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You could probably make an argument that Jonas had all the same personality flaws as Rusty, except that he was professionally successful because he had ridiculous funding, and sexually successful because he had the right genes to be hot, so that doing the same things Rusty habitually does had completely different results.
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Jan 24, 2024 06:19
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New Yorp New Yorp posted:You keep using this and I have no idea what it means. Probably "In Regards To."
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Jan 24, 2024 06:36
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Well, a big part of it is that Jonas is Rusty's main if not only role model- he's constantly trying to emulate Jonas in his business and personal life, despite being terrible at it (and actually pretty good when he does things his own way) because that was embedded in him as what success is supposed to look like. However, he's not good at it not only because he has massive trauma, stunted social skills and a poor understanding of the very different world he lives in, but because he has the vestiges of a conscience.
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Jan 24, 2024 06:37
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Well, a big part of it is that Jonas is Rusty's main if not only role model- he's constantly trying to emulate Jonas in his business and personal life, despite being terrible at it (and actually pretty good when he does things his own way) because that was embedded in him as what success is supposed to look like. So I guess the question is, where would Rusty be if he looked like Jonas and had so much money even he couldn't burn through it all?
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Jan 24, 2024 06:43
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Rand Brittain posted:So I guess the question is, where would Rusty be if he looked like Jonas and had so much money even he couldn't burn through it all? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBcFQ5znYCc#t=21s
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Jan 24, 2024 06:47
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Rand Brittain posted:So I guess the question is, where would Rusty be if he looked like Jonas and had so much money even he couldn't burn through it all? Jonas Jr?
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Jan 24, 2024 06:48
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I AM GRANDO posted:Jonas Jr? Pretty much the joke with Jonas Jr is that he's more or less Rusty minus the trauma and with actual social skills and a modern education.
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Jan 24, 2024 09:41
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And yet the unspoken tragedy is that for all his successful attempts to emulate him, JJ would still never be accepted by Jonas because of his physical deformities.
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Jan 24, 2024 11:45
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New Yorp New Yorp posted:You keep using this and I have no idea what it means. It's "In Regards To" On a different subject: Anybody wonder what happen to Richie Valens (in the Venture Bros universe)? (For those unaware he was the 3rd musician who died in the tragic plane crash known as 'the day the music died' with Buddy Holly and the Big Bopper. (Or as they are known in the VB universe Red Mantle and Dragoon). Ghost Leviathan posted:However, he's not good at it not only because he has massive trauma, stunted social skills and a poor understanding of the very different world he lives in, but because he has the vestiges of a conscience. The difference between Rusty and Jonas: Jonas would have let Desmond drop. https://youtu.be/aBNBeBXg5kw?t=77 ChrisBTY fucked around with this message at 11:50 on Jan 24, 2024 |
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Jan 24, 2024 11:47
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Ritchie Valens still died in the plane crash. Poor Ritchie, he was this close to getting his wings too.
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Jan 24, 2024 12:03
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i get it, i get why they did it, but "the sovereign was just PRETENDING to be david bowie" is still a rare misstep
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Jan 24, 2024 13:35
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Big agree
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Jan 24, 2024 13:43
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David Bowie is a Dread Pirate Roberts situation, frankly, and furthermore
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Jan 24, 2024 14:40
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pablo gbscobar posted:And yet the unspoken tragedy is that for all his successful attempts to emulate him, JJ would still never be accepted by Jonas because of his physical deformities. Jonas would try to 'fix' him like he 'fixed' Humungulo. (Actually I'm not 100% sure Jonas is responsible for that). Jonas...loved Rusty as much as a narcissist is capable of loving another. I'll admit I'm a little irked that they pivoted from 'Jonas is the hero' to 'Jonas is an unambiguous villain' from seasons 2-3 and never portrayed Jonas in any kind of positive light after that. The only time Jonas was portrayed as remotely human after that was when he looked guilty when young Quymn was ushered away when she tried to hug him. It wouldn't bother me so much but Ben giving Hank that watch right at the end of the movie just made me go 'oh don't go starting this poo poo 3 minutes from the end of the series' Also: my theory about Rusty/Malcolm's origin got debunked, but barely. I assumed Jonas was making a clone of himself in Jonas Jr but tainted the tank with Blue Morpho's DNA sample from also making Malcolm. When something that was very much not a clone of Jonas emerged from the tank Jonas just decided to go with it for whatever reason. Jonas Jr was...not explained but not every plot thread can be taut. ChrisBTY fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Jan 25, 2024 |
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Jan 25, 2024 21:21
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Nikumatic posted:i get it, i get why they did it, but "the sovereign was just PRETENDING to be david bowie" is still a rare misstep Why DID they do it? I really liked the Sovereign just randomly being the actual David Bowie.
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Jan 25, 2024 23:50
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Phenotype posted:Why DID they do it? I really liked the Sovereign just randomly being the actual David Bowie. They almost got the real Bowie in to do the voice, and when that fell through they realized that having the character continue to be the actual, factual David Bowie was scraping closer and closer to the boundaries of what fair use would allow.
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Jan 25, 2024 23:59
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It was also relatively cute when first introduced like “oh hey David Bowie is the leader of these colorful villains!” but as the series goes on and he becomes more of an actual character and in particular starts trying to murder some of our main characters it gets a bit awkward. I think it was the right choice to nix that aspect.
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Jan 26, 2024 00:26
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Wait, are you saying the actual David Bowie couldn't shape shift?
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Jan 26, 2024 00:31
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Jimbone Tallshanks posted:Wait, are you saying the actual David Bowie couldn't shape shift? No it's more fair use is if you ask someone and they turn you down, you can't just put them in and have someone impersonate them. But if you don't ask you can totally just do that. I think they bring this up in the commentary track for that episode. Or maybe just AS lawyers were worried about it. It may have been more risk than AS was willing to take at that point.
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Jan 26, 2024 00:39
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Jan 26, 2024 00:39
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they didn't even depict Christopher Lam-BERT's face later on. maybe it was a legal thing.
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Jan 26, 2024 03:13
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It's also impressive that they managed to kill off Bowie and end that thread just before the real one died- doubly so considering the show's stupidly long turnaround times.
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Jan 26, 2024 09:04
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yes, what an amazing coincidence and not at all a sign of how far the diabolical hand of mike lazzo is able to reach
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Jan 26, 2024 09:26
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Pretty much the whole joke with Jonas Venture is that a pulp hero is pretty much indistinguishable from a sociopath with good publicity.
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Jan 26, 2024 12:54
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Jan 26, 2024 13:01
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I'm winning the day!
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Jan 27, 2024 10:14
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Like, the implicit TF2/Portal/Venture Bros crossovers they've had with Poker Night are very fitting because Saxton Hale is basically a different kind of parody of the same thing Jonas is riffing on. Powerful privileged men treating the world as their personal playground with no real consequences for their actions thanks to having money and guns, and no real ability nor desire to function in normal society because of it.
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Jan 27, 2024 18:39
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Saxton and Cave Johnson would be right at home in the Venture Bros universe, that's for sure.
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Jan 27, 2024 19:40
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Jonas Venture, Saxton Hale and Cave Johnson would all be friends on the surface but work to undermine each other at every opportunity.
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Jan 27, 2024 20:05
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Often literally. The crux of their disagreements would be what to do with the moon. Colonization? Study the applications of moon rocks? Turn it into some kind of habitat for killer mutant moon rabbits? Perfectly trisect it and do all three???
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Jan 27, 2024 21:11
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Pretty much the joke with Jonas Jr is that he's more or less Rusty minus the trauma and with actual social skills and a modern education. JJ also is an *actual* competent scientist unlike his father and manages to build a massive business empire without cold war cash spigot. And in the end showed he had genuine love for his brother as well as being in general a decent human. Rusty at the end of the show was doing super-science his father never did. And there is also the hint that Jonas never did anything by himself, he had others who I would suggest were smarter / more competent than he was. Jonas might have the reputation but his sons turned out better than he ever was.
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Jan 27, 2024 22:17
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Jonas Jr had hints of insecurity about being a producer of consumer goods vs a genuine scientist discovering and adventuring and definitely seemed insecure in his status as a Venture. All of his usurpation of Rusty is a mostly doomed attempt to make himself part of the Venture legacy, like especially any time he invites the old team Venture to an event and inserts himself into group photos or treats them like they have any idea who he is or care about him at all. He’s a success in some ways, but not in the ways he wants. In a weird way he wants what Rusty has in Rusty’s genuine familiarity with and history in the superscience world. Rusty has no interest in that poo poo, but he knows the game and has legitimacy there, and Jonas Jr wants to be let inside despite being much better off than Rusty overall.
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Jan 27, 2024 23:13
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Jimbone Tallshanks posted:The crux of their disagreements would be what to do with the moon. Colonization? Study the applications of moon rocks? Turn it into some kind of habitat for killer mutant moon rabbits? Perfectly trisect it and do all three??? Saxon Hale may want to blow it up because Moon science is innovation, and innovation is a threat to his inexplicably lucrative business of selling old, duct-taped-together guns to nine mercenaries fighting over a gravel pit. Unless someone can convince him that Moon Science may advanced hat technology, the only thing he loves more than bilking those nine mercenaries.
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Jan 27, 2024 23:20
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CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:JJ also is an *actual* competent scientist unlike his father and manages to build a massive business empire without cold war cash spigot. And in the end showed he had genuine love for his brother as well as being in general a decent human. Just going to go ahead and disagree on the emboldened part, there. Rusty showed that having a bunch of money and science stuff around doesn't make you an amazing scientist or businessman; he burned through his inheritance (well, the part that didn't go to State University). Literally everyone on the show is adamant that Jonas was an excellent scientist, even Rusty in the episode "O. R. B." The guy made Helper. He created clones. He made a shrink ray. He turned his dead friend into a cyborg. He built a space station. And that last one, sure, let's say the government paid for it--but who designed it and made it work? A lot of negative things can be said about Jonas Venture. "Bad at science" is not one of those things. The show is pretty clear about this. Hell, saying he was bad at business is a dubious claim, because while he may have made most of his money through government contracts, he still made that money, unlike a lot of his contemporaries and even his son, whose career in superscience overlapped the Cold War for a while. Also, in the show, it's pretty clear that the government still is looking to superscience for help with its... extracurricular activities, shall we say? ChrisBTY posted:Jonas would try to 'fix' him like he 'fixed' Humungulo. (Actually I'm not 100% sure Jonas is responsible for that). Good luck with that argument; I've been eviscerated for suggesting as much. People who didn't have lovely fathers don't seem to understand that lovely fathers aren't 100% lovely 100% of the time. Taken on the whole, my dad was a lovely father. If I told you all half the bad poo poo he did to me and my family, and then made up four times as many good things he did than he actually did, you'd still come to the conclusion that he was lovely. He was absent for years, practically absent when he was around, and borderline emotionally abusive. I mean, I had to endure a literal 3-hour yelling lecture about what an rear end in a top hat was and why I was one, and my crime was turning off a window air conditioner in the morning, and he had trouble sleeping during the day (he worked midnights) because it was too warm*. I was maybe 12 years old? But, I had to get over it, because he was actually around for a change, and that was that. He was Jonas Venture, but without all that fame and success. But... I do have some fond memories of him. Every now and then, he justified his existence in my life, and a few times, he actually did go above and beyond. There were genuinely good times. They were few and far between, sure, and they didn't make up for the years of neglect or emotional abuse, but they happened. Pretending that they didn't doesn't make him seem worse; it's just dishonest. While we only see bad memories and flashbacks of Jonas, and those bad flashbacks are deservedly the bulk of Rusty's memories of his dad, I like to think that he's complex enough a character to have occasionally done something good with or for his son. In his own way, I'm sure he tried to be a decent dad, even if he only tried once in a great while, or if his attempts were ill-advised or subconsciously rooted in his narcissism. * The best part of that event was when he was drawing to a conclusion and decided to quiz me by asking if I knew what an rear end in a top hat was. I said, "Yes; me." Then he blew up again, and my mom finally stepped in and told him that of course I said that, because he'd just made himself over an hour late for work drilling it into my head. That's right--he made himself late for work so he could deliver this lesson to me. tarlibone fucked around with this message at 23:27 on Jan 27, 2024 |
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Jan 27, 2024 23:23
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Jonas was also the child of a superscientist so it was probably just a cycle of abuse kind of thing.
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Jan 27, 2024 23:27
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One of the more interesting Rusty moments is that when—after the series has teased Rusty getting the chance to talk to Jonas maybe three or four times—Rusty is actually able to talk to Jonas while he’s in the PROBLEM, Rusty instantly closes himself off emotionally and rolls his eyes at Jonas not knowing what wifi is called, totally dismissing a) the wild opportunity he has, b) the genuine accomplishment Jonas has made in figuring out how to communicate with his watch, and c) that Jonas has actually done a really good job of figuring out how things work in 2020 from inside a box given that he’s been asleep for 40 years. It’s a pretty good view into emotional self-protection. Despite his considerable accomplishment, Jonas earned and deserves that dismissal. He also deserves being refused because he suggests murder as a way to keep himself alive, but that’s kind of incidental from Rusty’s point of view.
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Jan 27, 2024 23:40
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CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:Rusty at the end of the show was doing super-science his father never did. And there is also the hint that Jonas never did anything by himself, he had others who I would suggest were smarter / more competent than he was. Jonas might have the reputation but his sons turned out better than he ever was. Ehhhhhhh. A lot of the tech Rusty shits out in the last season and the movie came out of Billy and Pete's ingenuity. Of course, we don't know the exact distribution of work/design especially with the telepods, but it's pretty obvious they were heavily if not mostly involved.
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Jan 28, 2024 00:02
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I AM GRANDO posted:In a weird way he wants what Rusty has in Rusty’s genuine familiarity with and history in the superscience world. Those two were both incredibly jealous of one-another. We just never saw Jonas seething about it like we did Rusty. That wasn't his way.
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Jan 28, 2024 02:35
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I get the vibe that Jonas Jr originally set out to surpass Rusty out of jealousy, and then probably had some introspection after he succeeded, almost effortlessly. Probably realising what the viewers and everyone else did that Rusty is an incredibly broken person, who's genuinely unable to make good use of his talents and resources due to being basically taught everything wrong, and for a defective clone Jonas Jr actually got off pretty good. JJ ended up being a legitimately good and magnanimous person, if in over his head in ways he never realised given he'd dealt with the Investors and all. I also get the impression from the hints of the future that JJ might have gotten Rusty used to the idea of having brothers and peers he can get along with, antagonism or otherwise. AlternateNu posted:Ehhhhhhh. A lot of the tech Rusty shits out in the last season and the movie came out of Billy and Pete's ingenuity. Of course, we don't know the exact distribution of work/design especially with the telepods, but it's pretty obvious they were heavily if not mostly involved. Going by the Helper pod thingies, there is a legitimate collaborative process with the super-scientists on a good day, though definitely a recurring problem that Rusty tends to overdo it without telling anyone. Actually kinda funny how the problem ends up being Rusty overengineering things to ridiculous degrees, when he's not irresponsibly cutting corners (or both!) and I think it explains a lot about him; he's got no concept of discipline or budgeting, and like probably every single cartoon super-scientist he makes stuff that works far too well with no thought as to the consequences. Which probably works fine when it comes to selling overpriced war crimes to the US military, but it simply doesn't work for mass production on the consumer market. Probably rambling, but I've said before getting a modern education- all those PHDs in a month and so on- probably helped JJ a lot in getting up to speed with the modern world, and his company focused on consumer electronics and rebuilding some of Jonas' projects like with Gargantua-2; building on existing stuff that has clear demand, and also conveniently nothing so revolutionary that it'd attract the OSI's attention, like the teleporter. The OSI secret floor probably existed in the Venture building for a long time before Rusty moved in. TK-42-1 posted:Jonas was also the child of a superscientist so it was probably just a cycle of abuse kind of thing. I think it's implied that Jonas had a pretty stable if boring childhood, more boarding school than being dragged off on adventures, and his idea with dragging Rusty everywhere has iirc been described as him being a Weekend Dad 24/7 going way too far the other way. Ditocoaf posted:Jonas Venture, Saxton Hale and Cave Johnson would all be friends on the surface but work to undermine each other at every opportunity. While I dunno about Hale, Poker Night 2 does have mentions that Jonas and Cave Johnson were buddies, and probably similarly made trouble for each other on purpose and otherwise. Ghost Leviathan fucked around with this message at 06:34 on Jan 28, 2024 |
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Jan 28, 2024 04:10
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A few other things: ~ Monarch downplayed the role that his ex dating Rusty played into his hatred of Rusty (even if in reality she didn't). Then when pressed he couldn't give a solid answer as to why he actually hates Rusty so much. Seems like the subtext the real reason is just him flat out projecting his self-loathing onto another version of himself. Even if Monarch didn't know about their connection he likely felt some manner of similarity on an instinctual level. Monarch did say he hates himself more than most villains hate their arches. ~ Somebody pointed out something about Jonas beyond his simply monstrous narcissism: he couldn't face his failures. Venturion? Just threw him in the trash when he malfunctioned. Major Tom's crashed aircraft? Left at the bottom of the sea (out of 'respect for the dead' he said. Obviously a lie because you know, Venturion and all that). MUTHER malfunctions? Unplug her from the mainframe and forget about her. Don't go back for the orphans because they're another symbol of his failure with MUTHER. Go back for Humungulo? Well that's two failures down there. Jonas sure as hell wasn't going to deal with that. Given that this is a show about failure this shows in one way almost every single character in the show is better than Jonas in at least one way. Nobody else runs from their failures like Jonas does. ~ Also: who is your least favorite character and why is it Dermott? Gods I hate him. Just the absolute wrong combination of self-aggrandizing chuuni and vaguely aggressive not quite a bully but mostly because he's bad at being a bully type. He's also the least self-aware character in the series outside of Jonas. ChrisBTY fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Feb 1, 2024 |
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Feb 1, 2024 16:28
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