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chiasaur11 posted:Really, though, even the absolute worst people Post Disaster were just regular lovely, without the crazy apocalyptic goals that most shows reach. The wannabe clown freak piloting the Gusion doesn't need apocalypse goals but he's still a crazy fucker who uses child soldiers. It's kinda hilarious how people keep trying to pull out doomsday weapons like mobile armours or dainsleifs. They're certainly nasty business but on a more immediate "fucks your mobile suits up pretty bad" level than a button that erases all existence, a photon torpedo, colony buster, murder coffin death star or psychic newtype shockwave. Even McGillis hauling out the Bael to try and instill some mythical symbol of justice that will rally people to his cause is met with little more than a "cute antique, boy." It's oddly down to earth at the end of the day compared to some other AUs.
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Apr 3, 2024 05:03
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i do appreciate people answering zechs or treize like their plan didn't go off perfectly master asia is the only correct answer
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Apr 3, 2024 05:11
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Tae posted:Japanese blu rays are always that expensive Honestly 120$ for a 50 episode anime isn't that bad. Don't some still charge like 40$ for every 4 episode disc?
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Apr 3, 2024 06:14
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Arc Hammer posted:The wannabe clown freak piloting the Gusion doesn't need apocalypse goals but he's still a crazy fucker who uses child soldiers. It's kinda hilarious how people keep trying to pull out doomsday weapons like mobile armours or dainsleifs. They're certainly nasty business but on a more immediate "fucks your mobile suits up pretty bad" level than a button that erases all existence, a photon torpedo, colony buster, murder coffin death star or psychic newtype shockwave. Even McGillis hauling out the Bael to try and instill some mythical symbol of justice that will rally people to his cause is met with little more than a "cute antique, boy." Yeah, even the superweapons in IBO are marked with a name, instead of "To Who it May Concern". It's another area with some pleasant contradiction, since the setting had the most widely cataclysmic war in Gundam (Sure, X and the UC might kill more people in its backstory, depending on 99 percent of Earth Vs. 25 percent of a colonized solar system, but it's hard to say The Moon Will Always Be There with how hosed up it got in the Calamity War.) but the superweapons we see in action have to be targeted towards one person in a MS, even if they kill one person an awful lot of times in a row. It's similar to how it's arguably the most high tech setting (well, aside from the lost tech in G-Reco and Turn A) with perpetual motion engines, artificial gravity, 200 plus year lifespans for the rich, and Mars terraformed to shirtsleeves conditions... but the show's focused on poor kids in the muck, and the most effective way to kill a hyper-advanced mech is to smash the pilot with a building sized hunk of metal.
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Apr 3, 2024 07:21
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Since we're talking about IBO it's time for my awful, not-asked-for, controversial, poo poo take. IBO ended too happy.
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Apr 3, 2024 09:57
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ninjewtsu posted:i do appreciate people answering zechs or treize like their plan didn't go off perfectly Well War happened again like what a year later which was not Treize’s plan.
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Apr 3, 2024 13:15
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MonsterEnvy posted:Well War happened again like what a year later which was not Treize’s plan. yeah treize's plan went off perfectly, and demonstrably did not accomplish its intended effects despite everything going exactly how he wanted it to almost like the problem with treize's plan was not whether or not he could succeed in executing it but the basic underlying concepts and assumptions being made
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Apr 3, 2024 13:24
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Just for fun I got to wondering where the city of Quinnharbour is likely located in WFM. Tge news reports in the show say much of the unrest is happening in North Africa. The Blu Ray release alters the text to a more specific "Southern Phoenicia" region. Southern Phoenicia would be the northeastern edge of Egypt, southern Isreal and the Sinai Peninsula. And then this shot of Miorine's shuttle is hanging out right above Egypt:  So where's a good place to put a big future harbour, then? Well, unless you were literally going to put Quinnharbour in Gaza, I'd think the most likely place would be Port Said at the mouth of the Suez Canal or Alexandria with the city built along Abukir Bay.   Of the two I'd say that Port Said is the more likely location than Alexandria, but neither city really looks like the futureworld slum town from the show outside of being vaguely suggestive of Africa or the middle east. Port Said's location makes it an economic hub which would make it a juicy spot for corporate interests. Also a fun thing. Episode 15 where the BG attacks the Dawn of Fold in Japan has a shot of them flying above Osaka Bay:  Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Apr 3, 2024 |
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Apr 3, 2024 14:50
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Argas posted:Still going to hate seed but that's my problem, not anyone else's. Still annoyed at the usual Gundam references becoming direct Gundam fanservice. At least when real world militaries invent dumb backronyms, the result is something. Zaku and Gouf aren't even pre-existing words in the seedverse. It'd make sense if it was one of the Gunpla series because fans can do whatever dumb poo poo they want (even air gunpla, as much as I hate that). Just as a reminder to everyone, Gundam Century, one of the first Gundam databooks, released in 1981, stated that the suit in mobile suit stands for "Space Utility Instruments Tactical". Which is just as ridiculous a backronym as any of the stupid poo poo Fukuda or Murosawa made for Gundam (or G.U.N.D.A.M.). Gundam Century posted:The "suit" in "mobile suit" is an acronym for "Space Utility Instruments Tactical." I suppose the words "mobile", "suit" and "armor" did pre-exist in UC, but those are still some painfully stupid backronyms regardless. ninjewtsu posted:yeah treize's plan went off perfectly, and demonstrably did not accomplish its intended effects despite everything going exactly how he wanted it to It didn't go off perfectly either, since the entire point was to have a huge war and there was a single battle that mostly involved unmanned mobile suits fighting 5 teenagers with attitude in the void of space that most people didn't even really know about because it was so far away. The Earth Alliance did send some troops under Treize, but it wasn't exactly a huge battle regardless and even then, Treize also wanted to have a personal duel with Zechs where he would presumably die, and Zechs just ignored him. Which is why he commit suicide by his second choice, Wufei; a truly ignoble fate for anyone. tsob fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Apr 3, 2024 |
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Apr 3, 2024 22:51
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My complaint isn't specifically the painfully stupid backronyms. They exist IRL and I can hate it fine/enjoy the fact that a lot of people had to read the paperwork before approving of it. Hell, even GUNDAM is fine because at least it has the word gun in it. I'm not going to condemn a long-running series named Gundam give a little nod to the name Gundam. I am going to be annoyed when they do that to a multitude of things like ZAKU, GOUF, and DOM. gently caress, for all we know BABI is an acronym too but thank god they just kind of made a low-effort hamfisted Hambrabi reference and never followed up on it. Heck, the original series has GINN and CGUE and GuAIZ but they also never pretend they're anything. I'm specifically annoyed at the needless unabashed unearned (hiss) fanservice that breaks my immersion. Argas fucked around with this message at 00:55 on Apr 4, 2024 |
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Apr 4, 2024 00:50
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If I cut off Orga's hairlick would he get a sunburn.
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Apr 4, 2024 00:58
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Argas posted:My complaint isn't specifically the painfully stupid backronyms. They exist IRL and I can hate it fine/enjoy the fact that a lot of people had to read the paperwork before approving of it. I can see it but honestly I feel that way about a lot of Gundam shows. Like to me the epitome of 'unearned fanservice' is where 00 Gundam ends with Setsuna F. Seiei murdering the NotRX-78-2 piloted by NotAmuro Ray. I get what it was going for but that was, to me, probably the most eyerolling thing the franchise has done.
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Apr 4, 2024 01:04
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It owned incredibly hard
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Apr 4, 2024 01:05
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Onmi posted:Since we're talking about IBO it's time for my awful, not-asked-for, controversial, poo poo take.  elaborate more, I am deeply curious
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Apr 4, 2024 01:14
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Nuebot posted:
Despite the tragedies, the world state is in a genuinely better and more optimistic place than when the series began. And the people who survived mostly have closure.
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Apr 4, 2024 01:17
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Nuebot posted:
Almost everyone survived in IBO's ending. The Gundam pilots and Orga died and that was sad but by and large they achieved their goals of protecting the people they care about. It was truly sad for those people but Tekkadan honestly ended up in better shape than like the AEUG in terms of long term survival. It's still a genuine tragedy but it feels defanged as much as humanly possible while still getting to the necessary ending, and you even have things like Iok getting a conveniently contrived comeuppance at the last second. It's certainly not a cheerful 100% victory everyone wins ending but it feels like it just barely crosses the line of 'truly awful tragedy' like it was going for. All the sympathetic and kind people survive and escape and it's only the warriors who prepared themselves to die in the first place who do so. (Like honestly I feel the most impactful part of the ending is Ride just fuckin' up and murdering Nobliss, and even that is 'REVENGE FOR ORGA")
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Apr 4, 2024 01:23
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This is Hush erasure and I will not stand for it.
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Apr 4, 2024 03:29
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Nuebot posted:
As the others have said, yeah, sure Orga and the Gundam Pilots died and they failed their dumbass King of Mars goal, but overall society is better, Mars has its independence, Human Debris will no longer be made. The mafia story ends with the mafia dead but overall things get better for the people underfoot in society... And it sucks. IBO didn't commit to the mafia movie, it didn't commit to being a tragedy. It had the villain win outright and then decide "Eh, I guess I'll also make society better, I don't need to, but gently caress it why not?" For me, it wanted its cake and to eat it too, and I believe there was debate among the staff (If I'm remembering the at-the-time talking) about whether or not it should be a complete downer or not.
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Apr 4, 2024 03:43
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I think it works as an incredibly cynical look at how positive social change is accomplished. The revolutionaries who shocked the world into action are maladjusted outsiders who end up dead in a heap and remembered as terrorists and murderers, and their enemies take all the credit for the reforms they fought tooth and nail against. Big Civil Rights Act vibes. If Tekkadan had failed entirely, that would have been too neat. Instead, the message is 'this is what success looks like'.
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Apr 4, 2024 03:51
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Darth Walrus posted:I think it works as an incredibly cynical look at how positive social change is accomplished. The revolutionaries who shocked the world into action are maladjusted outsiders who end up dead in a heap and remembered as terrorists and murderers, and their enemies take all the credit for the reforms they fought tooth and nail against. Big Civil Rights Act vibes. Yeah, it gets more depressing when you realize how realistic the situation is when divorced from genre trappings.
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Apr 4, 2024 03:54
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Onmi posted:As the others have said, yeah, sure Orga and the Gundam Pilots died and they failed their dumbass King of Mars goal, but overall society is better, Mars has its independence, Human Debris will no longer be made. The mafia story ends with the mafia dead but overall things get better for the people underfoot in society... And it sucks. The villain did need to improve society somewhat though. Tekkadan had shown how fragile Gjallarhorn had become. By liberalizing society he reduced future the chance of future rebellions.
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Apr 4, 2024 04:05
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Yeah, removing human debris from the equation is outwardly a positive humanitarian move, but in terms of realpolitik it's removing an infinite supply of cannon fodder slave soldiers that literally anyone can amass from the equation and further monopolizing and concentrating all significant military force under the central government. Nobliss's death in the epilogue is notable because he's one of the slimiest fuckers in the show and survived the entire reformation entirely scot free and in a position of power, and only suffers the consequences he does because a group of terrorist assassins murders him rather than because the new status quo has any interest in punishing people like him.
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Apr 4, 2024 04:40
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ImpAtom posted:Almost everyone survived in IBO's ending. The Gundam pilots and Orga died and that was sad but by and large they achieved their goals of protecting the people they care about. It was truly sad for those people but Tekkadan honestly ended up in better shape than like the AEUG in terms of long term survival. It's still a genuine tragedy but it feels defanged as much as humanly possible while still getting to the necessary ending, and you even have things like Iok getting a conveniently contrived comeuppance at the last second. It's been so long I forgot there were characters besides the gundam pilots and Mika's wives. I suppose I should rewatch the show once I finish Turn A.
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Apr 4, 2024 04:47
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Darth Walrus posted:I think it works as an incredibly cynical look at how positive social change is accomplished. The revolutionaries who shocked the world into action are maladjusted outsiders who end up dead in a heap and remembered as terrorists and murderers, and their enemies take all the credit for the reforms they fought tooth and nail against. Big Civil Rights Act vibes. I absolutely see that point of view but I disagree entirely. For me, personally, I felt it was cheap. It was "These people are still alive because you'd be sad if they were all dead." Like if you killed Kudelia and all of the other members of Tekkaden, then sure... but no they didn't, and they didn't because it would be too much of a downer. I feel like they cowarded out. Your point would resonate more if Kudelia and Atra and everyone else had died, or if they were outcasts, and it truly was reform built on the bones of the dead who actually wanted it, used by their opponents. Cleaning up the Human Debris helps Gjallahorn, but let's not act like that's not also presented in a positive light. And that is going back to what I've said before. The show isn't trying to show the ending as this horrible thing where the protagonists have been crushed and their hopes turned against them. The theme of the show is not "Your oppressors will always win, there's nothing you can do, society as a whole is untouchable" It wanted a downer ending, and then it didn't want the downer ending to be TOO downer. As I said before all this, I understand this is my awful take. I am not saying that it's not a downer ending. I feel like it should have been worse, and they cowarded out.
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Apr 4, 2024 06:57
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i think one of the final shots of the show was lingering on the grave while kudelia's narration said "and no one will remember the group of kids who died making this future for us" or something to that effect, i felt like that take was clearly the intention of the ending if nothing else
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Apr 4, 2024 07:09
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ninjewtsu posted:i think one of the final shots of the show was lingering on the grave while kudelia's narration said "and no one will remember the group of kids who died making this future for us" or something to that effect, i felt like that take was clearly the intention of the ending if nothing else Yeah, it's sad. I'm not arguing the show has a happy ending. I'm arguing it has a bittersweet ending or a sad ending with some level of hope or light. I wanted a harrowing, soul-crushing, miserable ending where there was no hope or any light, or any sweetness to the bitterness. I wanted ash in my mouth. I wanted a bleak darkness of which there was no escape, the vanta dark ending. Like the argument I am making, and my point, is absolutely not "This is a happy ending" it's no... it's a sad, dark ending... and it should have been even worse IMO. Also, Iok dying the way he did? Deserved, makes sense, and fits the character. But also absolutely served up for the viewer for some catharsis.
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Apr 4, 2024 07:19
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Gripweed posted:The villain did need to improve society somewhat though. Tekkadan had shown how fragile Gjallarhorn had become. By liberalizing society he reduced future the chance of future rebellions. It's also something that completely fits with what characterization we got for Rustal prior, including his big speech. He's got a lot of the same DNA as Vetinari, but as an antagonist in a less comedic setting. That is, he's a firm believer that "They think they want good government and justice for all, Vimes, yet what is it they really crave, deep in their hearts? Only that things go on as normal and tomorrow is pretty much like today." He doesn't care as much about the specifics of the system as he does that it's stable and more-or-less suited to the general will of the public. Setting off a war with false flag attacks and conducting major political reforms are both acceptable routes to that goal. He's less interesting as a person and as an antagonist if he's just going to twirl his mustache and make everything worse after winning. Edit: It is the case that the last five episodes were adjusted for a lighter ending, though, yes. Writers wanted something to balance viewer investment, so they talked to the director about toning down the original plan. (This came after the producer had gone "I love it! Maybe Kudelia can die too? Just spitballing.") chiasaur11 fucked around with this message at 08:00 on Apr 4, 2024 |
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Apr 4, 2024 07:49
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Onmi posted:Yeah, it's sad. I'm not arguing the show has a happy ending. I'm arguing it has a bittersweet ending or a sad ending with some level of hope or light. I wanted a harrowing, soul-crushing, miserable ending where there was no hope or any light, or any sweetness to the bitterness. I wanted ash in my mouth. I wanted a bleak darkness of which there was no escape, the vanta dark ending. What about the show's writing or story would have warranted this "vanta dark" ending? The show's entire tone throughout was a fairly varied mixture of good things happening and bad things happening, with the ending being tonally consistent with that. It's never a hopelessly bleak show.
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Apr 4, 2024 09:14
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Kanos posted:What about the show's writing or story would have warranted this "vanta dark" ending? The show's entire tone throughout was a fairly varied mixture of good things happening and bad things happening, with the ending being tonally consistent with that. It's never a hopelessly bleak show. Agreed
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Apr 4, 2024 10:15
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Kanos posted:What about the show's writing or story would have warranted this "vanta dark" ending? The show's entire tone throughout was a fairly varied mixture of good things happening and bad things happening, with the ending being tonally consistent with that. It's never a hopelessly bleak show. I told you it was my poo poo take. Nothing, beyond the fact that the ending they chose to go for was one in which the villains won, and the 'mafia story' theme there is no reason. I am not saying I am correct. I am not saying IBO has a bad ending. I am saying what I wanted, wasn't what we got. Like I have absolutely no reason following the themes of the show to want it to be the most miserable, depressing, horrible bad end. And yet, when I watched it, separate from my analytical brain was the feeling "This poo poo is too happy." Even though it was still really sad. And it's... I don't like dark endings, I don't like bad ends. I like happy endings. So it's not like I enjoy misery porn or want it to be miserable for my own enjoyment. There is just a part of my brain that is like "This story ended too happily and I cannot accept the good moments presented in this ending. Even understanding that this serves the villains and isn't just them taking the L for no reason."
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Apr 4, 2024 10:57
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I see the ending more as a Pyrrhic victory for Tekkadan, they no longer exist, but their goals are mostly reached in the end. Rustal did profit personally, but that is him being able to position himself properly in the power vacuum that happened; one Tekkadan very much helped create.
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Apr 4, 2024 11:35
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If we had genuinely gotten a bad ending where everyone died and nothing changed, I would've felt like I wasted my time watching this show, that kept stringing me on for so many episodes only to tell me it was completely worthless. It may have trumped AGE in my lists of terrible Gundam. It's my favourite Gundam show to date. The ending is a big part of it. Could it have killed more good guys? Maybe, but it wouldn't have changed a bit beyond making it grimdark for the sake of being grimdark. It's an ending that fits the show perfectly, and it's bittersweet enough to not feel out of place with the tone the rest of the show had, that was never KILL EVERYONE NOTHING CAN BE FIXED like the worst Tomino stereotype you could think of.
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Apr 4, 2024 14:13
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Yeah, I think having a little bittersweet catharsis is a good thing, especially for a show like IBO
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Apr 4, 2024 14:17
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i think whichever way it went it wouldn't have affected my overall opinion of the show, assuming the same level of competence in execution either path would've been valid really, for the kind of show that ibo was and where its story was headed
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Apr 4, 2024 15:08
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iok dying should not be removed in any version though, and if anything the ending would've been better with a longer, more drawn out to the point of being really uncomfortable iok death
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Apr 4, 2024 15:11
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ninjewtsu posted:iok dying should not be removed in any version though, and if anything the ending would've been better with a longer, more drawn out to the point of being really uncomfortable iok death All the surviving Tekkadan members lining up for a go like the hysterical woman scene in Airplane.
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Apr 4, 2024 15:12
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There should have been a Blue Danube Waltz montage of Iok getting killed with various blunt weapons.
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Apr 4, 2024 15:12
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I'd watch an OVA that was just Iok getting killed in increasingly brutal ways by the entire cast.
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Apr 4, 2024 15:17
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Oh to be clear... Iok dying was the most cathartic thing I ever experienced in that show. If I smoked I'd have needed one. It's a short fuckin' list of "The people who I wanted to die as badly in Gundam."
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Apr 4, 2024 15:21
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this wasn't really the vibe i was going for but i'm down for this too i guess lol
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Apr 4, 2024 15:23
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