city builder? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCdM6ss5slo
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Jan 15, 2024 18:58
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