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The most heel submission move is the Crippler Crossface. Because Triple H used to do it.
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Mar 21, 2024 14:59
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ChrisBTY posted:The Abdominal Stretch because it's primary purpose is to generate heat by having partners/outside interference help the heel apply illegal leverage. I remember in Chikara there was a title match that ended with a face making the heel tap to the abdominal stretch. It was really weird to see because the move is usually more of a heel move to slow the match down and get heat on the face, but it was actually handled really well. The face (Dasher Hatfield) was a lot taller than the heel (Travis Huckabee) and they played it like there was a struggle for Dasher to stand up straight and once he did, he had it locked in and it looked like he was tearing the guy in half, causing an immediate tapout.
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Mar 21, 2024 15:30
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Halloween Jack posted:Did the Steiners often do the Recliner when they were faces? Nope. The Recliner was specifically Scott's move. He used the Frankensteiner (obviously more of a babyface move) as part of the Steiner Brothers team, then in the mid-late 90's got a lot bigger and less agile and couldn't reliably do the move any longer. So he used the Recliner primarily during his heel run.
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Mar 21, 2024 15:34
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rujasu posted:Nope. The Recliner was specifically Scott's move. He used the Frankensteiner (obviously more of a babyface move) as part of the Steiner Brothers team, then in the mid-late 90's got a lot bigger and less agile and couldn't reliably do the move any longer. So he used the Recliner primarily during his heel run. The joke was Steiner did the Recliner so he could have a nice sit down.
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Mar 21, 2024 16:47
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I would say that submissions are heel coded by default. Yes, faces do submissions and some of them are more associated with face wrestlers, and I would also say that in lucha libre, submission wrestling is not quite as heel coded, but, in the end, even when a face does a submission hold ,there is a certain amount of aggressive intent to harm involved that can often draw some boos.
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Mar 21, 2024 19:08
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That might explain why I have always sort of thought of MMA as the evil version of boxing (not that there is anything "good" about boxing) because grabbing someone and choking/tearing them until they give up is a lot more "schoolyard bully" than standing and punching each other until someone actually is just out
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Mar 21, 2024 19:34
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It's like the opposite of actual fighting logic where you'd much rather tap to an armbar and walk away probably unscathed, versus getting dropped on your head. Complicated submissions where the victim doesn't have an obvious avenue to fight their way out always seemed more heelish to me. Surfboards are extra evil because you're standing on the backs of their legs, ouch!
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Mar 21, 2024 19:41
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Where do you guys put flashy but brutal looking ones like the Gory Special or Bow and Arrow
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Mar 21, 2024 19:45
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Kvlt! posted:Oh right I forgot about that, it was a little different iirc his opponents legs were kinda wrapped around his head almost? I should add that I think your general impression is right though, that the piledriver leans heel. Sting is a really notable exception, but I feel like if you made a list, it would lean heavily in the heel column.
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Mar 21, 2024 19:51
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Nehru the Damaja posted:I should add that I think your general impression is right though, that the piledriver leans heel. Sting is a really notable exception, but I feel like if you made a list, it would lean heavily in the heel column. I feel like that's only because the piledriver's been positioned as instant death in US wrestling for the past twenty years. Jerry Lawler was the biggest face in Memphis, and he piledrived every heel in the company. It's innately flashy and violent, but it's not innately heel by itself. Maybe a bit cool antihero at most. But you add WWE banning it, and now the piledriver has a mystique. It's a move that's going to kill a guy, and if you use that as a face you're either a spooky antihero or you're desperate enough to do something dangerous. It made the move heel.
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Mar 21, 2024 20:16
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Takako Inoue did a tombstone piledriver where she walked forward a few steps and knee'd you in the face a few times before dropping you on your head and she was a face
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Mar 21, 2024 20:20
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remusclaw posted:I would say that submissions are heel coded by default. Yes, faces do submissions and some of them are more associated with face wrestlers, and I would also say that in lucha libre, submission wrestling is not quite as heel coded, but, in the end, even when a face does a submission hold ,there is a certain amount of aggressive intent to harm involved that can often draw some boos. I'd disagree, possibly down to the wrestler I most associated with submissions as a kid was Bret, and he was basically THE good guy in WWF at the time. And then Jericho was my favourite for a long time in the early 00s and he was often a face. And, obviously, John Cena (yes, his STF is bad, but he still does it), and Bryan Danielson.
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Mar 21, 2024 20:50
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Gavok posted:I remember in Chikara there was a title match that ended with a face making the heel tap to the abdominal stretch. It was really weird to see because the move is usually more of a heel move to slow the match down and get heat on the face, but it was actually handled really well. The face (Dasher Hatfield) was a lot taller than the heel (Travis Huckabee) and they played it like there was a struggle for Dasher to stand up straight and once he did, he had it locked in and it looked like he was tearing the guy in half, causing an immediate tapout. I suddenly want to see Satnam Singh do this to somebody. Has AEW given up on Satnam as a wrestler? I think I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen him wrestle in the last 12 months and I haven't seen him wrestle at all this year. Not that I'm eager to see somebody with a very obvious athletic ceiling wrestle but it's curious as to what his future will be.
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Mar 21, 2024 21:27
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Gaz-L posted:I'd disagree, possibly down to the wrestler I most associated with submissions as a kid was Bret, and he was basically THE good guy in WWF at the time. And then Jericho was my favourite for a long time in the early 00s and he was often a face. otoh, submissions with the "drop the arm 3 times" spot are almost always heel, so that a face can start quivering right before the 3rd drop and do a dramatic comeback.
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Mar 21, 2024 21:59
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Nehru the Damaja posted:Where do you guys put flashy but brutal looking ones like the Gory Special or Bow and Arrow Semi-related: Does anybody remember who would turn the Gory Special into powerbomb?
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Mar 21, 2024 22:36
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I know he played a face for a good chunk of the final years of his career but Mankind’s Mandible Claw feels very heel-coded to me.
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Mar 22, 2024 01:01
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ChrisBTY posted:I suddenly want to see Satnam Singh do this to somebody. I dont think he was ever pegged to do more than be a heater for a chicken poo poo heel. Hes weirdly charismatic and hes just athletic to do stuff I think he should be a manager.
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Mar 22, 2024 02:32
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The dynamic of "terrifying manager and weak pathetic heel" could definitely have some momentum, if he pops in to chokeslam his charge's opponents when the ref is chastising the wrestler for cheating some other way
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Mar 22, 2024 02:47
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Dr. Quarex posted:The dynamic of "terrifying manager and weak pathetic heel" could definitely have some momentum, if he pops in to chokeslam his charge's opponents when the ref is chastising the wrestler for cheating some other way That's definitely a dynamic that happens, but they're usually "enforcers" or "bodyguards" at that point rather than "managers." Christian & Tomko, for example.
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Mar 22, 2024 03:11
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Oh huh, I never saw Tomko and did forget that Diesel probably did do that with Michaels huh
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Mar 22, 2024 03:30
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Also dont forgrt the power duo of Y2J and Mr Hughes
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Mar 22, 2024 04:02
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finalcake posted:I know he played a face for a good chunk of the final years of his career but Mankind’s Mandible Claw feels very heel-coded to me. He had it ever since his WWE debut when he was a heel. It lost a lot of the menace when he started wearing a sock puppet to do it.
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Mar 22, 2024 04:14
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In his debut WWE match he left Bob Holly puking from the Claw, which was either a pretty good effect or a shoot, who knows
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Mar 22, 2024 04:36
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ChrisBTY posted:He had it ever since his WWE debut when he was a heel. It lost a lot of the menace when he started wearing a sock puppet to do it. Otoh far more believable to give up so your opponent is forced to take their stinky cock sock out of your mouth
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Mar 22, 2024 05:11
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Sam Sheppard, who the character Richard Kimble of The Fugitive series and movie is based on, wrestled after he was acquitted and is credited with first using the mandible claw. I guess the question is if he worked as a heel or a face.
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Mar 22, 2024 05:15
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rujasu posted:That's definitely a dynamic that happens, but they're usually "enforcers" or "bodyguards" at that point rather than "managers." Christian & Tomko, for example.
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Mar 22, 2024 05:32
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Hey Wall!
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Mar 22, 2024 07:15
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Paul Wight should manage Satnam and Satnam’s only moves should be the chokeslam and the big punch and he should win all of his matches. And then when’s he’s held the big belt for like a year he should drop it to Will Ospreay at All In. Now THATS how you book a territory, brother.
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Mar 22, 2024 16:30
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Gaz-L posted:I'd disagree, possibly down to the wrestler I most associated with submissions as a kid was Bret, and he was basically THE good guy in WWF at the time. And then Jericho was my favourite for a long time in the early 00s and he was often a face. I think maybe I could amend my statement having thought about it a bit and taking this into account. I would say that submissions get more heelish the longer they are held. A heel should tap almost immediately to a face submission hold. This brings me to Bryan Danielson, who in AEW, face or heel, has always had the most heelish submissions regardless. Bryan Danielson murders people in an uncomfortable way, no matter whether you are supposed to cheer him today or not, but that is of course why I love the man.
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Mar 23, 2024 12:10
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remusclaw posted:I think maybe I could amend my statement having thought about it a bit and taking this into account. I would say that submissions get more heelish the longer they are held. A heel should tap almost immediately to a face submission hold. This brings me to Bryan Danielson, who in AEW, face or heel, has always had the most heelish submissions regardless. Bryan Danielson murders people in an uncomfortable way, no matter whether you are supposed to cheer him today or not, but that is of course why I love the man. I agree with this. I think its also the WAY they are applied as time goes on. Bret cranking up the intensity/time on the Sharpshooter had a "Im putting you in pain so I can win as all wrestlers do and hopefully putting you in more pain will make you tap so I can let you go" vibe Whereas heel holds tend to have a "Im cranking up the intensity/time to win but I am also delighting in your pain/agony" vibe.
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Mar 23, 2024 18:29
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GokuGoesSSj69 posted:Sam Sheppard, who the character Richard Kimble of The Fugitive series and movie is based on, wrestled after he was acquitted and is credited with first using the mandible claw. I guess the question is if he worked as a heel or a face. If I'm remembering Mick's book correctly, he was a physician and his wrestling name was Killer Sheppard, so probably a heel I would imagine. (Though his last match on Cage match is vs Assasins #1&2, so who knows)
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Mar 23, 2024 19:07
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We hear a lot about wrestlers who put on mass and stepped up their game and star power. Omega and Ospreay becoming heavyweights and more complete wrestlers. Swerve now looking like an inevitable world champion. Drew McIntyre going from comedy jobber to world champ. But who has *lost* a lot of weight and improved their craft and position on the card? To be clear, I'm not talking about fat guys who get in shape (e.g. Akira Tozawa) but more like Ric Flair, who was a huge boy before his back injury forced him to cut down to a more slender frame.
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Mar 24, 2024 02:39
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Jon Moxley going away for a little while in 2021 and coming back looking and performing great when we had not realized he looked bad beforehand immediately comes to mind
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Mar 24, 2024 03:42
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Big Show when he was able to take time off from the road and get in shape would fit the description I think
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Mar 24, 2024 03:55
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Defenestrategy posted:Otoh far more believable to give up so your opponent is forced to take their stinky cock sock out of your mouth The optics are better but if you know how it works the mandible claw is PAINFUL. You'd get your fingers bitten trying to lock it in but if you're successful your opponent's jaw isn't going anywhere you don't want it to.
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Mar 24, 2024 04:07
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Dr. Quarex posted:Jon Moxley going away for a little while in 2021 and coming back looking and performing great when we had not realized he looked bad beforehand immediately comes to mind What surprised me most there was how not only was he in better condition, but suddenly his wrestling was a lot more complete. Suddenly he was doing dropsteps into suplexes and it was like "who the gently caress *is* this guy?"
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Mar 24, 2024 04:08
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Nehru the Damaja posted:But who has *lost* a lot of weight and improved their craft and position on the card? To be clear, I'm not talking about fat guys who get in shape (e.g. Akira Tozawa) but more like Ric Flair, who was a huge boy before his back injury forced him to cut down to a more slender frame. It's funny you bring up Flair because Steamboat also slimmed down and was one of the best wrestlers in the world. He was never bad, or even less than good really, but he still upped his game.
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Mar 24, 2024 04:55
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Nehru the Damaja posted:What surprised me most there was how not only was he in better condition, but suddenly his wrestling was a lot more complete. Suddenly he was doing dropsteps into suplexes and it was like "who the gently caress *is* this guy?" He went away to get sober from booze iirc, so I imagine kicking that he felt a lot better physically and was able to perform better
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Mar 24, 2024 08:00
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Nehru the Damaja posted:We hear a lot about wrestlers who put on mass and stepped up their game and star power. Omega and Ospreay becoming heavyweights and more complete wrestlers. Swerve now looking like an inevitable world champion. Drew McIntyre going from comedy jobber to world champ. WALTER / Gunther has done well for himself recently
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Mar 24, 2024 12:16
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Dr. Quarex posted:Jon Moxley going away for a little while in 2021 and coming back looking and performing great when we had not realized he looked bad beforehand immediately comes to mind I loved how Mox looked before he went to rehab, tbh. I’m glad he got sober obviously but he had a look for a brief time that seemed unique at the time, just looked like a big beefy bruiser who was going to gently caress you up. Felt like a very 70s/80s look.
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Mar 24, 2024 12:24
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