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Saitorr posted:Eh um excuse me I am too personally invested in Wasteland 2 to allow any criticism so I will ignore your points and make poo poo up. i haven't even played the game, i just don't think that any of the criticism is really valid. the things Arglebargle complained about are all actually stuff i liked in the old games, not stuff i'd want to get rid of. i guess that's what the developers thought too.
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Nov 26, 2014 20:25
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JawKnee posted:This is really true in general even if most of your party is only 4 int with one or two 8+ int chars, you're only starved for skills prior to about half-way through act 2, yeah.
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Nov 26, 2014 20:28
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Dyna Soar posted:i haven't even played the game, i just don't think that any of the criticism is really valid. the things Arglebargle complained about are all actually stuff i liked in the old games, not stuff i'd want to get rid of. i guess that's what the developers thought too. If you haven't played the game you cannot reasonably determine if the criticism is valid or not. When people say the UI isn't very good, that the map is confusing, literally no one is saying "oh, but in the 90s ui also sucked, it's an homage".
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Nov 26, 2014 20:52
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Dyna Soar posted:i haven't even played the game, i just don't think that any of the criticism is really valid. the things Arglebargle complained about are all actually stuff i liked in the old games, not stuff i'd want to get rid of. i guess that's what the developers thought too. I have played the first half of the game, I even had fun. I did read about character creation before starting, but that was because I had been warned beforehand. What would have really bothered me if I hadn't is the character trap design (player options that are inferior to other options available), specifically for a long game like this where the trap doesn't become apparent until much later on. I don't enjoy restarting a game and playing the same sections multiple times. I 100% agree that character traps are 90s (70s?) era game design and acknowledge that some people like it, and that is perfectly valid. I still think it is a fair criticism for people to say it's a bad design, and I don't think it's integral to making a game that reminds people of the 90s. The main point I am trying to make is that this game wasn't made in 1994, even if it was meant to feel like it was.
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Nov 26, 2014 20:56
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Comte de Saint-Germain posted:If you haven't played the game you cannot reasonably determine if the criticism is valid or not. When people say the UI isn't very good, that the map is confusing, literally no one is saying "oh, but in the 90s ui also sucked, it's an homage". but he didn't complain about the map or the ui or any technical stuff. he complained that some skills aren't as useful as others. or maybe it was that the game allows you to play the game with a subpar team without warning you? or maybe it's the lack of a tutorial that tells you what kind of a team you should make? those all sound like something i'd like. he also complained that the best energy weapon is in a hard to find place. sound cool, best part of the old games was exploration and maybe replayability. oh and his last complaint was that the starting area isn't to his liking. well tough poo poo.
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Nov 26, 2014 20:58
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Fair enough
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Nov 26, 2014 21:07
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Well at the very least I will update with JawKnee's "these are skills OK" post because it has clearly been long enough now that we basically have a consensus on what to focus on if you want to be Very Useful(tm). Though it is also worth noting (which I will note) that Safecracking is basically always for loot whereas Lockpicking is more frequently for bypassing combat or otherwise advancing the story in alternate ways. Also worth noting that Wasteland 2 is still awesome (Though I have a feeling at this rate that I will complete the game on approximately July 7, 2015) As for the ongoing controversy, I do think they probably should have pushed the THIS GAME PLAYS LIKE 1988 OORAH angle a little more given how that has been one of the primary criticisms overall. Maybe if people knew it was supposed to feel in at least some part like the sequel they would have made in the 1990s if they had been able...they would understand what they were getting into more.
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Nov 27, 2014 00:46
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Quarex posted:Well at the very least I will update with JawKnee's "these are skills OK" post because it has clearly been long enough now that we basically have a consensus on what to focus on if you want to be Very Useful(tm). JawKnee posted:Skills to skip: JawKnee posted:Alarm disarm (5 or 6 should do you) JawKnee posted:Outdoorsman (6-7 is fine) JawKnee posted:Weaponsmithing (6-7 is fine) JawKnee posted:Perception (6-7 is fine, though late game may require more for traps) JawKnee posted:Medic JawKnee posted:Demolitions (max it if you take it though, for traps on boxes/safes) JawKnee posted:All 3 rear end skills JawKnee posted:ONE weapon skill (two is overkill, you will end up using 1 primarily anyhow) Welp that's all that I can think of right now Tin Tim fucked around with this message at 01:15 on Nov 27, 2014 |
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Nov 27, 2014 01:01
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I disagree with the notion of trap skills. The game is pretty easy and offers multiple ways to get around problems. For example even though I consider safecracking must have, everything you get from safes is basically garbage anyway. You don't even really need to max your weapon skills because your chance to hit gets really high fast. In other words, you don't really need to be very optimal even though it may feel like it at times.
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Nov 27, 2014 01:43
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Dyna Soar posted:he also complained that the best energy weapon is in a hard to find place. sound cool, best part of the old games was exploration and maybe replayability. Defend the encounter design in ag center. Also, just going from the first page that the only energy weapon worth getting is locked behind a single high level toaster repair test. Not best. Only. The implication being that if you took energy weapons expecting the game to actually contain energy weapons, gently caress you. Maybe the first page is wrong? But seriously, defend that encounter design in ag center without resorting to "it's supposed to be an unrewarding slog"
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Nov 27, 2014 01:44
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I just gave up about 3 quarters into the Ag center, it was just that bad. I suppose I'll give this game another shot in a couple years when it's been modded to hell and back to remove or lessen the un-fun crap.
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Nov 27, 2014 02:26
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Highpool for lyfe, gently caress Ag Center, gently caress Rose, gently caress whoever that lovely woman on the radio is
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Nov 27, 2014 02:27
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I should have done the Agricultural Center instead of Highpool just so I could see if I felt it was defensible. Certainly going there after Highpool it was so easy as to be eye-rolling, but I am sure that is the point. I was wondering earlier if, and I seriously doubt this but still, they designed the difficulty of those two areas to map to their relative difficulty in the first game, as a coded Siren's song to people who played the first game? Probably they just decided mutated things were tougher though.
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Nov 27, 2014 02:53
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Quarex posted:I should have done the Agricultural Center instead of Highpool just so I could see if I felt it was defensible. I went to Highpool but nothing is as unfun as fighting those slow high HP blobmen. Yay it takes me ages to kill them for no reason and they take forever to do their turns hurrah
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Nov 27, 2014 03:04
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Ag Center is a truly terrible map. The whole thing is a tedious slog, and then at the end after you've turned the final valve and think you're done, you're inexplicably confronted by eight exploding pod people who just appear out of the ether. It's not a hard encounter, but it still manages to feel like a big gently caress you, like the map wants to punch you in the dick one last time before you move on to greener pastures.
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Nov 27, 2014 05:13
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Arglebargle III posted:Defend the encounter design in ag center. well i'm pretty sure there are other energy weapons in the game besides that one. from what i understand, energy weapons are supposed to do less damage on low armoured enemies, making them useful only on highly armoured ones. now that's a kind of a weird design concept, altho it kinda depends if it's balanced properly. i guess it's not. this all would be fixable just by lowering the armour threshold on all energy weapons. maybe they will patch it in if it's that bad. Arglebargle III posted:But seriously, defend that encounter design in ag center without resorting to "it's supposed to be an unrewarding slog" i haven't played it. too bad you don't like it.
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Nov 27, 2014 06:36
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AG is a terrible map, Rail Nomads is a terrible map, Titan is a terrible map with horrendously counter intuitive/anti fun design decisions. Do you seriously have to make the entire map hostile if you want to side with the Diamondbacks? You go all the way to the brotherhood camp and they don't even let you explore underground, and then you can't when you get back from their mission? That's some bullshit. Most of the smaller areas are pretty good but the only places I really enjoyed were Highpool and the path up to the prison. I wasn't enjoying Damonta at all due to the terrible, endless combat so I gave up. I feel like I got my $15 worth though. It was most fun in the beginning when you were struggling to survive. Once you get the better weapons (but not the next tier of better weapons because gently caress you you don't have enough AP so you only get one shot instead of 2 now) the combat just becomes tedious beyond belief.
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Nov 27, 2014 08:32
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I feel like the only one here who found the AG centre quite easy and actually enjoyed it. Am I doing something wrong?
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Nov 27, 2014 10:03
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ElectroMagneticJosh posted:I feel like the only one here who found the AG centre quite easy and actually enjoyed it. Am I doing something wrong? apparently you're too emotionally invested in the game to allow any criticism and jus making poo poo up Dyna Soar fucked around with this message at 10:11 on Nov 27, 2014 |
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Nov 27, 2014 10:06
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I haven't done Ag Center since the beta, but Damonta and the Canyon of Titan really weren't too bad, you can avoid quite a few encounters by playing intelligently. That said, the game's combat system is simplistic and highly dependent on the encounter design, so the right choice would have been to go for fewer, carefully designed encounters. Game's pacing suffers a lot because they decided to opt for a high encounter rate instead.
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Nov 27, 2014 10:18
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Saitorr posted:I have played the first half of the game, I even had fun. I did read about character creation before starting, but that was because I had been warned beforehand. I think you're misunderstanding what this game is trying to be. Have you played fallout 2, jagged alliance 2 or the original wasteland? Or wizardry 8, or any of these old, sprawling and deep rpg's? the so called "character trap" is an integral part of these games. If you make a non-combat character, you'll most likely have a hard time in combat situations. You can make a specialist character who's expertise is relatively narrow, and the game is still perfectly playable. You might have an easier time with a more well rounded character, or a character who uses specific, powerful equipment, but that's your choice. This game let's you create multiple characters, and the character creation can be intimidating, sure. But it's a big part of the game, and is meant to be spent some time with. This is a part of the game many people enjoy, including myself. Now if you think it's outdated, fine, it probably is. But then again InXile promised to make a spiritual successor to those old, outdated 90s games. And guess what, they got almost 3 million from backers like me who want just that.
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Nov 27, 2014 10:22
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I never thought I'd see the day when people actually defend character traps but, well here we are.
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Nov 27, 2014 10:27
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Finished this today. Checked my ranger center page to watch the vids and noticed I had overlooked the special backer skill you get from Cpl. Solveig this entire time  . Some stray thoughts:- 10 Int on all my dudes was probably overkill. I'd say I had maxed all my practical needs by mid 30's a bit into California by focusing on only about 4 or 5 skills per Ranger and Rose. I eventually maxed out all possible skills and ended up taking a bunch of redundant weapon skills just for shits and giggles. If I had to redo it, I would have taken the more overlooked skills early on or gone with less Int. - I should have spread out lockpick, demolition, safecrack, computer, and brute force between the party instead of focusing those skills on one or two members because then it would give everyone opportunities to earn EXP outside of combat. Perception and demolition are really the only skills that benefit from being paired up on the same person. - I never once had a need to use Antivenom and I think I used Antibiotics only a few times. Meanwhile, I found that fractures and concussions were slightly more common status effects yet there weren't any items for them. As a result, surgeon didn't feel particularly useful for me outside of when it was used in quests because my dudes probably died a handful of times total. - Healing upon level up is standard fare in RPGs but the frequency of gaining levels and the boatloads of health you get (with the standard 4 STR) in the game kind of diminished the importance of Field Medic as well. I was really surprised at the little amount of healing required (playing on Ranger difficulty) and had a ton of leftover medic packs. - Any concern I had about money went away after ranger citadel was open to me because turning in broken weapon parts to the quartermaster was way too profitable. I cleaned him out without really trying just from scrapping most weapon drops. Similarly, that one merchant in the Rail Nomads who gives you a super steep discount took care of all my ammo needs after that point. Even without grinding, the economy was super broken for me before ever leaving Arizona. I could immediately buy whatever I pleased at any shop in California and I still ended the game with about 50K. - After a certain point, Weaponsmithing is a bigger boon to have than just more weapon skill. Having long barrels and chokes, not to mention magazines that removed jamming chances, had a much more dramatic effect on my team's combat effectiveness than just increasing their individual accuracy % with more weapon skill. - Shotguns were really uneven in effectiveness throughout my game. Early on, you're better off with the standard shotgun because the various 2-shot guns were never enough to outright kill things and meant you'd alternate your rounds firing and then reloading. The turnaround is when you get the Over Under because then you could actually fire off 2 shots and reload it in the same turn. Of course, the endgame Jackhammer almost makes up for it all, but there was a stretch where my shotgunner didn't contribute much. - I found pistols and SMGs great to pair with Energy Weapons as it gives you the flexibility to hit low armor targets, which there will always be some of in combat. Their armor threshhold never really fell behind enough for them to not do at least some damage. There's actually a pretty decent unique SMG in the endgame that holds its own as well. - It's been said before in the thread but I had to find out for myself that Heavy Weapons are abysmal. They are so outclassed by every other weapon type that it's not even funny. Being able to support weapon mods or maybe removing the jam chance would go a long way but even then they'd be hard to justify using. Outside of a few annoying bugs that eventually got patched out or could be rectified with a character editor, I enjoyed the game immensely. Certainly the most satisfied I've been with any of my Kickstarter games. Really looking forward to Torment now.
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Nov 27, 2014 10:29
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Prokhor Zakharov posted:I never thought I'd see the day when people actually defend character traps but, well here we are. inherent flaw in these kinds of rpg's 
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Nov 27, 2014 10:50
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Dyna Soar posted:well i'm pretty sure there are other energy weapons in the game besides that one. from what i understand, energy weapons are supposed to do less damage on low armoured enemies, making them useful only on highly armoured ones. now that's a kind of a weird design concept, altho it kinda depends if it's balanced properly. i guess it's not. this all would be fixable just by lowering the armour threshold on all energy weapons. maybe they will patch it in if it's that bad. Dyna Soar posted:apparently you're too emotionally invested in the game to allow any criticism and jus making poo poo up Dyna Soar posted:I think you're misunderstanding what this game is trying to be. Have you played fallout 2, jagged alliance 2 or the original wasteland? Or wizardry 8, or any of these old, sprawling and deep rpg's? the so called "character trap" is an integral part of these games. If you make a non-combat character, you'll most likely have a hard time in combat situations. You can make a specialist character who's expertise is relatively narrow, and the game is still perfectly playable. You might have an easier time with a more well rounded character, or a character who uses specific, powerful equipment, but that's your choice. Dyna Soar posted:i haven't played it. too bad you don't like it. Why are you in this thread? Why are you discussing an experience you haven't had with people who have? Dyna Soar posted:they got almost 3 million from backers like me Oh.
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Nov 27, 2014 11:52
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I'm sure there are ppl who agree with me who have played the game. I've got it installed and i'll play it as soon as I have free time. that said, I think you expected this game to be something it's not. that's cool, it's a niche product that couldn't have been made without kickstarter. it's certainly not for everyone. Dyna Soar fucked around with this message at 12:11 on Nov 27, 2014 |
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Nov 27, 2014 12:04
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Quarex posted:I should have done the Agricultural Center instead of Highpool just so I could see if I felt it was defensible. I went Ag center first and really I don't see the issue, the only part that I really disliked were the overpowered rabbit encounter that I only managed to survive after reloading from a previous save, gotten lucky in drops from a chest and gotten a rocket launcher and even then it took three tries to get through it.
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Nov 27, 2014 12:15
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Not sure if it has been mentioned but this is on sale on Steam for £22.50 UK monies... It was just the chance I've been waiting for
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Nov 27, 2014 13:43
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Ag Center was a lot more fun after I went to Rails Nomads and got Ralphy (and Scotchmo) first. Also, just cheat the gently caress out of your characters and give them a couple extra stat points, there's no real reason not to. I just want the fast run speed/skill check and weapon balance mod (which both serve to make the game way, way better) that were broken by the last update. Again. I actually wish they'd stop updating so I could actually finish the game, and just leave it to the modders.
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Nov 27, 2014 13:51
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GlyphGryph posted:I actually wish they'd stop updating so I could actually finish the game, and just leave it to the modders. I.. don't? The game still has bugs and performance problems, and it'd be great if some issues with the weapon balance were ironed out for everyone, rather than only for the guys who use a third-party mod.
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Nov 27, 2014 14:00
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Fair Bear Maiden posted:I.. don't? The game still has bugs and performance problems, and it'd be great if some issues with the weapon balance were ironed out for everyone, rather than only for the guys who use a third-party mod. I don't think they plan on changing that bit. They've not said they will anyway. And hey, everyone can use third party mods! This is supposed to be like a game from the 90s, right? Fallout, Morrowind, Duke Nukem - the 90s were an era of games that were greatly improved by the modding community adding the polish, stability, and content a game really needed in order to shine.
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Nov 27, 2014 14:04
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remember that disappearing trunk from fo2?
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Nov 27, 2014 14:13
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Fredrik1 posted:I went Ag center first and really I don't see the issue, the only part that I really disliked were the overpowered rabbit encounter that I only managed to survive after reloading from a previous save, gotten lucky in drops from a chest and gotten a rocket launcher and even then it took three tries to get through it. Imho Ag Center and Rail Nomads were a slog because they were huge and just. Wouldn't. End. Otherwise I had no problems with the map design, but those two were really poo poo.
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Nov 27, 2014 15:56
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Ag Center was definitely the worst for me, especially since the "puzzles" were so dumb and the combat was both constant and incredibly boring and easy. The reason it was better after visiting Nomads first was that it meant I could kill everyone right away. This wasn't helped by the fact that the first time I did it I avoided killing any pod people at all, since I thought you could help them. Even without that it's pretty bad though. Especially since the "solution" to the "deadly poison corridors" is to... walk through the poison. I really thought there was gonna be more to that. Especially in the second corridor with the doors and switches, but where it turned out the door doesn't do anything except give you access to a place you already need to walk through as much fog to get to without the door. I didn't think Rails nomad was that bad, but I didn't actually fight many people in Rails Nomad which might be why. I liked Rails nomad, even if it was vastly improved by the run speed mod.
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Nov 27, 2014 16:04
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I enjoyed AG center to a large extent, it was frustrating at times because it wasnt allways 100% clear what to do, and there was the incident of the isometric camera angle obscuring a neccesary door ( ).To me it just seemed really reminiscent of old RPG levels which tickled a nice little nostalgia itch, i was constantly short on ammo so had to be a bit careful about the whole thing so it felt a bit challenging. As compared to rail nomads it suffers a lot less from the map being awful, i had real trouble finding whats what in the rail nomads area, and it is just so far from one side to the other, whereas Ag center is a pretty linear progression with a lot less backtracking.
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Nov 27, 2014 16:29
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I can certainly agree that the hate for Rail Nomads makes no sense to me. I even went there before Highpool or Agricultural Center, and thought the combats were pretty awesomely challenging (which makes sense as they are clearly supposed to be for after you get a few promotions). Plus I did not find it the least bit challenging to navigate on the overworld map, though I suppose if I did not check the map so frequently I and only looked once I had been everywhere it might have been harder ... but who does that?!?!
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Nov 27, 2014 19:43
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Quarex posted:I can certainly agree that the hate for Rail Nomads makes no sense to me. I even went there before Highpool or Agricultural Center, and thought the combats were pretty awesomely challenging (which makes sense as they are clearly supposed to be for after you get a few promotions). Plus I did not find it the least bit challenging to navigate on the overworld map, though I suppose if I did not check the map so frequently I and only looked once I had been everywhere it might have been harder ... but who does that?!?! I liked it too. Big with lots of stuff to see, I don't get the complaints; but then I also hate hate hate rpg's that just shuttle you through small set-piece areas where every character is expected to be big and important and plot driving - it gets boring and predictable.
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Nov 27, 2014 21:19
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The Ag Center slog complaints I understand. It's just... a lot of mediocre content in between the good bits. The "boss mission" is a bunch of a random rabbits eating cows. (There's an actual legit boss after that but he's comparatively a pushover, if you can beat the rabbits you can beat him) But yeah, never had any trouble navigating in Rails Nomad, thought it was pretty straightforward. I barely even used the map, it just wasn't a complicated place to navigate. And you meet some awesome characters. Scotchmo really does have such a tragic past. Poor guy. Definitely best character.
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Nov 27, 2014 21:40
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I liked the rail nomads camp as well, I didn't like that it took so long traveling from one side of the map to the other but that's the only negative I can think of.
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Nov 27, 2014 21:47
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I liked (most) of the content in rail nomads, and while I never got lost I did think that the spatial relationships between areas was somewhat confusing. But I tend to place the blame for that on the UI, there's nothing fundamentally wrong with the layout.
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Nov 28, 2014 10:42
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